Verin (Full Book Spoilers)

[Sharaman]

200-odd sisters, not 50.

Lots of experiments in dreamtime -enough to have abstracted all Coreanin's notes and lots of dream ter'angreal and picked up mysterious wounds and survived.

Connections with Aiel WOs - they gave her enough room for her to have used compulsion on their prisoners.

A BA network spanning both WT and rebels. 

Stretch to assume Verin doesn't know about dreaming.

Enough at least to know Egwene is in touch with the Rebels.

 

The stretch isn't that Verin knows that dreaming is actively being studied again, the stretch is that she knows the details of what can be done. dreamwalking cannot be done by anyone but forsaken, and is not discussed by Aiel. Dreamspeaking requires her to have the foresight to ask whether a dreamer can do so under the influence of forkroot. You're assuming a depth of knowledge in Verin on a subject that is very low on her priority list, and that IS a stretch. Being a Brown doesn't mean you know everything, nor does being a Black mean you can make an information withdrawal at the nearest BA library on demand.

There are 20-odd rebels and quite a few women in the Tower who already know what Egwene is capable of. You think it is a stretch that Verin, who has had "a peripheral interest" in TAR for decades and actually gave her the dream ter'angreal and knows about her dreamer status hasn't talked to any of them. Some of the rebels (including Black sisters) also know exactly how Egwene came to Salidar through TAR.

You consider it unlikely that Verin would have talked to any of them. Even though she says she's kept track of what's going on between AS factions and stayed out of it.

Cool

But you don't think it's a stretch that she would have worked out Messaana and then, lie about this, and conceal it, for some reason, at the moment of her death and thus risk her life's work being compromised.

Cool. 

 

[mossman87]

Impossible. You can't heal the dead. To heal the dead, you have to not only heal their body of its injuries, but if there is no soul left, if it has already left to be reincarnated at a later date, then it isn't possible to comepletely bring someone back to life. Raise them as a zombie with Power-necromancy, you could do. 

 

Now who is to say you can't heal the dead?  The only reason the people in the books believe so is because they convinced themselves of it, just as they convinced themselves they couldn't heal stilling.

 

Also bringing back the dead may not literally mean raising the carcass back to life, Birgitte was "dead" when Moghedien "brought" her back to life.

[Eht Slat Meit]

There are 20-odd rebels and quite a few women in the Tower who already know what Egwene is capable of. You think it is a stretch that Verin, who has had "a peripheral interest" in TAR for decades and actually gave her the dream ter'angreal and knows about her dreamer status hasn't talked to any of them. Some of the rebels (including Black sisters) also know exactly how Egwene came to Salidar through TAR.

You consider it unlikely that Verin would have talked to any of them. Even though she says she's kept track of what's going on between AS factions and stayed out of it.

 

1. As I recall, there are exactly 7 who know Egwene's full dreamwalking capabilities, not counting whomever Beonin told. Siuan and the Salidar Six, which includes one BA, Sheriam.

2. Verin gave her that ter'angreal as a keepsake, and hadn't spoken to her in nearly a year since.

3. Better yet, let's put Verin's actions into a chronology-lite.

a. Verin thinks Egwene -might- be a Dreamer, gives her the ter'angreal.

b. After nearly a year, finally gets the EF girls to Salidar. According to your logic, in the short time Verin was there (and they sure as heck are NOT telling), Sheriam or someone in Sheriam's "heart" immediately briefed Verin or it occurred to Verin to ask about Egwene's dreaming abilities, despite the fact that she'd have no reason to ask and they have no reason to tell her because it's not her job.

c. Whisks away to the WO camp, where the Aiel certainly are NOT going to tell any Aes Sedai about something they consider an abomination.

d. And not further contact is had by Verin with any of them till she hooks up with Mat, because she's off with Rand-crew cleansing sources and things.

e. So a few months later, all of that is done, she's finally getting to the crux point of her whole life and that information is something she'd pick up? Seriously?

