Birgette and The Horn of Valere

[Midean]

This came to my attention in another thread and i want to hear people's thoughts on it.

 

Birgette is tied to The Horn of Valere as one of its hero's bound to return and fight for whoever sounds the horn.

Birgette came when Mat blew the horn at Falme, but now that she is Alive, what will happen to her when Mat blows the horn at Tarmon'Gaidon?

[Krazikarl]

It seems that when somebody is spun out into the real world, that their soul leaves Tel'aran'rhiod.  After all, Birgette says that she cant find Gaidal there anymore.  So I would imagine that she wont be showing up in spirit form if she were alive when the Horn was blown since the Horn seems to simply take some specific souls stored in the World of Dreams and stick them in the real world for a bit.

[silent_spectre]

It seems safe to say that she will not be able to answer the summons from the Horn as she is flesh and blood already.

 

But more interesting is:

 

1) Is Birgitte still actually bound to the Horn as a hero?

 

2) Is Birgitte still bound to the Wheel as she was ripped from the Pattern?

[fikkie77]

1 and 2: yes, she is. If she wasn't bound to the Wheel, she wouldn't be alive. Her thread in the pattern still influences others and is influenced by others. This means that if she would die and the Horn would be blown, she would be summoned as a heroe of the Horn.

She won't be summoned as long as she is flesh and blood.

[Mr. Dragon]

We don't know exactly what moghedian did to birgette so it is difficult to say with absolute certainty that she is still bound to the horn although I do think she is. The only way to know for sure is to wait and find out.

[Luckers]

Firstly, as I said in the other thread, birgitte is not bound to the horn. She is bound to the wheel. The wheel binds such souls and holds them seperately to spin out at need as a part of a self correcting machenism. The horn is a seperate, artificial construct which taps in to this aspect of the Wheel in order to call upon the Heroes as a weapon.

 

If the horn were blown whilst she was alive the same thing would happen to her that happened to Rand at falme. Nothing.

 

1 and 2: yes, she is. If she wasn't bound to the Wheel, she wouldn't be alive. Her thread in the pattern still influences others and is influenced by others. This means that if she would die and the Horn would be blown, she would be summoned as a heroe of the Horn.

 

Thats not actually true. Many people exist who arn't bound to the Wheel--the vast majority, in fact. Indeed she nearly did die until Elayne pulled her back in using the bond. That being said Min's viewings (which according to RJ refer to the future) speak of more actions than any person could experience in one life. This suggests that she is indeed still bound to the Wheel, and thus subject to the Horn's call whilst she is dead.

[mb]

1) Is Birgitte still actually bound to the Horn as a hero?

Bound to the Horn and being a Hero, both of those are the same thing; also bound to the Wheel.

 

2) Is Birgitte still bound to the Wheel as she was ripped from the Pattern?

Ripped from the Pattern? Actually ripped from Telaranrhiod.  Ripped from the Pattern might more accurately be balefire.

 

It seems to me that both questions are asking the same thing.

Since Birgitte was still able to locate Nynaeve in Telaranrhiod later in the book, it seems she is still a Hero (and bound to the Horn and bound to the Wheel).  Also, Min's viewings of her (Birgitte) in Winter's Heart seem to indicate that she (Birgitte) is still linked to Gaidal Cain; which in turn indicates still being a Hero.

 

 

Birgette came when Mat blew the horn at Falme, but now that she is Alive, what will happen to her when Mat blows the horn at Tarmon'Gaidon?

The Horn does nothing to alive people.

 

[arkinia]

Assuming Heroes are not ripped out of Tel'Aran'Rhiod every day, does doing so mean anything? What would happen if Birgitte died? Or if she died and then the horn was blown? Or what if she was pulled into T'A'R while alive and then the horn was blown! Or what if she died in T'A'R and then the horn was blown! Or what if she was beat over the head with the horn and died of blunt-force trauma CSI style and then the horn was blown, wouldn't that be ironic?

[Luckers]

Assuming Heroes are not ripped out of Tel'Aran'Rhiod every day, does doing so mean anything? What would happen if Birgitte died? Or if she died and then the horn was blown?

 

Min has had viewings of future lives for Birgitte, so she is still bound to the Wheel. Presumably if she dies she will return to TAR and thus be called if the horn is blown.

 

Or what if she was pulled into T'A'R while alive and then the horn was blown! Or what if she died in T'A'R and then the horn was blown! Or what if she was beat over the head with the horn and died of blunt-force trauma CSI style and then the horn was blown, wouldn't that be ironic?

 

With one exception I don't see why any of this would change anything. If she were killed in TAR she'd go to TAR, and thus be accessible to the Horn.

 

The one exception is what if she were in TAR when the horn was blown--and this isn't just limited to her, but applies to anyone in TAR when this occurs.

 

It is my belief that what the Horn does, simply put, is blur the barrier between the waking world and the dream world. This allows the Heroes to manifest, and allows for their abilities (which fit more with TAR than the real world). It also explains alot of what occurred at Falme. With the Horn softening reality into the more malleable state that TAR exists in, the presence of three ta'veren and the push of the wheel for the Dragon to announce himself had an effect such that it literally controlled events (the seanchan falling back when Rand advanced, and advancing when he was driven back) and also this may be responsible for the visions Taim and that fellow in Haddon Mirk had.

 

So what would happen to someone in TAR when the Horn were blown? I don't know. Maybe nothing. Maybe alot. It might kill them. It might enable them to manifest in the real world in the same way as the heroes. It might simply make them wake up. Or it might do nothing.