Rand al'Sue. (Spoilers from book 3 up to 11)

[Shard]

I'm amused by the Galad reference, because Galad is the most incredibly beautiful man in the world ever, the mere sight of whom brings women to their knees (figuratively speaking, you filthy-minded people), an awe-inspiringly brilliant swordsman, and a virtuous, just and noble man.

 

Wow, this is like knocking down skittles. :D

 

See? And people say Rand is the Gary Stu. lol

[Sirayn]

Rand is still considerably worse than Galad, but the Wheel of Time is populated with armies of these characters. That's what you get when your main cast is all teenage to 20-something, wildly attractive, incredibly powerful, most of them are prophesied and/or destined heroes and they end up ruling the world before they're 25. :D

[Shard]

Rand is still considerably worse than Galad, but the Wheel of Time is populated with armies of these characters. That's what you get when your main cast is all teenage to 20-something, wildly attractive, incredibly powerful, most of them are prophesied and/or destined heroes and they end up ruling the world before they're 25. :D

 

How is he worse then Galad? Do women randomly throw them selves at him for no other reason then he's inhumanly good looking? Does he go around thinking it's sad how no one can follow the rules like he can?

[Sirayn]

Is Galad the Messiah of fifteen thousand prophecies lovingly detailing his heroism and awesomeness? :D

[Shard]

You should never have picked up the series then since that's the premise of the story. You mean the 3 prophices that detail how he will save them and break them at the same time? The same ones that make people like Piadron Niall think he is the Dark One? Those prophecies the ones half the nations ignore and want to pretend that Rand isn't who he says he is. Yeah cause the moment he grabbed Callandor EVERYONE just simply bowed to him and did exactly as he told him, no one has ever gone behind his back and tried to assassinate or undermine him what so ever.

[Mr Ares]

I get it. The joke was: "Angry, rude and get away with it." Some would say that was a good description of me. Hence dragging me into it. Some people are slow learners.

Ah, for the rude part, I can see why.

Starting to learn, then.

 

And regardless of why Berelain wants him, the fact that she tries only adds up to his 'coolness'.

Yes, nothing is cooler than someone trying to manipulate you.

 

Edit: And we don't know what's going on in side her head. It could be personal desire, or political, or both.

Yes, we do. It is political. She is looking after Mayene. She doesn't care about Rand except insofar as he can be of use to her.

 

Forgive my igonrance' date=' but what is a Sue character?[/quote']An overly idealised character with no noteworthy flaws. So, not Rand, who is an insane tyrant.

 

Actually if RJ wrote a Mary Sue into WOT' date=' a character that reflects him, his alter ego then it would be Thom --the Story Teller. Which gives his relationship with moirraine a whole new dimension (is Moiraine loosely based on Harriet?).[/quote']Well, there is something of Harriet in Moiraine, but then there is in all the women, by his own admission. All the charcters, to some extent, are based on RJ, being filtered through his mind, being his creations. So there is something of him in Thom. However, Thom is not a Sue, despite that. He doesn't really give the impression that RJ is bending over backwards to tell you how amazing he is. He spends most of his time in the background, being secondary to others.

 

I'm surprised that despite the phrase of life some people are heading towards' date=' they're incapable of agreeing to disagree without personal attacks.[/quote']He wasn't agreeing to disagree, he was just disagreeing.

 

Least I'm not convinced yet' date=' any proofs?[/quote']No, because he isn't.

 

Out of curiosity I ran Rand through the Original Fiction Mary Sue Litmus Test' date=' and even skipping a bunch of questions because I couldn't remember, he scored an 81. (71 points and above is classed as an Irredeemable Sue.)[/quote']I tried it and got 36. Just barely a Sue. I also ran myself through. I scored quite high. So, if you believe this test, I'm amazing. Too good to be true.

 

* The author's darling, who is never wrong. Rand, no. Me, yes.

* Beautiful/handsome, sexy, charismatic, widely beloved. Rand, not widely beloved. Me, all the above.

* Successful, famous, powerful, super-skilled. Rand, yes. Me, yes. Except for the fame.

* Heroic, brave, daring, self-sacrificial. Yes for both of us.

* Has incredibly powerful intuition which tells him/her exactly what role a character will play in a story, allowing him/her to instantly recognise well-hidden bad guys and/or cranky good guys with secret hearts of gold. No for both of us.

* Awe-inspiringly smart. Rand, no. Me, of course. Who could doubt it?

* Best of the best at something, even though s/he is staggeringly young and/or inexperienced and/or just wildly unlikely to be so good. Rand, very good at several things, but not the best of the best. Me? Well, modesty forbids.

* Tragic pasts of inner pain and woe. No for Rand.

* Beset by haters, who mistreat him/her for no apparent reason to extort reader sympathy. Bonus points if they're jealous of his/her overwhelming awesomeness. No, for both of us. Although many people are jealous of my overwhelming awesomeness.

