Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[richnewton82]

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[JenniferL]

A Verin thread would also be nice  ;D

 

Use the Black Ajah thread for Verin.

[demigod456]

There is a bit in tGS where Rand is talking with LTT, and they discuss about something having to "bridge the gap" and touch the Dark One when the bore was being re-sealed, LTT states that that thing was Saidin and thats why it became corrupted after the DO's backlash.

 

What if rand was to replace Saidin With the True power when(if) he re-seals the bore at TG, could he possibly avoid a backlash and another tainting on saidin, and instead the DO would "taint his own power"  by having TP on TP contact?

 

Any thoughts?

[DukeBob]

Could it be that Rand burned himself out when he destroyed the CK? All we have in the book is "the power winked out, the tempest ended." He had just destroyed the largest sa'angreal while accessing it. Sounds like a great way to either kill yourself or at least burn yourself out.

 

The other thing that makes me think this is the disappearance of LTT. "For they were not two men, and never had been." This implies that LTT was part of the taint-induced madness. He wasn't a separate individual merging with Rand. Rand gets burned out, the madness of LTT is removed. LTT disappears forever.

 

Granted this isn't a big deal as Rand can easily be found via Min; and Nynaeve can restore back his ability to channel, however now he can exclusively channel cleanse Saidin. No more fears of madness.

This would also serve as a great tool for Rand. Gentle all existing Ashamen to clear any former madness accrued; then heal.

[richnewton82]

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[sporthogg]

I think BS pretty much gave away how Rand is going to seal the dark one away.

Rand can use the TP.  In one of Rand's conversations with Lews Therin, LT says he failed because he used saidin to seal the dark one away.  Saidin touched the dark one thats why it was tainted.  Something has to touch the dark one.  

Since the TP is already from the dark one, and Rand now has access to it, he will use the TP to seal away the dark one.  No taint.

Now after that i'm not sure how BS will handle it.

 

Perhaps once he puts taht first layer of TP over him, maybe he'll add a top coat of Saidin/saidar as icing, who knows.?

[JenniferL]

Why would the Dark One give him access to the True Power if he plans to use it to reseal the Bore? Remember, it can only be drawn with his permission.

[Lambada]

Re: Strength of OP vs TP / Why do TP users flee circles?

 

Here's my stance

 

I believe the True Power to be stronger than the One Power i.e. the maximum saidin/saidar limit is less than the maximum TP limit. But the reason that TP users have fleed for example Callandor / potential circles is because of the properties of the TP.

 

That is you can't sense / detect the TP in other people / weaves. Hence you can't have a TP *greal.

When you go to channel through a *greal you can sense that it can channel the OP and you reach into the OP through the object. With the TP there will be no sense and hence nothing to reach towards.

 

Because of this a TP user will be weaker than a OP user with a sufficiently strong (sa')angreal. I think Callandor would meet this criteria.

 

And as for fleeing circles it is much the same. You draw through a circle much as you would a (sa')angreal - you reach through the other person who is on the edge and complete the link yourself. This would be impossible with the TP as you could not sense the TP in the other person. Not only that but in the special case of circles the circles are stronger than TP users, but also a shield made of the OP will also shield you from the TP - I believe RJ confirmed this somewhere - i'll try and find a quote. Hence being so scared of circles. (What the difference is between a circle and a true circle is irrelevant in this case).

[Bob T Dwarf]

While I in no way think the Sealing will happen this way -

 

Consider that Rand's OP sickness comes from his link to Moridin.  Moridin literally cannot stand to touch OP anymore.  He has to use TP.

 

I don't think Rand got permission in any form from the DO for his use of TP, he just drew it through his link with Moridin.  So, unless the DO is going to cutoff Moridin, Rand can use TP again at any time and for any reason he chooses.  Through the link, Moridin has become a permanently accessible, living TP sa'angreal for Rand.

[richnewton82]

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[Bob T Dwarf]

Re: Strength of OP vs TP / Why do TP users flee circles?

 

Here's my stance

 

I believe the True Power to be stronger than the One Power i.e. the maximum saidin/saidar limit is less than the maximum TP limit. But the reason that TP users have fleed for example Callandor / potential circles is because of the properties of the TP.

 

That is you can't sense / detect the TP in other people / weaves. Hence you can't have a TP *greal.

When you go to channel through a *greal you can sense that it can channel the OP and you reach into the OP through the object. With the TP there will be no sense and hence nothing to reach towards.

