Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[draconian]

 

Something snapped inside of himn.  He grew cold; then that coldness vanished, and he could feel nothing.  No emotion.  No anger.

 

At that moment he grew aware of a strange force.  It was like a reservoir of water, boiling and churning just beyond his view.  He reached toward it with his mind.

 

A clouded face flashed before Rand's own, one whose features he couldn't quite make out.  It was gone in a moment.

 

And Rand found himself filled with an alien power.  Not saidin, not saidar, but something else.  Something he'd never felt before.

 

Oh, Light, Lews Therin suddenly screamed.  That's impossible!  We can't use it!  Cast it away!  That is death we hold, death and betrayal.

The betrayal was Rand's.  He betrayed the Light by giving up his emotions, and his humanity.

 

not really it was use the TP or kill min be dragged to the DO and be forcefully turn to the dark

if he didnt resist the TP when he didnt nd it then u could say he betrayed the light

[angela.]

Does any one have a clue as to who's sword Rand was given that he recognizes from his own memory? It's in chapter one somewhere. He is surprised that "they" found it and presented it to him...

That has me stymied. Did I miss the point somewhere in KoD when it was presented to him by this mysterious "they"?

[mike2R]

Eh.. that's never explicitly said at all. We don't know enough to say she started doing that before the Bore. We only know she got caught afterward.

 

I can't find the book for the quote, but there's this bit I found online:

 

And a delegation from the Hall of the Servants had offered her a choice that was no choice: to be bound never to know her pleasures again, and with that binding be able to see the end of life approach; or else to be severed, and cast out as Aes Sedai. They had expected her to accept binding; that was the rational, proper thing to do, and they were rational, proper men and women. They never expected her to flee. She had been one of the first to go to Shayol Ghul.

 

This strongly hints that binders (and therefore the need of them) were well known before the bore; she was one of the first after all, so this must have been early.  And from what I recall, just before or after this she thinks about being a famous healer and whisked around the world to heal people, and that those she saved never begrudged the "little bit extra she demanded".  It implies a fairly long timescale, and coupled with the "one of the first" comment I think that is pretty conclusive that her sadism preceded the bore.

[Whitering]

Ya, it all reminds me of the Senior Partners from Angel. I know, different series, but they did not want Angel dead, they wanted him Dark. I've been thinking that was the goal of the DO for Rand for several books.

 

This policy was only explicitly reversed when Rand went to cleanse Saidin. In many was the DO won the War of Power, because of the taint. If it meant waiting another age for the DO to be free but the taint to still exist, so be it. By that time there would be fewer channelers. They had been on the decline because of no interbreeding between male and female channelers (Verin's theory).

 

The only other confusing times, well, frankly, were early in the series and RJ may have tweaked a few things.

 

Aginor seemed as though he intended to kill Rand, and I've always thought after Ishy, Aginor was the one to understand the DO's aims.

 

Belal was going to kill Rand until Moiraine killed him.

 

Ishy certainly seemed to wish Rand dead in the first three books, at least, if Rand wouldn't join him.

[richnewton82]

.

[Kryshah]

Something snapped inside of himn.  He grew cold; then that coldness vanished, and he could feel nothing.  No emotion.  No anger.

 

At that moment he grew aware of a strange force.  It was like a reservoir of water, boiling and churning just beyond his view.  He reached toward it with his mind.

 

A clouded face flashed before Rand's own, one whose features he couldn't quite make out.  It was gone in a moment.

 

And Rand found himself filled with an alien power.  Not saidin, not saidar, but something else.  Something he'd never felt before.

 

Oh, Light, Lews Therin suddenly screamed.  That's impossible!  We can't use it!  Cast it away!  That is death we hold, death and betrayal.

Did anyone else feel let down a bit by this Deux ex Machina.  It just seems wrong in a WoT book.

[angela.]

Justice? Hmm. I will have to go back to the Great Hunt for a better description. Rand's new sword I thought was described as having a Dragon on it... I will re-check that again as well.