* Astoundingly accomplished, doing things people never thought were possible, revolutionising various fields, etc. Rand, yes. Me...you have to ask?

 

Firstly' date=' Rand's three wives situation is not a problem with his character, but with the women's. It's another example of how unrealistic, irrational and ridiculous most of the female characters in tWoT are.[/quote']You've actually met women?

 

it's equally plausable that said young man would love to have a blonde, brunette and redhead on his arm.

He wasn't exactly falling over himself with glee. He was of the opinion he shouldn't be lusting after all three. The only reason he ended up with all of them is that they decided between them that it was all or nothing. They eventually cam around to the idea, made their peace with it, and took charge.

[anthony draco]

Starting to learn, then.

No, but you're welcome to try and make me.

 

And regardless of why Berelain wants him, the fact that she tries only adds up to his 'coolness'.

Actually, it's someone trying to have sex with you, regardless of the reason, that adds the 'fabricated' coolness. And if you believe having someone trying to manipulate you is cool, feel free to suit yourself with them.

 

Yes, we do. It is political. She is looking after Mayene. She doesn't care about Rand except insofar as he can be of use to her.

No, we don't. You don't read inside her head.

 

He wasn't agreeing to disagree, he was just disagreeing.

I know that by now. You're many hours too slow.

[Mr Ares]

Starting to learn, then.

No, but you're welcome to try and make me.

Oh dear.

 

And regardless of why Berelain wants him, the fact that she tries only adds up to his 'coolness'.

Actually, it's someone trying to have sex with you, regardless of the reason, that adds the 'fabricated' coolness. And if you believe having someone trying to manipulate you is cool, feel free to suit yourself with them.

Someone trying to have sex with you is cool? So Mat's "Crowning Moment of Awesome" was when Tylin had sex with him at knifepoint. Nothing, but nothing, could be cooler than that.

 

Edit: And we don't know what's going on in side her head. It could be personal desire, or political, or both.

No, we don't. You don't read inside her head.

"We" don't, those of us who can read do. She wasn't interested in him.

 

He wasn't agreeing to disagree, he was just disagreeing.

I know that by now. You're many hours too slow.

You worked it out eventually? It should have been clear from first glance. Unless you don't know what "agreeing to disagree" actually means? Well, you don't know what logic is, so it wouldn't surprise me.

[anthony draco]

Starting to learn, then.

No, but you're welcome to try and make me.

Oh dear.

 

And regardless of why Berelain wants him, the fact that she tries only adds up to his 'coolness'.

Actually, it's someone trying to have sex with you, regardless of the reason, that adds the 'fabricated' coolness. And if you believe having someone trying to manipulate you is cool, feel free to suit yourself with them.

Someone trying to have sex with you is cool? So Mat's "Crowning Moment of Awesome" was when Tylin had sex with him at knifepoint. Nothing, but nothing, could be cooler than that.

 

Edit: And we don't know what's going on in side her head. It could be personal desire, or political, or both.

No, we don't. You don't read inside her head.

"We" don't, those of us who can read do. She wasn't interested in him.

 

He wasn't agreeing to disagree, he was just disagreeing.

I know that by now. You're many hours too slow.

You worked it out eventually? It should have been clear from first glance. Unless you don't know what "agreeing to disagree" actually means? Well, you don't know what logic is, so it wouldn't surprise me.

 

Oh, dear, now it seems that your perception of the world seem to be that everyone who can read must think like you do. Doesn't surprise me.

[Mr Ares]

Oh, dear, now it seems that your perception of the world seem to be that everyone who can read must think like you do. Doesn't surprise me.

Anyone who has read the series properly would be left in no doubt as to Berelain's motives in that scene.

[anthony draco]

Oh, dear, now it seems that your perception of the world seem to be that everyone who can read must think like you do. Doesn't surprise me.

Anyone who has read the series properly would be left in no doubt as to Berelain's motives in that scene.

Not that you can prove that anyway. There's no such thing as 100% tolerance. Or absolute certainty.

[Mr Ares]

The evidence all points one way.

[anthony draco]

Meaning you can't show it. Otherwise you would have by now.

[Shard]

How about when she admits to Perrin that she's only been with two men, and that it was for political reasons she did this. This shows she has a history of doing that sort of thing, using Sex for political gain. This also shows that she doesn't sleep with just anyone and not all of them either. Meaning she doesn't have "meaningless casual sex", it's always for a purpose that of protecting her Country.  It would make Rand seem just the kind of target she would go after.

 

She is obviously not in love with Rand either since the text clearly shows she has no interest in him what so ever after the Bubble of Evil Mirror incident. So the only reason left for her to sleep with Rand is for political gain.

 

The whole thing is written in a manner that doesn't seem at all "Look at how cool Rand is!" and more like an uncomfortable scene where Rand wants nothing to do with her, gets attacked and Berelain then realizes that it's a bad idea to be too close to the Dragon. The Cool meter doesn't even enter into this scenario.

