Demand Demandred!

[Vo0]

There ARE a lot of things working for him being Demandred but i think that's the point. It's SO obvious that everyone believes it's him and overlooks others. But how did he know "Let the Lord of Chaos rule."? it's only known to the forsaken and/or Friends of the Dark (he said it at the end of KoD) There ARE a lot of pointers to it being Demandred, he can hold the same if not more of the power as Rand, he knows weaves he hasn't been teaching the rest of the Asha'man only a select group... No i believe either it IS Demandred and we've been double bluffed because the Dark haven't got any male channelers but where could they get them hmmm :P the select group! I think Taim and his select group will be the new Dreadlords at T'G and Taim either the "top dreadlord" or he is Demandred and we've just been cleverly fooled. On the other hand there is a lot of pointers to Murandy too so it's a puzzle...

[Cybertrolloc]

Demandred doesn't recognize Flynn, that's good enough for me. Demandred can't be Taim, unless it can be shown that he has a very bad memory--Taim told Rand that Flynn was farthest along at one point.

Unfortunately Taim was active in the world before Demandred secured his release. This was dismissed in the Taimendred theory because Bashere expresses his doubt about Taim being who he said he was, therefore allowing demandred to have assumed Taim's identity AFTER he was captured by Aes Sedai, and making no problem with Taim, but RJ put paid to that.

Don't forget Taim's "madness" or weirdness or whatever (Rand and Perrin note this). That doesn't fit Demandred (he hates LTT but doesn't seem insane in that sense), but does fit Moridin or the description of the 13 channeler + 13 Myrdraal brainwash plus possible Forsaken training. Taim is at least tied to Moridin in some way...and not all the Forsaken are as jealous of AoL knowledge as Graendal (i.e. Mesaana).

 

Moridin doesn't do much on screen except lounge around or keep tabs on various characters. Since Bathamael and Aginor only reappeared at the start of LoC and Ishy died a year later than them...and Moridin is first onstage another 8 months after that...I call it doubtful (Taim seems pretty consistant). We don't know anything about Transmigration though, except a few tidbits like the Dark One needs a body to stuff your soul into and so on.

 

What tied Taim to Demandred was physical appearence, some mannerisms (never smiles), strength and knowledge of power and that they appear at near the same time in KoD. It's later that we see a few things that are difficult to resolve if Taim = Demandred like the Flynn thing.

[Dionysus]

There ARE a lot of things working for him being Demandred but i think that's the point. It's SO obvious that everyone believes it's him and overlooks others.

 

Ya' date=' like 500 years ago before Robert Jordan flat out said it wasn't him, and put stuff in the books to PROVE it wasn't him. No one believes Taim=Demandred anymore except for people who just can't move on.

 

But how did he know "Let the Lord of Chaos rule."? it's only known to the forsaken and/or Friends of the Dark (he said it at the end of KoD) There ARE a lot of pointers to it being Demandred, he can hold the same if not more of the power as Rand, he knows weaves he hasn't been teaching the rest of the Asha'man only a select group...

 

Moridin most likely told him to "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" or Demandred pre-Moridin before he reasserted his influence. If he could hold the same or more of the power as Rand then it would be Moridin, not Demandred, because Demandred (and Taim) can't hold as much as Rand, they hold a little bit less. Moridin/Rand/LTT are the most powerful ever. I dont see why the rest of your pointers point to Demandred, they just show that he is a very important darkfriend.

 

No i believe either it IS Demandred and we've been double bluffed because the Dark haven't got any male channelers but where could they get them hmmm :P the select group! I think Taim and his select group will be the new Dreadlords at T'G and Taim either the "top dreadlord" or he is Demandred and we've just been cleverly fooled. On the other hand there is a lot of pointers to Murandy too so it's a puzzle...

 

If Taim is Demandred, we haven't been fooled at all, we have been duped. Most of us probably thought Taim was Demandred at some point or another, then Robert Jordan made sure that without any shadow of a doubt that Taim CAN NOT be Demandred.

 

Please let rest the Taimandred theories, they are over, dead, gone, proven false, cant happen.

[Luckers]

Moridin couldn't be Taim either, if thats what Cybertrolloc was implying... Taim predates Moridin--even his first appearence in which Bashere doubts who he is predates Moridins rebirth.

 

Moridin most likely told him to "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" or Demandred pre-Moridin before he reasserted his influence.

 

Or perhaps he heard it direct from the Dark One. Given the evidence i wouldn't exclude this possibility.