 

I mean, if you had -anything- from the books to support your claims of her Randland-based omniscience of anything Dreamer recently discovered, I'd accept you might have the beginning of a point. Instead, you expect me to buy that it MUST have happened, simply because she's Verin and has all these contacts who gossip all the latest news on the Black Ajah grapevine the minute they see each other.

 

Cool .

 

But you don't think it's a stretch that she would have worked out Messaana and then, lie about this, and conceal it, for some reason, at the moment of her death and thus risk her life's work being compromised.

 

A slight stretch, sure, since it's speculation... but easily reasoned out as I pointed out already with material from the book. Far, far less of a stress than this completely unsupported rationale that because Verin knows Sheriam is a BA she automatically knows everything Sheriam knows.

[Sharaman]

Not "everything Sheriam knows"

- just salient details about Egwene and the interaction between the two factions.

I think Verin considers those important enough to seek them out. You think that despite multiple potential sources of info, Verin would not be capable of doing this.

Anaiya was investigating Egwene's dreaming talents before the split with Verin very much in the picture. So she knows Egwene has unusual abilities in that area.

Beonin to Elaida: The conversation in KoD establishes that the WT knows Egwene can enter TAR, speak to the rebels, etc.

WT AS know - and we know that everything Elaida does/ says is immediately transmitted to the BA.

Every Rebel sitter and keeper knows about Egwene's connect to the Rebel Hall - there are 19-20 Ter'angreal with them being used in turn.

The rebel hall knows Egwene can Travel in the flesh through TAR using a method suggested by Siuan.

At least 2 Rebel sitters plus Keeper are black. Verin has connections with the non-black sitters as well as with Siuan.

Nynaeve and co. also know of Egwene's ability in TAR - Verin has links with Nyn as well.

She has interacted with the Aiel WOs as well.

 

Verin says "I've followed the foolishness between AS factions." Presumably without discovering any salient details.

"Amazed to find how you've infiltrated--" Again she doesn't have a clue how Egwene is staying in touch.

"You did very well with what I gave you." Dream ter'angreal and info about BA-dreaming.

Etc. etc

Fine, you think, Verin has not mannaged to tap into any of these multiple sources of information to find out Egwene's exact circumstances,  and that she doesn't have a clue about dream abilities despite having studied them for years.

Cool. 

OTOH, you think that she has figured out Messi's id despite far less obvious sources of info.

And, even if she's figured out Messi's ID, she won't tell Egwene

Mind you, she does say "I'll leave it to you to figure out how to use the info. You might want to do it one way or the other. Be very careful," etc.

But actually she's lying and doesn't trust Egwene with info, and prefers to leave Egwene in danger and chance the info being unused when she knows Egwene could get to safety and use the info better. 

I can bring much more textual evidence to bear but why bother?

I think your assumptions are a stretch. You think mine are.

Let's agree to differ.

 

[Rocky_Outcrop]

There are 20-odd rebels and quite a few women in the Tower who already know what Egwene is capable of. You think it is a stretch that Verin, who has had "a peripheral interest" in TAR for decades and actually gave her the dream ter'angreal and knows about her dreamer status hasn't talked to any of them. Some of the rebels (including Black sisters) also know exactly how Egwene came to Salidar through TAR.

You consider it unlikely that Verin would have talked to any of them. Even though she says she's kept track of what's going on between AS factions and stayed out of it.

 

1. As I recall, there are exactly 7 who know Egwene's full dreamwalking capabilities, not counting whomever Beonin told. Siuan and the Salidar Six, which includes one BA, Sheriam.