[anthony draco]

Don't get me wrong. I do believe that she does really like Perin now. But I said that it's not absolute certainty. If she said she did it for political reasons to someone else it only means it could include this reason too when it came to Rand. It doesn't rule this out. Not to mention the possibity that she can lie to Perrin. Ppl lie. She likes Perrin now and I too believe that she's never seriously liked Rand, but that doesn't tell us that liking Rand didn't occur to her when she tried to seduce him. Very certain is not absolutely certain. Fearing him also tells us that she doesn't like Rand anymore, not never liked. There's just the possibility.

[RubberDucky]

Don't get me wrong. I do believe that she does really like Perin now. But I said that it's not absolute certainty. If she said she did it for political reasons to someone else it only means it could include this reason too when it came to Rand. It doesn't rule this out. Not to mention the possibity that she can lie to Perrin. Ppl lie. She likes Perrin now and I too believe that she's never seriously liked Rand, but that doesn't tell us that liking Rand didn't occur to her when she tried to seduce him. Very certain is not absolutely certain. Fearing him also tells us that she doesn't like Rand anymore, not never liked. There's just the possibility.

I don't see why you're pressing so hard on such a small fact, when it is more true that Berelain seduced Rand for political reasons than seducing him for a non-political reason. Yes, it is not 100% certain that Berelain did, since we never read from her mind to confirm this fact, but many things do allude to such a confirmation.

 

You seem to be arguing on just because you can't accept defeat in a debate. Under your logic, many things that we read from the book that aren't 100% certain, confirmed from the author's testimonies or characters' point of view, could well be false, even if many things allude to or point towards it.

[anthony draco]

I agree with Berelain not seriously liking him. But I was clarifying what I meant by 'no absolute certainty.' He said whoever can read MUST arrive to that conclusion. I can arrive to the same conclusion with you all the same while leaving room for that too, despite that room being tiny.

 

Edit: And Berelain is just one of the reasons I provided.

[Mr Ares]

Meaning you can't show it. Otherwise you would have by now.

Or just that I can't be bothered.

 

Don't get me wrong. I do believe that she does really like Perin now. But I said that it's not absolute certainty. If she said she did it for political reasons to someone else it only means it could include this reason too when it came to Rand. It doesn't rule this out. Not to mention the possibity that she can lie to Perrin. Ppl lie. She likes Perrin now and I too believe that she's never seriously liked Rand, but that doesn't tell us that liking Rand didn't occur to her when she tried to seduce him. Very certain is not absolutely certain. Fearing him also tells us that she doesn't like Rand anymore, not never liked. There's just the possibility.

So where's your evidence for her doing it for any reason other than politics? Obviously, you can't show it, or you would have done by now. Just a lot of assumptions, nothing with any evidence to back it.

 

He said whoever can read MUST arrive to that conclusion.

Because it is the only reasonable conclusion to arrive at.

 

And Berelain is just one of the reasons I provided.

And just one of the reasons provided why you're wrong.

[anthony draco]

You think it's reasonable, doesn't mean it must be so. Nor that you can show any evidence saying it is.

 

And maybe it's because I can't bother showing the evidence either. And if you can't show, and I can't show, I have the right to believe in what I want.

[Mr Ares]

You think it's reasonable, doesn't mean it must be so.

It's reasonable, nothing else is. And evidence has already been provided to support her political motivations, none at all to support her personal attraction.

I have the right to believe in what I want.

Even when it's wrong.

[Kivam]

Oh, dear, now it seems that your perception of the world seem to be that everyone who can read must think like you do. Doesn't surprise me.

Anyone who has read the series properly would be left in no doubt as to Berelain's motives in that scene.

Not that you can prove that anyway. There's no such thing as 100% tolerance. Or absolute certainty.

 

Yes, it's impossible to "prove" according to a standard you would believe, since you're convinced of the correctness of your own view and RJ is dead, so even if he was inclined to grab you, shake you, and correct you, he can't do it anymore.

 

But I agree with Ares - you have to really try hard to miss the obviousness of Berelain's motives there.

[Kivam]

I'm amused by the Galad reference, because Galad is the most incredibly beautiful man in the world ever, the mere sight of whom brings women to their knees (figuratively speaking, you filthy-minded people), an awe-inspiringly brilliant swordsman, and a virtuous, just and noble man.

 

Wow, this is like knocking down skittles. :D

 

Who every other character in the books can't stand

[csarmi]

So we can sue Galad?

[The Doctor]

If there is a male character in the series that represents the ultimate cool guy it's definitely not Rand.  I would say Mat and Lan are both more ultimately cool than Rand.  Mat is basically James Bond and Lan is the serious Conan Alpha Male.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

Many of RJ's characters are improbably awesome (ta'veren?).  That doesn't make them Sues though.  I think Egwene and Mat are the most Sue-like.  Egwene especially, because she gets away with everything and her flaws never seem to hold her back.