Rand and Moridin - Saidin Sickness and the Body Swap

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well ... I don't really buy that for the "Red on black" ... I mean, so many other times it comes right out and says "blood on the rocks".

 

But hey, we'll find out, won't we.

[cloglord]

I don't expect to change your mind Robert but according to the encyclopedia WOT there are only 3 mentions of blood on the rocks in reference to prophecy. Once, the one I quoted from and the one that is most complete, comes from Thom in TGH. The other two, are just related by another character, an in passing, once in TDR and another time in TSR.

 

The passage I quoted is prefeaced by Thom by a bit of discussion about how things can lose quite a bit of meaning when translated from the old toungue, to high chant, and then to common. In Fact Thom even suggests that the pcing of the propheciy he is about to quote could be off.

 

It's not that far of a stretch to go from "Red on black, the dragon's blood stains the rocks of shayol Ghul" to "Red on Black and the dragon's blood stains the rocks of shayol ghul." Especially considering the nearly 2500 odd years since the prophecy was foretold, and the time that we get it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

While your statements regarding the often unreliable nature of translations are correct, if we take that route, then any and everything is open to interpretation. You make some issue of the fact that:

 

It's not that far of a stretch to go from "Red on black, the dragon's blood stains the rocks of shayol Ghul" to "Red on Black and the dragon's blood stains the rocks of shayol ghul."

 

Well lets be honest here ... there are alot of sentences that could be changed by placing an extra "and" or "the" or "not" in them. But with three references as you said to that specific phrasing, along with the Aelfinn's answer (To live you must die), and the fact that the Fisher icon is specifically carved as bleeding ... there's just too much that points to Rand, bleeding on Shayol Ghul. And lets go with the whole translation here ...

 

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

 

(The Great Hunt, chapter 26, quoted from the Kraethon Cycle)

 

It mentions blood three times, and ties it to a location twice. Red on black is a preface to that double correlation, and perfectly fits it as well. Blood is red, and Shayol Ghul is black. Sometimes a horse really is a horse.

 

If you look for a way to force what is there fit your theory, you will find it. But in order to reach whats really there, you have to reverse that process. The books give no reason to stick in an extraneous "and". Only your theory does that.

 

But, ultimately, we'll see in aMoL. Jordan might leave some threads hanging, but I doubt that will be one of them ....

[cloglord]

Robert,

First, it is not my theory, it is Lucker's. I am not trying to make anything fit anything. As my original post indicated, I noticed another possible interpretation of that prophecy, that I thought helped to reinforce Lucker's theory. Especially taken in context of the rest of that stanza.

 

Bottom line, I think that Lucker's bodyswap theory makes it much more likely for Rand to be able to enter the pit of Dhoom, as this prophecy suggests he will. Since Lucker's theory involves the one person granted unquestioned access to the DO, and since that person's colors happen to be Red on Black, I find this to be an plausible interpretation of prophecy.

 

I'm not saying its right. I'm not saying I believe it. I thought it was an interesting perspective on a prophecy we've had since nearly the beggining. You have to admit that if RJ was giving us clues about Moridin's involvement at shayol ghul, clear back in TGH, it's pretty frickin cool.

[RobertAlexWillis]

First, it is not my theory, it is Lucker's. I am not trying to make anything fit anything.

 

Actually, by putting forward ways in which you thought it would apply, you are doing exactly that. Its not evil or anything, but it is what you are doing. And I'm very aware of the source of the theory, as Luckers and I have discussed it fairly extensively on these boards.

 

Especially taken in context of the rest of that stanza.

 

My point is that the context of the rest of the stanza actually does not support it.

 

Bottom line, I think that Lucker's bodyswap theory makes it much more likely for Rand to be able to enter the pit of Dhoom, as this prophecy suggests he will. Since Lucker's theory involves the one person granted unquestioned access to the DO, and since that person's colors happen to be Red on Black, I find this to be an plausible interpretation of prophecy.

 

That assumes that the Dark One would be fooled by a body swap, since he controls access to the Pit of Doom personally (remember the stone spikes). Even if the body swap does occur, I just don't see Shai'tan being tricked by it, and therefore, I don't see Rand getting access to the Pit of Doom simply because of a body switch.

 

You have to admit that if RJ was giving us clues about Moridin's involvement at shayol ghul, clear back in TGH, it's pretty frickin cool.

 

If it was the case ... well, it would indicate that he thought way ahead ... I'm not sure I would personally consider it "cool" since I think the whole body switch thing would be really lame, and that it would make the bad guys less "cool" if they got fooled by such a thing.

[cloglord]

How else to you propose that Rand will manage to make it into the pit of dhoom? Channelling is a death sentence, and as you, and I, have both pointed out the DO has complete control of his physical surroundings, IE the stone fangs.

 

Just to be persnickety, the rocks of shayol ghul are not ever described as black. At least not in the whole trip by Demandred in the prolouge to LoC. Inky rivulets, inky black cloaks, but never black rocks of shayol ghul. I'm not saying they aren't, personally I visualize them to be, but it never says they are. The closest it comes is describing the molten stone lake in the pit of dhoom as "red mottled with black."

 

Would you like the idea better, if after the body swap occurs, if it does, that Rand in Moridin clothing, picks up the mortally wounded Ishy in Rand's clothing and carries him down into the pit of dhoom? Two souls, two bodies in close proximity, who could blame the DO for not noticing who's soul was in who's body?

 

I'm not trying to MAKE anything fit, I'm merely pointing out something that MIGHT.

[RobertAlexWillis]

OK. I think it completely does not fit. But hey, thats just my opinion. We'll see if Jordan agrees in about 2 years.

[Mat is the Boss]

I don`t believe that the DO could hold Rand out of the Pit of Doom, if Rand had the remaining Choedan Kal in his hand, and wanted to get in. If the DO tried to make the mountain fall down on his head, Rand would just turn it into dust or something, and let it blow away on the winds of victory :lol: