Asmodean forever

[SilkWWU]

Already posted in two other threads....

 

Debunking The “Two Servants Theoryâ€

 

Travis G.

 

The original theory that I will be discussing, dissecting, and finally debunking (for the most part) can be found at the WOT Encyclopedia (http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/) under “Theories and Unanswered Questions.†While interesting and well thought out, there are blatant errors that all but those of us, who actually went back, double checked, and rehashed the actual text, would have found. Please, before you read this counter-argument, go back and analyze the original theory at the website posted above. It will make much more sense to you since I will be writing in direct relation to that document.

It is quite apparent that the author of this theory is correct in the location of Asmodean’s death. Unfortunately, that tells us less then we can hope. It is not an uncommon area for people to be wandering in. Rand states, “I walked this way with Elayne and Gawyn the day I met Morgase.†So now that we have the general location set (as presented in the TST), we can begin to dissect the encounter with the servants and really put to rest the myth that the killer had to be one or both.

The author of the “Two Servants Theory†claims that it is obvious that “they were more then servants.†I find this claim hard to prove. We need to realize whom we are talking about. The Forsaken. The passage where Rand encounters the pair of unlucky servants goes like this:

A man and a woman crouched against the wall, servants liveried in red and white, short of their middle years and holding each other as though for protection. Seeing Rand—there was more to the name; not just Rand—the man started to rise from where he had huddled away from the Myddraal-led band, but the woman hauled him back by his sleeve.

“Go in peace,†Rand said, putting out a hand. Al’Thor. Yes, Rand al’Thor. “I’ll not hurt you, but you could be hurt if you stay.â€

The woman’s brown eyes rolled up in her head. She would have collapsed in a heap if the man had not caught her, and his narrow mouth was working rapidly, as if he was praying but could not get the words out.

Rand looked where the man was looking. His hand had stretched out of his coat sleeve far enough to bare the Dragon’s golden maned head that was part of his skin. “I will not hurt you,†he said, and walked on, leaving them there. He had Rahvin to corner yet. Rahvin to kill. And then?â€

 

This is the paragraph that has been examined by this author. I find his conclusions concerning the servants mentioned in this paragraph quite absurd, while the obviousness at their lack of involvement is quite glaring. Considering that the killer of Asmodean must have been someone who could channel, considering the quickness and finality of his death. Which means that the servants (one or both) had to be the Forsaken if they were anything other then normal servants. I will dissect chronologically in this paragraph. When can you ever imagine any of the Forsaken “huddling together?†The entire mannerisms displayed by these servants’ defeats any idea that they could have been Forsaken. From the huddling, to the fainting, to the staring in awe while praying at Rand’s tattooed arms, none of which could coincide with any of the ways a forsaken would act. Especially Sammael or Graendal.

There is one other aspect that sheds opposing light onto whether both of the servants were Forsaken. Surely Rand would have noted a scar on the face of the man such as the one Sammael has during the description, since in multiple instances throughout the book, he uses Lews Therin’s memories to recognize faces, places, etc. So, if they were in fact Sammael or Graendal in disguise, they would be under Illusion. But, remember, when under Illusion, if you are touched, it is easily recognizable that it is not your real appearance. So when the female servant faints, and the male servant catches her, Rand (who is still talking to them) would have noticed (particularly wrapped in Saidin, with its attention to detail) that there was an Illusion going on. I believe that I have presented enough counter-evidence to close the case on whether or not the servants were the killers of Asmodean. Now, lets look beyond the servants and into the culprits and find a few other major errors that the author of the “TTST†missed which completely destroy his theory of Sammael as the main killer.

The second half of his article is relatively sound when discounting Forsaken as suspects. Unfortunately he makes a grave mistake when he says that Semirhage has a POV disproving her as a suspect in the Prologue of Lord of Chaos. While she does have a POV I have failed to find any reference in that section to how she wouldn’t know about Asmodean’s death. The only thing that happens is in Demandred’s POV earlier, Shai’tan (I have no fear!) mentions that Asmodean will not be brought back. While Sammael in his own POV, states, “And why would he kill Asmodean? I would if I could find him, but he has gone over to al’Thor. He is teaching him!†While Graendal counters under her breath, “Always some excuse for your failures.†Here, we get Sammael stating right out that he wants to know where Asmodean is, and Graendal says only that seemingly suspicious answer? It can be interpreted to mean that Graendal knows more about that subject then she is letting on. Of course we know that the Forsaken also maneuver against each other, which means that Sammael could be lying. To find further proof, we move further along in LOC, chapter 23 to be exact, where Graendal replies to Sammael’s inquiry to the whereabouts of the other Forsaken.

I’m sure I know what Demandred is scheming, but where is he hiding? Where is Semirhage? Mesaana? What about Asmodean and Lanfear? Moghedien?

Those cold fingers returned, imprinting themselves on her skull. He would not lounge there and talk this way—he would not dare suggest what he was suggesting—unless. . . .â€Asmodean and Lanfear are dead, and I am sure Moghedien must be, too.â€

It is here that the final piece of who killed Asmodean comes into play. If there is a strong case for one of the Forsaken it is Graendal. This last part proves it, in a sense. For she is quite sure that Asmodean and Lanfear are dead, while she thinks Moghedien is dead to (though we know she’s not).

The two servants were in fact, just that. The location of the death, it really hardly mattered, while I may be completely wrong on my analysis of Graendal being the killer, I can say in full confidence that the Forsaken were NOT masquerading as servants when Rand encountered them.

[Jonn]

Already posted in two other threads....

 

Debunking The “Two Servants Theoryâ€

 

Travis G.

 

The original theory that I will be discussing, dissecting, and finally debunking (for the most part) can be found at the WOT Encyclopedia (http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/) under “Theories and Unanswered Questions.†While interesting and well thought out, there are blatant errors that all but those of us, who actually went back, double checked, and rehashed the actual text, would have found. Please, before you read this counter-argument, go back and analyze the original theory at the website posted above. It will make much more sense to you since I will be writing in direct relation to that document.

It is quite apparent that the author of this theory is correct in the location of Asmodean’s death. Unfortunately, that tells us less then we can hope. It is not an uncommon area for people to be wandering in. Rand states, “I walked this way with Elayne and Gawyn the day I met Morgase.†So now that we have the general location set (as presented in the TST), we can begin to dissect the encounter with the servants and really put to rest the myth that the killer had to be one or both.

The author of the “Two Servants Theory†claims that it is obvious that “they were more then servants.†I find this claim hard to prove. We need to realize whom we are talking about. The Forsaken. The passage where Rand encounters the pair of unlucky servants goes like this:

A man and a woman crouched against the wall, servants liveried in red and white, short of their middle years and holding each other as though for protection. Seeing Rand—there was more to the name; not just Rand—the man started to rise from where he had huddled away from the Myddraal-led band, but the woman hauled him back by his sleeve.

“Go in peace,†Rand said, putting out a hand. Al’Thor. Yes, Rand al’Thor. “I’ll not hurt you, but you could be hurt if you stay.â€

The woman’s brown eyes rolled up in her head. She would have collapsed in a heap if the man had not caught her, and his narrow mouth was working rapidly, as if he was praying but could not get the words out.

Rand looked where the man was looking. His hand had stretched out of his coat sleeve far enough to bare the Dragon’s golden maned head that was part of his skin. “I will not hurt you,†he said, and walked on, leaving them there. He had Rahvin to corner yet. Rahvin to kill. And then?â€

 

This is the paragraph that has been examined by this author. I find his conclusions concerning the servants mentioned in this paragraph quite absurd, while the obviousness at their lack of involvement is quite glaring. Considering that the killer of Asmodean must have been someone who could channel, considering the quickness and finality of his death. Which means that the servants (one or both) had to be the Forsaken if they were anything other then normal servants. I will dissect chronologically in this paragraph. When can you ever imagine any of the Forsaken “huddling together?†The entire mannerisms displayed by these servants’ defeats any idea that they could have been Forsaken. From the huddling, to the fainting, to the staring in awe while praying at Rand’s tattooed arms, none of which could coincide with any of the ways a forsaken would act. Especially Sammael or Graendal.

There is one other aspect that sheds opposing light onto whether both of the servants were Forsaken. Surely Rand would have noted a scar on the face of the man such as the one Sammael has during the description, since in multiple instances throughout the book, he uses Lews Therin’s memories to recognize faces, places, etc. So, if they were in fact Sammael or Graendal in disguise, they would be under Illusion. But, remember, when under Illusion, if you are touched, it is easily recognizable that it is not your real appearance. So when the female servant faints, and the male servant catches her, Rand (who is still talking to them) would have noticed (particularly wrapped in Saidin, with its attention to detail) that there was an Illusion going on. I believe that I have presented enough counter-evidence to close the case on whether or not the servants were the killers of Asmodean. Now, lets look beyond the servants and into the culprits and find a few other major errors that the author of the “TTST†missed which completely destroy his theory of Sammael as the main killer.