[Cybertrolloc]

Moridin couldn't be Taim either, if thats what Cybertrolloc was implying... Taim predates Moridin--even his first appearence in which Bashere doubts who he is predates Moridins rebirth.

None of my WoT books have that scene in them :( Are they defective? ;)

[Guest Majsju]

None of my WoT books have that scene in them Are they defective?

 

It's in the beginning of LOC.

[Jayson]

Here is a quote from some comments I made in reference to a recent podcast question.

 

"Moridin is not Mazrim Taim. I believe because of all the strings Moridin is pulling, why would he himself, play the part of Mazrim Taim. Not to mention being Taim seems to be quite a full time job. He’s visible by all of his follows and is teaching all of them. And for how long was he actually running the whole black tower? I do not believe that Moridin is going to change his MO from pulling the strings to acting the part. And to what end? Moridin would have very little to gain by being Taim himself. "

 

Which leaves the questions, where is Demandred? Remember Min had a viewing of an invisible man holding a knive to Rand's throat. I'll repeat that... "Min had a viewing of an invisible man holding a knive to Rand's throat".

 

I'll line up a few thought for you, take your own conclusions... :).

 

1 - Taim has a serious infiriority complex with Rand. However, he does obey Rand's commands... as if he's being COMMANDED to obey Rand.

 

2 - Mazrim Taim refers to gateways as Traveling, before anyone tells him what they are. Although this is easily debunked by the fact that they are legend, I'm sceptical that it is something he would know by chance.

 

3 - Taim learns rather quickly when being shown new thigns with the Power. Almost as if he knew them already.

 

4 - He does not suffer from Madness...

 

5 - Lews Therin always talks of killing Demandred when Taim is around.

 

6 - There's a forsaken in the White Tower... and with Robert Jordan's tendancy to make all things equal... why isn't there a forsaken in the Black Tower?

 

All these things point to Taim BEING Demandred... but here's the kicker...

 

7 - Min's viewing of invisible man!

 

Demandred is teaching and controlling Taim from within the Black Tower. I haven't yet heard anything to debunk this theory... please do if you know of something!

[Cybertrolloc]

None of my WoT books have that scene in them Are they defective?

 

It's in the beginning of LOC.

Sorry, meant when Moridin was resurrected by the DO. Remember there was quite some time between when Ag and Beth were ressed and when they were turned loose.

[Vo0]

There was a Forsaken in the BT, Aran'gar (Dashiva) but i suppose it's not impossible that there could be two :D and as for him not being mad... we don't really know that, sometimes the most insane people are those who appear to be the most sane or not insane at all. But, i think he's a serious threat though no doubt about it..

[Luckers]

Vo0 has a valid point, Taim displays an instablity which could be madness... the problem is though, that that also causes a rotting of the skin longterm, which Taim shows no sign of.

 

Sorry, meant when Moridin was resurrected by the DO. Remember there was quite some time between when Ag and Beth were ressed and when they were turned loose.

 

You don't actually see it, but Moridin's first appearences coincide with about the same length of time Aran'gar and Osen'gar were absent after their deaths, so we can suggest that reasonably, that was about when he was resurrected.

[Barnabas]

i think it would be best if taim was his own person, yes in leagure or under the authority of someone else, but if it turns out that he is moridin (which i highly doubt)then i think it would be pretty crap. he deserves to be his own character. and btw voo, it was osangar not arangar who was posing as dashiva

[dirkimus]

Demandred has to be someone that is close to Rand because in WH in the chapter in which the forsaken are meeting, someone says something along the lines of it being Demandred and Osangar's job to watch Rand. But I'm reluctant to name Taim because in WH both Taim and Demandred give the same command to "kill him!" Why would he give the command to one person two different times as two different people?

[Kadere]

Well we know that Demandred is not Taim, RJ has confirmed this numerous times, and later when Rand is cleansing the taint from Saidin Demandred doesn't recognize the Ash'amen that Rand has with him.

 

And, another interesting but possibly false bit, is that Lanfear mentions in the FoH Prolouge during her meeting with the other's that she thinks Demandred is close to Rand already at that time. I don't remember the exact quote, and I don't have the books here with me, but it's in there. So if Demandred was already somewhat close to Rand back in FoH way before the Asha'men, then he certainly won't be Taim.

 

And then of course there's the bit of information from RJ himself that up through CoT we still have not met who Demandred is posing as. So yeah, it really doesn't look like it's going to turn out to be Taim.