2. Verin gave her that ter'angreal as a keepsake, and hadn't spoken to her in nearly a year since.

3. Better yet, let's put Verin's actions into a chronology-lite.

a. Verin thinks Egwene -might- be a Dreamer, gives her the ter'angreal.

b. After nearly a year, finally gets the EF girls to Salidar. According to your logic, in the short time Verin was there (and they sure as heck are NOT telling), Sheriam or someone in Sheriam's "heart" immediately briefed Verin or it occurred to Verin to ask about Egwene's dreaming abilities, despite the fact that she'd have no reason to ask and they have no reason to tell her because it's not her job.

c. Whisks away to the WO camp, where the Aiel certainly are NOT going to tell any Aes Sedai about something they consider an abomination.

d. And not further contact is had by Verin with any of them till she hooks up with Mat, because she's off with Rand-crew cleansing sources and things.

e. So a few months later, all of that is done, she's finally getting to the crux point of her whole life and that information is something she'd pick up? Seriously?

 

I mean, if you had -anything- from the books to support your claims of her Randland-based omniscience of anything Dreamer recently discovered, I'd accept you might have the beginning of a point. Instead, you expect me to buy that it MUST have happened, simply because she's Verin and has all these contacts who gossip all the latest news on the Black Ajah grapevine the minute they see each other.

 

Cool .

 

But you don't think it's a stretch that she would have worked out Messaana and then, lie about this, and conceal it, for some reason, at the moment of her death and thus risk her life's work being compromised.

 

A slight stretch, sure, since it's speculation... but easily reasoned out as I pointed out already with material from the book. Far, far less of a stress than this completely unsupported rationale that because Verin knows Sheriam is a BA she automatically knows everything Sheriam knows.

 

You know, its not cool the way you speak here. You are far too aggressive in your posts and its not only boring to read it makes you look like an ass. "according to your logic" "supporting your theory" you might think this is all great mature speak but it makes you look adolescent.

[JakeBarnes]

But they discovered Messi's ID through a Dan Brown cipher.  *Yawn*

[Eht Slat Meit]

You know, its not cool the way you speak here. You are far too aggressive in your posts and its not only boring to read it makes you look like an ass. "according to your logic" "supporting your theory" you might think this is all great mature speak but it makes you look adolescent.

 

You know, I don't care. It's intentional. I am not tolerant of the sarcasm-laden, condescending, snide personal shots he's been directing at me, and I will respond aggressively to it. There's nothing mature about it, as I'm not being the better man. Call that adolescent if you like, but since you're not calling him down for the same thing, I'll call it a garbage double-standard.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Not "everything Sheriam knows"

- just salient details about Egwene and the interaction between the two factions.

I think Verin considers those important enough to seek them out. You think that despite multiple potential sources of info, Verin would not be capable of doing this.

Anaiya was investigating Egwene's dreaming talents before the split with Verin very much in the picture. So she knows Egwene has unusual abilities in that area.

Beonin to Elaida: The conversation in KoD establishes that the WT knows Egwene can enter TAR, speak to the rebels, etc.

WT AS know - and we know that everything Elaida does/ says is immediately transmitted to the BA.

Every Rebel sitter and keeper knows about Egwene's connect to the Rebel Hall - there are 19-20 Ter'angreal with them being used in turn.

The rebel hall knows Egwene can Travel in the flesh through TAR using a method suggested by Siuan.

At least 2 Rebel sitters plus Keeper are black. Verin has connections with the non-black sitters as well as with Siuan.

Nynaeve and co. also know of Egwene's ability in TAR - Verin has links with Nyn as well.

She has interacted with the Aiel WOs as well.

 

Verin says "I've followed the foolishness between AS factions." Presumably without discovering any salient details.

"Amazed to find how you've infiltrated--" Again she doesn't have a clue how Egwene is staying in touch.

"You did very well with what I gave you." Dream ter'angreal and info about BA-dreaming.

Etc. etc

Fine, you think, Verin has not mannaged to tap into any of these multiple sources of information to find out Egwene's exact circumstances,  and that she doesn't have a clue about dream abilities despite having studied them for years.

Cool.   

OTOH, you think that she has figured out Messi's id despite far less obvious sources of info.