The second half of his article is relatively sound when discounting Forsaken as suspects. Unfortunately he makes a grave mistake when he says that Semirhage has a POV disproving her as a suspect in the Prologue of Lord of Chaos. While she does have a POV I have failed to find any reference in that section to how she wouldn’t know about Asmodean’s death. The only thing that happens is in Demandred’s POV earlier, Shai’tan (I have no fear!) mentions that Asmodean will not be brought back. While Sammael in his own POV, states, “And why would he kill Asmodean? I would if I could find him, but he has gone over to al’Thor. He is teaching him!†While Graendal counters under her breath, “Always some excuse for your failures.†Here, we get Sammael stating right out that he wants to know where Asmodean is, and Graendal says only that seemingly suspicious answer? It can be interpreted to mean that Graendal knows more about that subject then she is letting on. Of course we know that the Forsaken also maneuver against each other, which means that Sammael could be lying. To find further proof, we move further along in LOC, chapter 23 to be exact, where Graendal replies to Sammael’s inquiry to the whereabouts of the other Forsaken.

I’m sure I know what Demandred is scheming, but where is he hiding? Where is Semirhage? Mesaana? What about Asmodean and Lanfear? Moghedien?

Those cold fingers returned, imprinting themselves on her skull. He would not lounge there and talk this way—he would not dare suggest what he was suggesting—unless. . . .â€Asmodean and Lanfear are dead, and I am sure Moghedien must be, too.â€

It is here that the final piece of who killed Asmodean comes into play. If there is a strong case for one of the Forsaken it is Graendal. This last part proves it, in a sense. For she is quite sure that Asmodean and Lanfear are dead, while she thinks Moghedien is dead to (though we know she’s not).

The two servants were in fact, just that. The location of the death, it really hardly mattered, while I may be completely wrong on my analysis of Graendal being the killer, I can say in full confidence that the Forsaken were NOT masquerading as servants when Rand encountered them.

 

Most people on this site, from what I can tell, have either not even heard of the two servant theory or have already dismissed it.

 

As for Graendal saying that Asmodean is dead...wouldn't she have been told this by Demandred beforehand? Am I mistaking the timing here?

 

Wasn't there supposed to have been a meeting between some of the Forsaken including Graendal with Demandred there to give out memos? *edit* As I have checked the sevenspokes.com chronology timeline it says that yes, Graendal, Semirhage and Mesaana met with Demandred where he told them of his meeting with the Dark One about two weaks prior. (Which occured at the beginning of the book. LOC)

 

Sammael obviously wasn't there. About a day afterwards is when Graendal next meets Sammael.

It's even days afterwards where she says the statement that Asmodean is dead. This is all AFTER the meeting with Demandred.

 

That explains her knowledge of events and even that is rather vague as she got it from hearsay.

[Cybertrolloc]

Jonn, later in the same chapter as the Sammael/Graendal psych-off Semi still doesn't know what happened to Asmo :? She was at the meeting in the prologue too.

 

Two servants...I'd guess anyone that heard of it (it's on every WoT theory site I've seen) has probably also heard Jordan debunk it--they were servants. I'd say probably darkfriends, depends on how long Rhavin had the palace packed full of Trollocs.

[Jonn]

Jonn, later in the same chapter as the Sammael/Graendal psych-off Semi still doesn't know what happened to Asmo :? She was at the meeting in the prologue too.

 

Two servants...I'd guess anyone that heard of it (it's on every WoT theory site I've seen) has probably also heard Jordan debunk it--they were servants. I'd say probably darkfriends, depends on how long Rhavin had the palace packed full of Trollocs.

 

Can you do me the favor of quoting that piece for me.

I don't have the book with me at the moment.

 

I'm going to need a bit of context here.

 

Odds are she doesn't believe Demandred just because he says something.

 

I know, and Graendal does? Again, under pressure, she'll say a lot of things to throw Sammael off.

 

Fact is that none of these exchanges places a finger on the killer that we can just go with.

[Jonn]

Jonn, later in the same chapter as the Sammael/Graendal psych-off Semi still doesn't know what happened to Asmo :? She was at the meeting in the prologue too.

 

Two servants...I'd guess anyone that heard of it (it's on every WoT theory site I've seen) has probably also heard Jordan debunk it--they were servants. I'd say probably darkfriends, depends on how long Rhavin had the palace packed full of Trollocs.

 

Can you do me the favor of quoting that piece for me.

I don't have the book with me at the moment.

 

I'm going to need a bit of context here.

 

Odds are she doesn't believe Demandred just because he says something.

 

I know, and Graendal does? Again, under pressure, she'll say a lot of things to throw Sammael off.

 

Fact is that none of these exchanges places a finger on the killer that we can just go with.

 

Scratch that request I got it:

 

"More troubling were the Chosen who had vanished. Demandred insisted they must be dead, but she and Mesaana were not so sure."

