Asmoden.

[cannon]

Every so often I go off on this topic in the other forum. I just did so again if anyone cares to take a look at my reasons for why it's Lanfear.

 

5th post down:

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=85&start=1710

 

As for Graendal, she has no motive. Nothing more elaborate than "any forsaken would want to kill another forsaken given the chance", which just isn't strong. That motive is as lame as Moiraine's "kill all Shadow things after doing nothing about it for months".

 

As to means, it was balefire. The literary similarities are too close to Bel'al's death to be ignored. So that rules out all non-channelers.

 

As for Moiraine, if you accept that she could have in any way possibly done it, then you have to conclude that Lanfear was the killer. She had much better motive.

 

As to Lanfear's motive, she had the best of anyone in the series. She was planning to all along, and would have been pretty pissed at Asmo after Rand's performance at the docks.

 

As to obviousness, Lanfear is the only possible candidate. Asmo was thinking of her seconds before he died. Irony is a common literary device, and has been used by RJ often.

[RobertAlexWillis]

As for Graendal, she has no motive.

 

Her motive wasn't revenge or punishment for Asmodean, it was ridding al'Thor of a teacher.

 

As to means, it was balefire. The literary similarities are too close to Bel'al's death to be ignored. So that rules out all non-channelers.

 

I buy that, Graendal is a channeler.

 

As for Moiraine, if you accept that she could have in any way possibly done it, then you have to conclude that Lanfear was the killer. She had much better motive.

 

As to Lanfear's motive, she had the best of anyone in the series. She was planning to all along, and would have been pretty pissed at Asmo after Rand's performance at the docks.

 

As to obviousness, Lanfear is the only possible candidate. Asmo was thinking of her seconds before he died. Irony is a common literary device, and has been used by RJ often.

 

I don't buy Moiraine, so I don't "have" to buy Lanfear. She was held by the Eelfinn at the time. What, she got out, killed Asmodean, then WENT BACK? THEN got killed and trangmigrated? That's just ridiculous.

 

As to her motive, she was angry at one person: Rand al'Thor. He would not ever be her Lews Therin. She was and is obsessed with him. Ever wonder why she got mindtrapped? The other Forsaken who got killed and transmigrated didn't get mindtrapped. It is a leash on Cyndane, so that she doesn't just go and kill Rand al'Thor. If she somehow DID get a few moments of freedom from the Eelfinn (HIGHLY unlikely), and could still channel (not a given) then she would have had one target and one target only: Rand al'Thor. Asmodean was ... an annoyance, someone she would have killed if a convenient opportunity was dropped in her path maybe, but not someone she would have used her "three wishes" (if she got them) on.

[Guest Majsju]

As to her motive, she was angry at one person: Rand al'Thor. He would not ever be her Lews Therin. She was and is obsessed with him. Ever wonder why she got mindtrapped? The other Forsaken who got killed and transmigrated didn't get mindtrapped. It is a leash on Cyndane, so that she doesn't just go and kill Rand al'Thor. If she somehow DID get a few moments of freedom from the Eelfinn (HIGHLY unlikely), and could still channel (not a given) then she would have had one target and one target only: Rand al'Thor. Asmodean was ... an annoyance, someone she would have killed if a convenient opportunity was dropped in her path maybe, but not someone she would have used her "three wishes" (if she got them) on.

 

Take Cyndane's POV in WH as a good example of this. She is Royally pissed and has only one thing in mind when she goes to the cleansing: kill Rand. She has had over a year to calm down, she is mindtrapped to keep her somewhat controlled (though I don't agree that she was mindtrapped to keep her from running off trying to kill Rand, I think that Ishy knew that she had helped Rand by giving him Asmo, and that's what merited a mindtrap. Pretty much same reason as Moghedien, helping the enemy.)

 

In Lanfears mind, Rand betrayed her when he slept with Avi. If Lanfear got the opportunity to kill one person while she's being held by the finns, it would be a toss-up between Rand and Avi, only once both of them are dead (or in Rands case at least captured and controlled), she might consider going after Asmo.

[cannon]

This really is pointless. It's become a religious debate at this point and most people will not change their minds.

 

And quite frankly, you can't make me believe that Lanfear didn't blame Asmodean for Rand's success. Her hate of Rand is not so all-consuming as to totally miss the person who was helping to teach him. The person that SHE put there.

 

(I notice you conveniently ignored all of my literary and Jordan statement evidence)

 

Graendal's motive of removing Rand's teacher is nowhere near as good as Lanfear's motive for killing him. The best thing that Graendal has going for her is lack of serious arguments against her. Process of Elimination just doesn't do it for me.