And, even if she's figured out Messi's ID, she won't tell Egwene

Mind you, she does say "I'll leave it to you to figure out how to use the info. You might want to do it one way or the other. Be very careful," etc.

But actually she's lying and doesn't trust Egwene with info, and prefers to leave Egwene in danger and chance the info being unused when she knows Egwene could get to safety and use the info better.   

I can bring much more textual evidence to bear but why bother?

I think your assumptions are a stretch. You think mine are.

Let's agree to differ.

 

1. You haven't even shown that Sheriam and Verin have any link -other- than Verin knowing she's BA. Much less "salient details".

2. Of course she does, or she'd never have found out where Egwene was. You're stretching the logic of "she went looking for Egwene to deliver the book" to "she also asked about the dreaming" even when she had no reason to. Sure she's interested, but priorities? Hello? You haven't even shown that she had a link to Sheriam to know that there's a question to ask. Capability does not equal motivation.

3. Verin wasn't in the picture, Verin was off in EF studying the next crop of initiates. Anaiya was dead by Verin's second return.

4. Source Siuan telling everyone that? The Salidar Six know, that's not the same as the entire Rebel Hall.

5. And again, absolutely no reason or motivation for her to seek out that information, information they certainly would keep secret about their new Amyrlin. Not counting Sheriam, but we've covered that. Repeatedly.

6. And we see how seriously Elaida takes that.

7. Not trusting someone to take the correct course of action is not the same thing as not trusting them. Not even close.

8. You bother with sources and citations to substantiate that what you are saying isn't simply being pulled out of the air. Unwillingness to do so suggests that you either aren't familiar enough to look it up quickly to prove your point, or that you're not as sure you're right after all. Third option is just plain lazy, but I see no need to be that insulting about it.

 

[JakeBarnes]

Why are all of your statements numbered?

[WolfDragonFox]

Yeah numbered...i don't get it...lol  J/K i'm not in this at all, hey Jake I went back and listened to some old podcasts and saw back in 06 that something you posted was featured...you only have a post count of 43 so am i right in assuming you either took a hiatus or have a new account now?  Its not important at all really just curious since I recalled your name from posting with you that last couple days or so....lol

[Eht Slat Meit]

Why are all of your statements numbered?

 

Separating pieces of text, a mental association tick so that I can check what I'm responding to, and make sure I'm not responding to a point I've already made. Also, if I discover I'm wrong about something, I can easily reference it against something that I've written and adjust my thinking appropriately. For my usage more than anything else. I could remove them if numbering actually bothered people, but running blocks of text when the text is made up of individual points is distracting to me.

[Sharaman]

Not "everything Sheriam knows"

- just salient details about Egwene and the interaction between the two factions.

I think Verin considers those important enough to seek them out. You think that despite multiple potential sources of info, Verin would not be capable of doing this.

Anaiya was investigating Egwene's dreaming talents before the split with Verin very much in the picture. So she knows Egwene has unusual abilities in that area.

Beonin to Elaida: The conversation in KoD establishes that the WT knows Egwene can enter TAR, speak to the rebels, etc.

WT AS know - and we know that everything Elaida does/ says is immediately transmitted to the BA.

Every Rebel sitter and keeper knows about Egwene's connect to the Rebel Hall - there are 19-20 Ter'angreal with them being used in turn.

The rebel hall knows Egwene can Travel in the flesh through TAR using a method suggested by Siuan.

At least 2 Rebel sitters plus Keeper are black. Verin has connections with the non-black sitters as well as with Siuan.

Nynaeve and co. also know of Egwene's ability in TAR - Verin has links with Nyn as well.

She has interacted with the Aiel WOs as well.

 

Verin says "I've followed the foolishness between AS factions." Presumably without discovering any salient details.

"Amazed to find how you've infiltrated--" Again she doesn't have a clue how Egwene is staying in touch.

"You did very well with what I gave you." Dream ter'angreal and info about BA-dreaming.