[karehiro]

Something snapped inside of himn.  He grew cold; then that coldness vanished, and he could feel nothing.  No emotion.  No anger.

 

At that moment he grew aware of a strange force.  It was like a reservoir of water, boiling and churning just beyond his view.  He reached toward it with his mind.

 

A clouded face flashed before Rand's own, one whose features he couldn't quite make out.  It was gone in a moment.

 

And Rand found himself filled with an alien power.  Not saidin, not saidar, but something else.  Something he'd never felt before.

 

Oh, Light, Lews Therin suddenly screamed.  That's impossible!  We can't use it!  Cast it away!  That is death we hold, death and betrayal.

Did anyone else feel let down a bit by this Deux ex Machina.  It just seems wrong in a WoT book.

 

To be fair, it's not totally out of left-field or unfounded since Rand already has the connection with Moridin, Moridin can feel the same pain/sickness that Rand is going through, and it's a power that's granted (by the Dark One).

[karehiro]

double-post, no idea how that happened

[dl748]

If Rand actually can channel the TP then I believe it comes from his link, with Moridin.  But, the only view point we have is from Semirhage, saying it so.  This is ONLY because she didn't feel channeling.  And until Rand started developing the sa, I don't think we can truly be certain.

 

Also, I do believe Rand is the cause of the misfortunes though, and not the DO as most of the books suggest.  This I believe is not because of his use of the probable TP.  Since the beginning, the books have said The Dragon is "one with the land".  I think Rand caused all growth to fail, and grain to spoil, because of his own emotions and the lands reflections of those emotions.  I'm really interested to see if that will cause things to start growing again.

[coteaz]

Yeah i believe that Brandon said something like that at a signing event (its posted in one of the other spoiler threads.) But now that rand is better and has returned to the light, food will start growing and will get better, and people can actually eat.

[karehiro]

What's lame is that they'll credit the eventual food non-spoiling/general improvement to the Creator or the Pattern itself rather than Rand, much like people are already doing with the cleansing of saidin.  Yet they'll always find a way to blame Rand for whatever bad thing that does happen. 

 

I won't be surprised if Rand isn't credited with many of the things that he's accomplished when it's all said and done.

[Durinax]

isnt that how it usually goes? people blaim a diety instead of the man who made it happen. In the histories I could see people thinking it was rand though, especially since egwene, elayne, min, and aviendha, and nynaeve will work to make rand remembered better through the histories

[richnewton82]

.

[coteaz]

lol i had a weird vision about rand once, what would have happened if after everyone is just having a go at him he finally snaps and goes 'You know what, you can do it all yourselves then, cuse im outta here'. Everyone would be like ...ohh noes.

[karehiro]

isnt that how it usually goes? people blaim a diety instead of the man who made it happen. In the histories I could see people thinking it was rand though, especially since egwene, elayne, min, and aviendha, and nynaeve will work to make rand remembered better through the histories

 

True, and I suppose it's what it means in the beginning of every book:

 

The Wheel of Time turns and Ages come and go, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth returns again.

 

I doubt Egwene and Elayne will be among the ones in setting the record straight though, considering Elayne co-opted Rand's school and erased any mention or link to him as if it was her legacy rather than his, and that Egwene believes the Wheel/Pattern was what cleansed saidin (not to mention her tendency to believe the worst rumors about him).

 

I'm just getting that feeling that Rand won't really be credited with much considering that there's even visions of Logain getting glory (by stepping over a fake Rand no less) implying as if he'll be credited with what the Asha'man turn into, and of course all the Stewards and caretakers of the territories Rand has taken over implies those are the people who will be heralded for achievements.

[mike2R]

What's lame is that they'll credit the eventual food non-spoiling/general improvement to the Creator or the Pattern itself rather than Rand, much like people are already doing with the cleansing of saidin.  Yet they'll always find a way to blame Rand for whatever bad thing that does happen. 

 

I won't be surprised if Rand isn't credited with many of the things that he's accomplished when it's all said and done.