 

Because of this a TP user will be weaker than a OP user with a sufficiently strong (sa')angreal. I think Callandor would meet this criteria.

 

And as for fleeing circles it is much the same. You draw through a circle much as you would a (sa')angreal - you reach through the other person who is on the edge and complete the link yourself. This would be impossible with the TP as you could not sense the TP in the other person. Not only that but in the special case of circles the circles are stronger than TP users, but also a shield made of the OP will also shield you from the TP - I believe RJ confirmed this somewhere - i'll try and find a quote. Hence being so scared of circles. (What the difference is between a circle and a true circle is irrelevant in this case).

 

I don't believe that this is correct.

 

Mieren's primary motivation in discovering TP in the first place was ego.  She was the strongest, foremost female channeler in the world.  Stronger and more adept than almost all men.  Yet in any 2 person link, ( and possibly some other larger ones ) she was required to take a backseat, to surrender control of the link to the man.

 

That cheesed her off.  With TP, and the fact that both sexes drew exactly the same Power, she would never again have to take a backseat in any circle.

 

 

As we see with Rand, he can sense TP through Moridin.  I can think of no reason why any other TP circle would work identically.  The Forsaken simply don't form circles because none of them trust any of the others enough to let them lead.  They're all control freaks who won't ever give up the reins.  

[Bob T Dwarf]

As i said before, the True Power IS the Dark One. What is being proposed doesn't make sense. You can't use something to seal itself off.

 

Did you know that the best way to remove heel marks from linoleum is to scrub them off using the heel of the shoe or boot that caused them?

 

Not saying that TP is what will seal away the DO, just that using something to remove its damage is a real possibility.

[Lambada]

I don't believe that this is correct.

 

Mieren's primary motivation in discovering TP in the first place was ego.  She was the strongest, foremost female channeler in the world.  Stronger and more adept than almost all men.  Yet in any 2 person link, ( and possibly some other larger ones ) she was required to take a backseat, to surrender control of the link to the man.

 

That cheesed her off.  With TP, and the fact that both sexes drew exactly the same Power, she would never again have to take a backseat in any circle.

 

 

As we see with Rand, he can sense TP through Moridin.  I can think of no reason why any other TP circle would work identically.  The Forsaken simply don't form circles because none of them trust any of the others enough to let them lead.  They're all control freaks who won't ever give up the reins.  

They couldn't have known that linking with the TP was impossible until they had accessed the source by creating the bore. Rand and Moridin are a special case as they seem to be having some kind of mind-meld (can't think of another way to word it i'm afraid.). The Rand / Moridin case assumes that Rand is only touching the TP through Moridin which there is some evidence for but is not conclusive. So either Rand is touching it in his own right, or they are a special case - neither of which will destroy the theory.

Everything we have heard about the TP emphasises how it cannot be detected by others. Everything we have heard about angreal and circles shows that you need to be able to sense the power of choice through the other person. Trust would only be an issue if it was possible to form a TP circle - which I don't think it is.

[richnewton82]

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[Datakim]

I don't actually believe that Rand using TP was as strong as with the CK. However just for the sake of argument here is an idea.

 

What if there is something special about Rand that Ishamael/Moridin does not have? What if Rand and ONLY Rand, due to his special circumstances as the Dragon soul can somehow draw in vast quantities of TP in a way that others cannot.

 

What if this is the reason that rather than killing him the DO&co want to convert him. Because if Rand joined the shadow he could channel TP in humongous quantities, enough to destroy the pattern with ease. Something Moridin cannot do since he is not the Dragon.

[firstfishman]

3 will become one...

 

I believe that Avienda will sense that the Dark One's prison is, in fact, a type of ter'angreal.

 

Rand will be wielding Callandor, form a circle with Avienda and Elayne. Elayne will lead. She will create a new prison for the Dark One with her abilities creating ter'angreal.

 

The Lion Throne is "the key to victory" is she not?

 

In the process they will all, knowingly, burn themselves out. Callandor lacking the buffer that all sa'angreal have that allows the person using it to wield it safely..

 

Min will be killed in book 13, causing them all great pains, but allowing Elayne and Avienda to marry Rand as first sisters...

 

3 will become one....

[mike2R]

As i said before, the True Power IS the Dark One. What is being proposed doesn't make sense. You can't use something to seal itself off.

 

Did you know that the best way to remove heel marks from linoleum is to scrub them off using the heel of the shoe or boot that caused them?