Etc. etc

Fine, you think, Verin has not mannaged to tap into any of these multiple sources of information to find out Egwene's exact circumstances,  and that she doesn't have a clue about dream abilities despite having studied them for years.

Cool.   

OTOH, you think that she has figured out Messi's id despite far less obvious sources of info.

And, even if she's figured out Messi's ID, she won't tell Egwene

Mind you, she does say "I'll leave it to you to figure out how to use the info. You might want to do it one way or the other. Be very careful," etc.

But actually she's lying and doesn't trust Egwene with info, and prefers to leave Egwene in danger and chance the info being unused when she knows Egwene could get to safety and use the info better.   

I can bring much more textual evidence to bear but why bother?

I think your assumptions are a stretch. You think mine are.

Let's agree to differ.

 

1. You haven't even shown that Sheriam and Verin have any link -other- than Verin knowing she's BA. Much less "salient details".

2. Of course she does, or she'd never have found out where Egwene was. You're stretching the logic of "she went looking for Egwene to deliver the book" to "she also asked about the dreaming" even when she had no reason to. Sure she's interested, but priorities? Hello? You haven't even shown that she had a link to Sheriam to know that there's a question to ask. Capability does not equal motivation.

3. Verin wasn't in the picture, Verin was off in EF studying the next crop of initiates. Anaiya was dead by Verin's second return.

4. Source Siuan telling everyone that? The Salidar Six know, that's not the same as the entire Rebel Hall.

5. And again, absolutely no reason or motivation for her to seek out that information, information they certainly would keep secret about their new Amyrlin. Not counting Sheriam, but we've covered that. Repeatedly.

6. And we see how seriously Elaida takes that.

7. Not trusting someone to take the correct course of action is not the same thing as not trusting them. Not even close.

8. You bother with sources and citations to substantiate that what you are saying isn't simply being pulled out of the air. Unwillingness to do so suggests that you either aren't familiar enough to look it up quickly to prove your point, or that you're not as sure you're right after all. Third option is just plain lazy, but I see no need to be that insulting about it.

 

 

All Verin needs to know to make your line of logic shady is that Egwene has an escape route.

There are multiple sources from which she could get to know that. She has links to all of them, she has an interest in Egwene, an interest in AS politics, and an interest in dreaming. She has by her own statements suggested that she has indulged those interests - but of course, she could be lying.

Sheriam isn't the only link - not even the most important - there are at least two other BA sitters in the Rebel hall. The sitters meet Egwene for directions in TAR.

Plus there's Siuan.

Go and read TGH and TDR again - that's when Anaiya was investigating Egwene's dreaming potential and when Verin handed over the ter'angreal at the behest of Siuan. Before she went to the Two Rivers and Egwene headed to Tear and the Waste. Verin helped Egwene at the behest of Siuan, who started trusting Verin in TGH when Verin puzzled out the Dark Prophesies, deduced Rand was the Dragon reborn and therfore had Siuan and Moiraine at her mercy and chose not to set Siuan up for a fall.

Siuan and Verin have had a special relationship of trust since then.

And yes, there's Elaida - who won't bother to hide information that she doesn't take seriously and who's discussed it with some others.

 

Verin could get this one detail from any one of several sources. If she has that one detail - that Egwene has a communication link to the Rebels- your entire theory falls apart because Verins's actions as suggested by you become unbelievable.

I find it difficult to believe that she wouldn't have that information.

Against that you choose to believe that she has somehow ferreted out something that nobody knows and chosen to hide it and risk her sacrifice going to waste.

Like I said, agree to differ. 

 

 

 

 

[Eht Slat Meit]

...

 

Before I get back into this, I'm going to mention that I did as you suggested; I went back and read the relevant chapters of the books. I don't like it when others expect someone else to support their arguments for them, and the results show exactly why it's a good idea to check your facts, because it ends up meaning you only get it half right.

