Matt's memories before the finns

[Raistlin]

During my read through of TDR I noticed Matt has atleast memories from another past life. At the beginning of chapter 19 Awakening it has one from the fall of Manethern. It has been along time since I have reread the early books in the series. Is there any other times like this. I am curious if he had more memories like that one before the finns.

[MatsLuck]

I have a pretty good memory, pretty good recall anyway, and I can't think of any other time pre-finn where this happens. I believe it is one of those "old blood" things mentioned in the early books. This is something I don't believe RJ ever explained (at least not in the books, in interviews maybe) and I think its meant to be that way. And its not only Mat, although he is the one everyone always thinks of. He started spouting the old tongue in the very first book, pretty early on. But there is a mention, albeit small, where Egwene tells him she almost thought she knew what he was saying, or thought she should know. Again, I think it's one of those things with no explanation...just the old blood singing I guess. That's probably as good as we're gonna get.

[dholm]

It is the Old Blood, yeah. Possibly amplified by the (severed) connection to the Shadar Logoth dagger.

[Jillain Sanche]

MatsLuck's memory is excellent. I just reread the passage last night (and had been wondering about this very issue earlier yesterday).

 

Perrin and Rand cry out "Manetheren" right after Lan makes his warcry, just as they are fighting off the Trollocs BEFORE they get to Shadar Logoth. And Mat cries out in the Old Tongue.

Afterward, as they briefly stop before going on to Shadar Logoth, Egwene asks Rand what they were saying; she says she thinks she understood what Mat said at the time he said it.

Moiraine breaks off her discussion with Lan to speak up and say the Old Blood is strong (and smiling at Mat and Egwene). Rand and Perrin share a look, both thinking maybe Mat is descended from the old king, et cetera and so forth.

 

So, not really that he had any memories, but somehow the Old Tongue just pops up in his speech during the moment they are attacked.

 

It IS curious, or even "fascinating!" as Mr. Spock would say.

 

[Krazikarl]

Ive always kind of thought that RJ originally was going to have Mat's memories coming just from the "Old Blood" mechanism with no finns involved since he seemed to be setting that up with all the Two Rivers folk having that kind of stuff popping up.  But then he changed his mechanism somewhere after the first book and you dont see the Old Blood stuff popping up much at all anymore.  Just my own personal theory - could be completely off base.

[Charlz Fel]

Whatever Mat has pre-Eelfinn, it's stronger than the Old Blood in any other known case.  Birgitte tells Mat in LoC that the Old Blood can make someone occasionally say a phrase in the Old Tongue without understanding what it means, but his ability to speak the Old Tongue fluently is something else.  However, according to both Rand and Moiraine, the Aelfinn spoke the Old Tongue; they brought in a translator for Rand.  Unless the Aelfinn were bringing off a deliberate deception, which seems unlikely, Mat was able to speak the Old Tongue fluently, at least in certain circumstances, before receiving memories from the Eelfinn.

 

As best I recall, all the instances of Mat speaking the Old Tongue and knowing what he's saying (as opposed to shouting a battlecry and presumably having no idea what it means) occur after Mat is healed from the dagger.  [The first instance apparently occurs during the healing, when Mat is at first giving orders to soldiers and then commands the Aes Sedai to release him.]  Additionally, the one pre-Eelfinn ancient memory that we have been able to come up with occurs as Mat is awakening after the healing.

 

Here's a possible theory.  We know that, when Rand was trying to break away from the male Choedan Kal in TGH, he reached into his roots and found harsh soil that is baked by day and frozen by night [i.e., the Aiel Waste] and mumbled the Aiel catechism(?) "Till shade is gone, till water is gone,...."  Perhaps, in the end of the struggle against the dagger and then in the intense stress of the separation, Mat survived by reaching into his own roots, and thereby brought his connection to the Old Blood closer to the surface than it has been in any case Birgitte knows about.

[Raistlin]

The memorie of him leading the battle at the begging of chapter 19 of TDR is complete not a fragment. I have not seen any other like it except after he goes to the finns. How would he be able to see all of what happend???? I am just wondering if like previously stated that RJ may changed how Mat got his memories from his orignal plan. I have never seen it discussed any where though.

[Majsju]

The best explanation for Mats memory in TDR is given by Siuan in the chapter before. During the Healing, the past and the present became one, and Mats memory afterwards is a residue of that. Which would also explain his understanding of the Old Tongue, somehow it got stuck in his subconsciousness. The battle he does remember falls in roughly the same timeframe as the fall of Aridhol, so it makes sense that the dagger has something to do with it.

[MatsLuck]

Yes the dagger probably has something to do with it as well. I've always believed it had something to do with his amplified luck as well, as that does not appear till after he is healed. He mentions several times that he was always lucky, but it doesn't go off the charts until after the healing. Perhaps by carrying the dagger for so long some of its...residue maybe...has seeped into him. It dates from the time of his complete "old memory" in Tar Valon as Majsju says. Birgette's statement to Mat doesn't apply I think, because that was post-finn and clearly linked to them. He was speaking in correct accents and idioms from various countries ie in the voices of the men now in his head.