 

Not saying that TP is what will seal away the DO, just that using something to remove its damage is a real possibility.

 

We're talking about trapping somebody. With themself.

 

That is actually a very common theme; evil carries within it the seeds of its own destruction and all that.  I don't actually think this is the way it is going to go, but I don't see anything inherently impossible about it, and there is a certain thematic logic to it.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

They couldn't have known that linking with the TP was impossible until they had accessed the source by creating the bore. Rand and Moridin are a special case as they seem to be having some kind of mind-meld (can't think of another way to word it i'm afraid.). The Rand / Moridin case assumes that Rand is only touching the TP through Moridin which there is some evidence for but is not conclusive. So either Rand is touching it in his own right, or they are a special case - neither of which will destroy the theory.

Everything we have heard about the TP emphasises how it cannot be detected by others. Everything we have heard about angreal and circles shows that you need to be able to sense the power of choice through the other person. Trust would only be an issue if it was possible to form a TP circle - which I don't think it is.

 

Where are you getting the idea that they couldn't sense the TP?

 

Anyone to whom the DO has given permission to access TP can sense it.  In themselves and in any others so gifted if linked.

 

What they cannot sense is the weave being spun with TP.  A totally different thing.

 

Think of TP as a kind of machine tool.  Think of the weave as the object being made with that tool.

[mike2R]

 

They couldn't have known that linking with the TP was impossible until they had accessed the source by creating the bore. Rand and Moridin are a special case as they seem to be having some kind of mind-meld (can't think of another way to word it i'm afraid.). The Rand / Moridin case assumes that Rand is only touching the TP through Moridin which there is some evidence for but is not conclusive. So either Rand is touching it in his own right, or they are a special case - neither of which will destroy the theory.

Everything we have heard about the TP emphasises how it cannot be detected by others. Everything we have heard about angreal and circles shows that you need to be able to sense the power of choice through the other person. Trust would only be an issue if it was possible to form a TP circle - which I don't think it is.

 

Where are you getting the idea that they couldn't sense the TP?

 

Anyone to whom the DO has given permission to access TP can sense it.  In themselves and in any others so gifted.

 

What they cannot sense is the weave being spun with TP.  A totally different thing.

 

Think of TP as a kind of machine tool.  Think of the weave as the object being made with that tool.

 

Are you sure about that?  I'd always assumed that no one could sense another's use of the TP in any way, although I've never really thought about it before.  What about when "The Watcher" is following Samael and Grendel a few books back.  He was close and holding the TP, why couldn't they sense it?

[Calloravion]

As i said before, the True Power IS the Dark One. What is being proposed doesn't make sense. You can't use something to seal itself off.

 

Did you know that the best way to remove heel marks from linoleum is to scrub them off using the heel of the shoe or boot that caused them?

 

Not saying that TP is what will seal away the DO, just that using something to remove its damage is a real possibility.

 

We're talking about trapping somebody. With themself.

 

The TP is considered the DO's power to give to this Chosen.  That the TP is the DO himself is only speculation.  Indeed, wouldn't that imply that a TP channeler is controlling the DO?

 

The Bore was drilled because they thought they found a new source of power.  They did, but it also happened to the DO's prison, and they allowed him to touch the world.

 

Throughout the books the people have believed that the TP is the DO's power.  But what if the DO is not the master of the TP?  What if the TP is the master of him?  What if his prison is constructed with the TP, and because the Bore disrupted that prison, he is able to make use of it?  What if the TP is actually the pure power of the Creator, but acquires an aspect of evil after flowing through the DO, and thence to mortals?

[richnewton82]

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[Bob T Dwarf]

Yet in any 2 person link, ( and possibly some other larger ones ) she was required to take a backseat, to surrender control of the link to the man.

 

Wrong. Either person can direct the flows. We see Rand do it at the cleansing. We see female Aes Sedai do it with their Ashaman warders.

 

We've never seen a circle with just the AS and her Asha'man Warder.  If we did, the Warder would have to lead.

 

The circles formed at the Cleansing were all multi-person circles.  Once you get past two, the female can lead.

[mike2R]

Wrong. Either person can direct the flows. We see Rand do it at the cleansing. We see female Aes Sedai do it with their Ashaman warders.

 

No, it is explicitly stated that in a 2 person man-woman link the man has to be in control; if an Aes Sedai wants to be in control when linking with her Ashaman warder the she would need to bring another woman into the link.

[richnewton82]

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[richnewton82]

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