 

That's right, I'm agreeing that you probably have it half right, not because of the flawed arguments you're using here, but because of what the books themselves say. I had this giant-sized response planned, but it becomes argument for argument's sake. Let's look at that text, from 'The Great Hunt'

^{Verin sat looking at the door for a time after it closed behind Egewene. The owl hooted softly behind her. Pulling the red box to her, she opened the lid all the way and frowned at what nearly filled the space.}

 

^{Page upon page, covered with a precise hand, the black ink barely faded after nearly five hundred years. Corianin Nedeal’s notes, everything she had learned in fifty years of studying that peculiar ter’angreal. A secretive woman, Corianin. She had kept by far the greater part of her knowledge from everyone, trusting it to only these pages. Only chance and a habit of rummaging through old papers in the library had led Verin to them. As far as she could discover, no Aes Sedai besides herself knew of the ter’angreal. Corianin had managed to erase its existence from the records.}

 

^{Once again she considered burning the manuscript, just as she had considered giving it to Egewene. But destroying knowledge, any knowledge, was anathema to her. And for the other… No. It is best by far to leave things as they are. What will happen, will happen. She let the lid drop shut. Now where did I put that page?}

 

It shows that you very likely are right - that Corianin's copious notes showed her things that she wouldn't have learned from the BA-run White Tower (which was supposedly smart enough to know everything, but not smart enough to counter it).

 

It also goes on to show that we were both wrong on an assumption we were making - that Verin has a vested interest in Dreaming. She came across those notes sheerly by accident and the one attempt she made at studying them ended badly for her.

 

It goes on to prove something that I've been saying all along - that Verin WILL hold back information from Egwene if she thinks it's not in her best interests to know it now. There's a suggestion of prophecy-awareness going on there, that she's allowing something to progress naturally rather than interfere directly. She references that again in TGS as you mentioned before, stating that Egwene had done very well for herself with what she was given.

 

It is not unreasonable to assume that Verin is holding back information to avoid the risk of running afoul of prophecy. As a Brown who has studied dark prophecies, she'd know as well of anyone the dangers of that.

 

Against that you choose to believe that she has somehow ferreted out something that nobody knows and chosen to hide it and risk her sacrifice going to waste.

 

If she thinks that interfering with prophecy may put her work, 70 years of ferreting out BA. at risk (for instance, some prophecy regarding Mesaana), it's entirely possible that she would hold back that information. Perhaps Mesaana's doomed to fall anyway?

 

As for your constant requests for agreeing to differ and leaving it at that, if you want to "leave it at that" then drop the discussion and leave it alone. Don't pull this last word nonsense. Personally, I find this conversation interesting, despite having points proven wrong, and discussion of the books helps me learn more about them or understand better what I've already read.

[WolfDragonFox]

Very well presented Eht Slat Miet...BTW is that name "The Last Time" just jumbled up...lol nevermind not relevant.  Anyhow your point on why she may have held back those pages fo Corianin is much more spot on IMO than the reason I gave when I remarked in passing about it in an earlier post.  But in that post I said that I believe the pertinent information from those notes will be included in the "other information" that is yet to be deciphered in the notes she gave Egwene.  Do you think this may be the case.  Especially since you pointed out the fact that Verin comments on how well Egwene has done thus far with "what she was given."  This was actually the piece that made me think I'm right about the dream notes being included since Egwene has shown she is worthy and the right person to handle the possible dangers and unknowns that Corianin has discovered.  Let me know.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Very well presented Eht Slat Miet...BTW is that name "The Last Time" just jumbled up...lol nevermind not relevant.

 

Exactly it. I first came across Dragonmount (again) while looking for theories about Mesaana in the Tower and came across that Spoiler thread, and decided to post my "Mesaana/Nalasia Merhan Cipher Theory". It seemed appropriate to picked an anagrammed name, and I based it off the TGS/ToM/TLB collection.

 

  Anyhow your point on why she may have held back those pages fo Corianin is much more spot on IMO than the reason I gave when I remarked in passing about it in an earlier post.  But in that post I said that I believe the pertinent information from those notes will be included in the "other information" that is yet to be deciphered in the notes she gave Egwene.  Do you think this may be the case.