[Red States Rule!]

Stupid question, but the killer hid Asmo's body, yes?

 

Why would someone hide his body? What do they have to gain from this? Who would gain from hiding the body?

[Jonn]

Stupid question, but the killer hid Asmo's body, yes?

 

Why would someone hide his body? What do they have to gain from this? Who would gain from hiding the body?

 

It could have been hidden...or destroyed.

[Cybertrolloc]

Jonn quoted:

"More troubling were the Chosen who had vanished. Demandred insisted they must be dead, but she and Mesaana were not so sure."

Who is they in this case? The passages immediately before your cite are both interesting and cloud the issue...much like the Sammael/Graendal scene that preceded it.

[Jonn]

Jonn quoted:

"More troubling were the Chosen who had vanished. Demandred insisted they must be dead, but she and Mesaana were not so sure."

Who is they in this case? The passages immediately before your cite are both interesting and cloud the issue...much like the Sammael/Graendal scene that preceded it.

 

The Chosen who had vanished. That's who "they" are.

 

I can give the full quote (There are very interesting pices in this portion so pay attention):

 

More troubling were the Chosen who had vanished. Demandred insisted they must be dead, but she (Semirhage) and Mesaana were not so sure. Lanfear. If there was any justice, time would give her Lanfear. The woman was always there when least expected, always behaving as if she had the right to dabble her fingers in others’ plans, always flitting to safety if her dabbling brought ruin. Moghedien. She skulked out of sight, but she had never gone so long before without making herself known, just to remind the rest of them that she, too, was Chosen. Asmodean. A traitor, and so doomed, but he really had vanished, and Shaidar Haran’s existence and her own orders here combined to remind her that the Great Lord worked in his own ways toward his own goals.

 

The Chosen were no more than pieces on the board; they might be Counselors and Spires, but they were still pieces. If the Great Lord moved her here secretly, might he not be moving Moghedien or Lanfear, or even Asmodean? Might Shaidar Haran not be sent to deliver covert commands to Graendal or Sammael? Or for that matter, to Demandred or Mesaana? Their uneasy alliance—if it could be called by so strong a name—had lasted a long time, but neither would tell her if they received secret orders from the Great Lord, any more than she would ever let them learn of the orders that had brought her here, or those that had had her send Myrddraal and Trollocs to the Stone of Tear to battle those sent by Sammael.

 

This is the thing. Semirhage was at the meeting with Demandred. She just doesn't believe everything that is said to her nor does she take anything for face value.

She's thinking this all to herself in this scene, she isn't talking to anyone else let alone one of the Forsaken. It's a sharp contrast to Sammael's POV with Graendal the scene before. When they "share" information it's a huge game to find the tiny grain of truth that resides in the muck of lies and misdirections that fly out of each others mouths. So anything that is actually said by Graendal in this passage is highly doubtful to be the whole truth ot it.

 

Semirhage confirms much of this by revealing that she is skeptical even of Demandred who she and Mesaana are allied to rather loosely. She herself has been given secret instructions that pit the Chosen against one another's purposes from the Dark One himself. The scene before Sammael references Lanfear's supposed involvement in the Stone of Tear assault. It turns out that it was Semirhage all along...It's completely out of the blue and the last person you would have thought of because we hadn't seen Semirhage at all in The Shadow Rising.

 

These passages serve to only confirm that Semirhage didn't do it and Sammael didn't do it. The only reason we can eliminate Semi and Samm is because it is their POV and they openly wonder what happened to Asmodean. Both Semi and Sam are told by other Chosen that Asmodean is dead and both react differently. Sammael gets it second hand from Graendal who got the information at the same time as Semirhage did from Demandred. Sammael is obviously more skeptical.

 

It's not a matter of elimination leaving only Graendal either. When she tells Sammael that Asmodean must be dead, she lumps Asmodean in with Lanfear and Moghedien. lanfear, she really has no way of confirming. Moghedien is an outright lie. Asmodean stands to be the only one who was truly dead, but neither did she admit to being the killer. She had no internal thoughts about his death or the manner of. It stands to reason that she knows as much about Lanfear and Moghedien supposedly dying as she does about Asmodean dying. As she said to Sammael in the beginning of the book, she knew about as much as he did about these things.

 

Flash forward to 5 book slater, still no thoughts on her part about her supposed murder of Asmodean and that's major.

 

Asmodean becoming a traitor and getting zapped for his trouble is a major event for the Forsaken. To not even think about it, having been responsible is completely out of character for any of these people. It's about as out of character as Slayer bragging about the aes sedai and not mentioning Asmodean. The ommission should be seen as an elimination. Graendal is a red herring, placed specifically to keep us guessing.