 

I dunno, judging by those of the quotations from the fourth age we sometimes get, Rand is remembered in the histories as a messianic figure, for eg:

 

And it was written that no hand but his should wield the Sword held in the Stone, but he did draw it out, like fire in his hand, and his glory did burn the world. Thus did it begin. Thus do we sing his Rebirth. Thus do we sing the beginning.

 

- from Do'in Toldara te, Songs of the Last Age, Quarto Nine: The Legend of the Dragon Composed by Boanne, Songmistress at Taralan, the Fourth Age.

 

And it came to pass in those days, as it had come before and would come again, that the Dark lay heavy on the land and weighed down the hearts of men, and the green things failed, and hope died. And men cried out to the Creator, saying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the prophecies, as he was in ages past and will be in ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.

 

From Charal Drianaan te Calamon, The Cycle of the Dragon. Author unknown, the Fourth Age

[karehiro]

What's lame is that they'll credit the eventual food non-spoiling/general improvement to the Creator or the Pattern itself rather than Rand, much like people are already doing with the cleansing of saidin.  Yet they'll always find a way to blame Rand for whatever bad thing that does happen.  

 

I won't be surprised if Rand isn't credited with many of the things that he's accomplished when it's all said and done.

 

I dunno, judging by those of the quotations from the fourth age we sometimes get, Rand is remembered in the histories as a messianic figure, for eg:

 

And it was written that no hand but his should wield the Sword held in the Stone, but he did draw it out, like fire in his hand, and his glory did burn the world. Thus did it begin. Thus do we sing his Rebirth. Thus do we sing the beginning.

 

- from Do'in Toldara te, Songs of the Last Age, Quarto Nine: The Legend of the Dragon Composed by Boanne, Songmistress at Taralan, the Fourth Age.

 

And it came to pass in those days, as it had come before and would come again, that the Dark lay heavy on the land and weighed down the hearts of men, and the green things failed, and hope died. And men cried out to the Creator, saying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the prophecies, as he was in ages past and will be in ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.

 

From Charal Drianaan te Calamon, The Cycle of the Dragon. Author unknown, the Fourth Age

 

Very nice, for some reason I forgot about the 4th Age chronicle passages.  Good find.

 

So it definitely seems as if Rand at least ended the Last Battle in a much better way than Lews Therin if they're heralding his rebirth, rather than cursing it as they did in the Third Age, which should be obvious.  And it would seem as if they are not just heralding him as a messianic figure (as you accurately point out) but I'm getting the impression he'll be seen as another Artur Hawkwing in terms of leadership seeing as how the Dragon apparently recieved alot of glory.

 

I also like the foreshadowing in the last passage particularly:  Rand wondered in this book which arm of his was meant for slaying/destruction and which was meant for protecting/sheltering others from harm (it also was talked about in the Shadow Prophecies), since one of them was cut off.  That pretty much lays it out clearly that the one arm he has remaining is to shelter people from harm while defending them with the "great sword of justice" (another foreshadowing).

 

Really the only question about that passage is how Rand will make the green things grow again.  That passage hints at him finding the Song, but other propecies only talk about his physical health/mindset being tied to the land.

 

Is there a collection of all the 4th Age commentaries somewhere?

[mike2R]

There's this, it is very out of date (CoT) though.

 

The thing I really like is that the "Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time" one, which as you say foreshadows things that have only just been revealed, was at the beginning of The Eye of the World...

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

Quote from: Jaric Mar Tedronai on October 30, 2009, 08:35:50 PM

Uneducated Rand leaps for Callandor. Ishy runs. Uneducated Rand chases. Ishy is cornered and in a last ditch attempt draws as deeply as he can. He fights and loses. Uneducated Rand with Callandor was stronger.

 

Fast forward 2 years to TGS, if this confrontation were to happen again with Rand having gained strength and skill, he would still win and it would be no contest.

 

If memory serves me, Ishy had something similar to the black cord, only in aura/cloud form, but whatever that connection is does not really sway the argument either way.