 

It's possible. I think that Egwene may learn something new and useful, but I expect most of it to be redundant in what she's learned from the Aiel. Corianin had no teacher, keep in mind, which increases the possibilities of finding something new and wildly different than the approved methods. Possibly something to fight Mesaana with in counter to the theft of the dream ter'angreals? Speculation on top of speculation, of course.

 

I have a feeling that Egwene and the Tower are to fight Mesaana in the last battle and that the prophecies play a part in that. Dark Prophecy, such as targeted assassinations by means of T'A'R leading into Egwene and the White Tower against Mesaana and the Black Ajah in the Last Battle.

 

  Especially since you pointed out the fact that Verin comments on how well Egwene has done thus far with "what she was given."  This was actually the piece that made me think I'm right about the dream notes being included since Egwene has shown she is worthy and the right person to handle the possible dangers and unknowns that Corianin has discovered.  Let me know.

 

Egwene has had far better teachers in the Aiel than the notes could ever have provided, but there may be something there. I'm thinking Jordan and Sanderson would have a RAFO for that speculation.

[Sharaman]

Removed. Rude.

[WolfDragonFox]

The only thing I want to say about the matter between you two is my take on whether or not Verin knows Egwene can communicate with the rebel AS.  I also think she does or better yet should know this since she is high up in rank in the BA and that information would somehow get to her IMO.  The reason I come to this conclusion, comes from the handful of times we see a Siuan/Leane POV talking about how they share one of the rings and keep it hidden because the AS seem to have a check in check out borrowing system with the dream ter'angreal copies that Elayne made unless they are recollected for a hall meeting with Egwene in TAR.  Seeing that Sheriam was one of the main ones using them, and she was BA, it stands to reason that she leaked it to the BA network and others of the BA were using these rings when not used by sitters. (no writing on this just a possibility) And we know Sheriam tells Mesaana but even Sheriam or Alviarin who are always visited by Mesaana don't know who she is hiding as so I don't think with only 2 meetings that Verin could deduce it either so in that regard she would not be holding back her ID.  But someone IMO of the BA would have gotten a circulated note and Verin being the cipher queen would have gotten one being so high up in the BA ranks.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Removed. Rude.

[Teslan]

Question.

 

Do you truly believe given everything that you know about Verin, that she would discover the identity of Messana, and not write it down in her book?

 

"But destroying knowledge, any knowledge, was anathema to her."

 

I do not think it is consistant with her character. I do not see her devaluing her lifes work by handing it on incomplete.  I do accept that she might know something prophetical that made her choose it, but without that knowledge I don't think it fits.

 

 

 

On the oath, it does not say anywhere that she has to remain dead - I was surprised that there was not some kind of 'technically dead' nonsense going on.  On top of which she merely had to believe that it was her final hour to pass on the information.

 

*shrug*

 

Sad she is dead.

[Luckers]

Play nice people. It be the holidays!

[thewalrus777]

IMO, I believe Verin didn't know the identity of Mesaana. It's stated in TGS from her own mouth about those very specific oaths to the DO and the fact that there are extremely binding. The only one she could not betray was the DO himself. You could betray any darkfriends, BA, or even the Chosen if justifiable. I doubt that if Verin knew Mesaana's ID in the Tower, she WOULD NOT hesitate to tell Egwene. She flat out said that only in her last hour before death(as prescribed by her DO oaths), could she reveal anything. She opted to kill herself to help the WT fight the forces of the DO. And i firmly believe Verin was truthful about everything including her encounters with Mesaana. So far the names in her list have been dead on. And besides, why would someone who is clearly willing to kill themselves, lie about anything of this magnitude. They aren't going to be alive to be punished anyway.

[Thews Lerin]

Removed. Rude.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Removed. Rude.

[Thews Lerin]

Removed. Rude.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Removed. Rude.