[Guest Majsju]

And, another interesting but possibly false bit, is that Lanfear mentions in the FoH Prolouge during her meeting with the other's that she thinks Demandred is close to Rand already at that time. I don't remember the exact quote, and I don't have the books here with me, but it's in there. So if Demandred was already somewhat close to Rand back in FoH way before the Asha'men, then he certainly won't be Taim.

 

What she actually says is that someone is trying to control Rand, possibly kill him, and she mentions Moghedien and Demandred as the prime suspects.

 

But then, just because she says something doesn't mean that it is anywhere near the truth. She does after all say this during the meeting where she's trying to get Rahvin, Sammael and Graendal to join her in her plotting, so she might very well just be manipulating them.

[Kadere]

Yeah, I said it was possibly false. But if Demandred is showing his "control" of Rand back then, when Taim hadn't just about nothing to do with Rand, it limits the feild of suspects from those who have connections with the Asha'men, potentially.

[Lews Therin Telamon]

Hi guys. I think we are going to see Logain kill Demandred, much as I would hate to see it because I think Demandred is great. e is the only male Forsaken who hasnt used his reincarnation that they all seem to be granted to.

Remember Mins viewing about Logain stepping over somebody with Rands face, who isnt really Rand? Check out my theory.

Moridin finally decides to take advantage of the fact that Rand rarely visits the Black Tower and sends Demandred to impersonate Rand. However, Demandred doesnt know that Rands missing a hand and leaves that part out. Logain sees Rand, says "Good morning Boss. Hows the hand?" Demandred/Rand gets confused, Logain figures out that it aint Rand and kills him. What dya think to my first theory guys?

[Kadere]

A lot of people have posted pretty much that same theory, only with Taim as the one pretending to be Rand, not Demandred.

[Guest Majsju]

It would make more sense if Demandred did the impersonation act. Why would Taim do it? The Asha'man are already taking their orders from him. As Logain said, a lot of them are more loyal to Taim than to Rand, so there'd be no reason for Taim to impersonate Rand, he'd just have to tell them that he's giving out orders that he got from Rand.

 

And then, it would look a bit odd if "Rand" came to the Black Tower, and Taim was nowhere to be found.

[Lews Therin Telamon]

I remember at the Cleansing Demandred seemed a bit of a coward-when Damer Flinn linked with whoever attacked Demandred he filled his pants because they were as strong linked as he was himself. Iv got a funny feeling that Demandred will continue to lie in the shadows until very near the Last Battle and that if any of the Chosen manages to pull Moridin (which they all seem to want) down it will be Demandred.

 

As for impersonating Rand, Demandred was supposed to be keeping an eye on Rand as much as Osan'gar was (Aran'gar pointed this out just before the Cleansing) so he would have more of a motive than Taim does

[Luckers]

Really? That retreat struck me as more calculating then cowardly. He retreated because it made the most sense, and was already in the process of planning a counter-attack.

[Lews Therin Telamon]

Yea i know what you mean i suppose I was just hoping Demandred would kill somebody

[Luckers]

Mmm true... though he strikes me as more of a thinker then a warrior. As indeed, his own thoughts reflect.

[Lews Therin Telamon]

You dont need to be a warrior to kill someone look at Padan Fain

[Luckers]

But there is a difference between killing and the sort of fight Demandred was involved in at the Cleansing. That Demandred can kill, and likely has countless times, i dont doubt. Its his ability as a fighter that i doubt--and even then im not saying he cant do it, he's just not especially good at it and therefore seeks to act through other methods mostly.

[Phil_Megrim]

*hides behind keflon shield* I say its Mazrim Taim no matter what anyone says even RJ. Firstly Demandred before he went to the shadow was jealous of LTT's power even though he got rewards piled up on him. Mazrim Taim mirrors this jealousy since:

he got the first sword and dragon pin he has never worn them and in fact made a coat that mimics the dragons on his wrists like Rand he likes to give himself rewards not be handed them hence why he created is own followers. Also when Rand picked out Dashiva/Osan`gar for his personal enterauge Taim was both surprised and frustrated it's like you try to manuvere someone to your trap and he just steps into it of his own free will.

Also he is not "posing" as Mazrim taim, he is Mazrim Taim.

And where better to carve out a powerful kingdom than the Black Tower making his own Dreadlords. Also it would seem that even though Ishy got Naeblis status Demandred would have been choosen cause from what I've seen he was the only one that hasn't f***ed up royally his plan was the only one that actually worked for him.