 

I don't think this example proves the TP can grow exponentially unaided. It is no different than someone immensely strong in the one power drawing as deeply as they can to nearly match someone untrained and with unfulfilled potential using a sa'angreal.

 

Quote from: karehiro

That's pretty much the point.  No one using the One Power could do what Ishamael did, unaided.  He nearly matched him with the True Power when previously he fled knowing that he didn't stand a chance.  And the fact that he entreated the Shadow to aid him, then he got much stronger shows that he was nowhere near that level before.  Ishamael got more confident once he was granted that much power, meaning that he was far stronger than before.

 

The "uneducated" part has no bearing on the argument.  It has only to do with the strength and amount of power.

 

How is that 'pretty much the point?" What I said was someone largely uneducated in channeling and with unfulfilled potential using a sa'angreal  is nearly matched by someone with great, fulfilled potential and thousands of years of dexterity and skill.

 

If Rand were to go to the black tower, hand callandor to the newest recruit who has negligible command of his abilities and has not yet developed his full strength, he could nearly match him in raw power, unaided, as a man with possibly the greatest potential strength a man can actually have. Your point does not stand; someone could do with the one power, unaided, what Ishy did with the True Power, unaided.

 

As to his crying out for aid, the Dark One is his god. People pray in situations of dire need, and I would say this qualifies.

 

Also, he did not 'get much stronger,' he drew more deeply, probably to the point of danger, but he did not get stronger. The fact that you say he got stronger does not make it true. When someone is making a last stand, readying themselves for a fight for their life, they would obviously do whatever they could to prepare, in this case drawing as much of the true power as he could. As to the confidence, it can be attributed to the fact that if Rand was anywhere near as dangerous as he feared, he would have balefired him or ripped his soul out of his body or something equally drastic once he turned to face him. Instead, Rand, unsure of what to do or how to do it, and he stabs him with Callandor. Hardly the choice someone with more knowledge would make.

 

When you ask why he runs, then turns to fight, it simply means he does not welcome the confrontation. It wasn't that he didn't stand a chance, because he obviously did, making a fight of it when he was cornered. He has no idea what abilities Rand has developed or perfected since he faced him at Falme, or even since tEotW, since Falme was not really fought with the power until the very end when Rand channels through the power-wrought sword.

 

He comes to kill him, and Rand grabs a sa'angreal. Anyone facing that would be wise to run. It is not the reality of what happened that matters, it is the potential, and with a device as powerful as that, the possibilities could be dire. Fortunately for Ishy, Rand was still learning.

 

You say the uneducated part had no bearing on the argument, when in reality it does. Even if Rand had reached his full strength potential, but could not use the power for anything except using earth for polishing his beltbuckle, he could stand there with immense amounts of saidin in him and not be able to do a thing to Ishmael. He could shine a really big buckle, but that wouldn't help him in the fight. Education and skill are factors.

 

A final point, one which has not been brought up yet, is this: nowhere does it say Ba'alzamon nearly matches Rand in quantity of power. All the book says is that the darkness around him grows, and a ball of it forms between his hands, dark enough that it seems to soak up the light from Callandor, or make it seem dim. You are making quite a large assumption to say that this is evidence that the True Power is stronger than saidin, and that someone using it can channel an amount of it equivalent to someone using the Choedan Kal.

 

Anyway I had to go to bed last night after my last post and was working today, but I wish I had been able to continue this earlier today when you made your first post. I saw several other people had also chimed in between then and now. I just don't like to leave things unresolved, or questions or points unanswered.

[Chapmann]

 

I also like the foreshadowing in the last passage particularly:  Rand wondered in this book which arm of his was meant for slaying/destruction and which was meant for protecting/sheltering others from harm (it also was talked about in the Shadow Prophecies), since one of them was cut off.  That pretty much lays it out clearly that the one arm he has remaining is to shelter people from harm while defending them with the "great sword of justice" (another foreshadowing).

 

 

Could this mean Mat (slaying/destruction as a general with gunpowder) and Perrin (protecting/sheltering as he did with the refugees from Malden)? Just something that hit me. They've been described as his two hands once if I remember correctly.

[Raveen]

Going on a tangent I wonder if Callandor was made to buffer the taint of the dark one on the TP since it clearly doesn't buffer the taint from saidin.

[dfchang]

Is there general consensus then that the closing prophecy from the Seanchan Essanik cycle has been fulfilled by Rand in Veins of Gold? 

 

"When the many become one . . ." 

 

Seems pretty straightforward in that sense.

 

I'd like to ask what people think of some seemingly contradictory prophecies?

 

He is supposed to kneel in front of or to the Crystal Throne.  How is THAT going to play out exactly?

 

And the Coramoor prophecies have Aes Sedai kneeling to wash his feet and dry it with their hair.

 

We've seen a corollary in the Amyrlin ceremony when the candidate must wash the feet of the dissenting voters but this seems a bit different as well.

 

I'm glad that Rand as blind beggar has been fulfilled.

 

It seems quite simplistic for Rand to think he's just going to take a big army to Shayol Ghul and then fight the Dark One like in a duel.

 

Per extensive discussion already in this thread, I whole-heartedly agree that the true Last Battle will be infinitely  more metaphysical and philosophical than that.

 

The Dark One doesn't just want to win.  I get the feeling that the Dark One has "won" many many many times with Rand or one of his incarnations dying.  However, EVENTUALLY as the Wheel turns, he gets sealed again.

 

We don't know the hows or the whys but in circular time, he MUST be sealed in order for the Bore to be opened again . . . however millions or billions of years it takes to turn it around.

 

Thus, from the Dark One's point of view, it must be frustrating beyond endurance to be condemned to repetition again and again and again especially since he appears to remember these turnings unlike mortals.

 

There is something very specific about the Dragon's soul itself and it doesn't just involve balefire disintegrating the Pattern.  Or else why  not just force all the dreadlords and Black Ajah to go around disintegrating cities with balefire?? 

 

No, Rand needs to be the one to renounce the Light, commit the atrocities, etc, etc and break the Pattern.  He came THIS close to doing so in tGS but backed off and returned to the Light.

 

He will be tested and tempted again in the end . . . but he will be able to resist.  The price of that resistance will be death for Rand.

 

Unlike some, I don't believe the whole "blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" word games where people justify either Galad or Elayne or the Aiel dying as his "blood." 

 

No, if the Christ like analogy continues, Rand WILL spill his blood and die to save the world.  I conjecture the Dark One will try to turn Rand in an attempt to break the Wheel and achieve everlasting victory.  Failing this, in a fit of pique, he'll kill Rand.  After all, if he can't have final victory, he'll take a feel Ages of chaos before he has to try again.

 

But that's the beauty of this thing.  I think that by trying to change the course of the Wheel and in attempting to achieve FINAL victory, the Dark One must also somehow lay himself open to FINAL defeat as well.

 

It's the ultimate gamble if you think about it.  I think the Dark One goes for it, fails, and then Rand goes for it on his side and perhaps succeeds . . . or succeeds enough that it makes no difference.

 

Dennis

[dl748]

I always wondered this too.  With Min rereading Fel's books and seemingly coming to the same conclusions I and several people had with the breaking of the seals.  I would guess that the Bore, will probably heal itself, and it was Lews that prolonged it with putting the seal in place.  And as the wheel turns, it has to come to place where there are no channelers as well, or people have forgotten how to channel.  Channeling created the bore, channeling can keep the bore open, and not channeling would probably let the bore heal itself for the next id10t to come and poke at it again.

[adverge]

 

I think the two people who will be wielding Callandor with Rand at the final battle will either be Cadsuane and Moraine or Elayne and Avhienda.  It would really have to be either pair.  It couldn't be one from each because of their relationships with Rand.  First group are advisors, second are lovers.  You don't mix that kind of thing up.  I'm going to go with the first group because the second would leave out Min (I know she can't channel but she's of the same relative importance to Rand).