[Guest Majsju]

(I notice you conveniently ignored all of my literary and Jordan statement evidence)

 

I ignored them because they are not by any means evidence. And because they have been ripped apart at least ten times in that thread alone. But I suppose I can give a short version on why they don't mean anything.

 

She had the motive, MUCH more so than any other character in the series. After Rand's show of strength at the docks, she would have been furious with Asmo, blaming him for Rand's ability.

 

At the docks, it's much more raw strength than any skills that keeps Rand going as long as he does. Lanfear was killing him when moiraine interfered, and she can't really put any blame on Asmo for what Moiraine does. And Asmo's teaching has nothing to do with rand's strength. As Lanfear says herself in the prologue of TFOH, he is LTT reborn, and thus the same potential strength as LTT.

 

Lanfear does not have any more motive than any other of the forsaken. She does however have a far stronger motive to kill Rand and Avi.

 

She planned to kill him from the very beginning. She said exactly that to Rand

 

And where exactly does she say this? In Rhuidean? I think you should read that part again, as what she actually say is that she must not kill Asmo.

 

She certainly had the means, by way of balefire. And balefire is the only possible cause. The literary similarities between Asmo and Bel'al's death are too great to be ignored.

 

Means are irrelevant when you don't have the opportunity. Lanfear was Held by the finns at the time. Prisoners are usually not allowed to go out and kill people.

 

And take a good look at the entire situation. The finns would first have to teleport Lanfear to Caemlyn, an ability we've never seen them possess. Then they would teleport her back against her will, again an ability we've never seen. And then they would hold her captive for some time.

It doesn't work.

 

And if she would have gotten an opportunity to use a wish to kill one person, with quite harsh effects on her afterwards, she would not have wasted that on Asmo, she would have killed Rand, or possibly Avi. Even Moiraine would be ahead of Asmo on the "must die" list. The woman responsible for putting Lanfear where she is.

 

She's the only one he was terrified of, and he clearly was terrified upon entering that door.

 

Asmo knows he's a dead man if he ever encounters any of the forsaken. And with the shield he knows there's absolutely nothing he can do to defend himself. He would indeed be terrified to see any of them standing there in front of him.

 

Amso thought of her only moments before he died, thinking he was glad she was dead. This seems pretty "obvious" to me.

 

He is actually thinking about all of the forsaken, he only names Lanfear and Rahvin. He thinks that he would laugh when everyone of them died, and what's obvious there is why he would laugh, every dead forsaken means one person less wanting him dead.

 

Besides the obvious comment, Jordan stated that by the end of PoD, you should have been able to figure it out. The only significant thing to happen in this book (in terms of the suspects) was that Cyndane appeared. This now proves that Lanfear is not dead (at least not permanently).

 

You forget that Cyndane's identity is not confirmed until WH.

Another thing that happens in POD is that we see Graendal rummaging through sammaels belongings in Illian. Which proves that she is not afraid to go to a place where she might stumble into Rand at any given moment.

Conveniently ignoring, right

 

Edit: Something else I thought of as well. The other big mystery to this is why would Jordan bother keeping it a secret? The only explanation I can come up with at this point is that it has to do specifically with the Finns, which we'll find out about during the rescue of Moiraine.

 

Not everything is part of some greater mystery. RJ might simply enjoy seeing us squirm about this. He did admit as much regarding the Taimandred theory, that he more or less deliberatly waited with giving us undeniable evidence that disproved Taimandred just because he thought it was fun to see us squirm (squirm being his word)

[RobertAlexWillis]

And quite frankly, you can't make me believe that Lanfear didn't blame Asmodean for Rand's success.

 

And there is the crux of the matter. None of us can make you believe anything. In fact, no one can MAKE anyone believe ANYTHING. So, we'll just have to wait won't we.

 

As for ignoring your literary "evidence" ....

 

:roll:

 

I can and frequently have quoted the texts, referencing Book, Chapter, and page number (in the edition which I have, other editions may vary page number), as well as statements made by RJ, with reference to where I got them. I don't feel like regurgitating all that here. Feel free to pretend that that invalidates my arguments. My arguments in favor of my theories are detailed in the Who killed Asmodean? thread. Feel free to peruse them. I'm sure they won't change your mind.

[cannon]

(I notice you conveniently ignored all of my literary and Jordan statement evidence)

I ignored them because they are not by any means evidence.

Very true, "evidence" was the wrong word to use. But those arguments are still better than anything I've heard for Graendal.

 

She had the motive, MUCH more so than any other character in the series. After Rand's show of strength at the docks, she would have been furious with Asmo, blaming him for Rand's ability.

At the docks, it's much more raw strength than any skills that keeps Rand going as long as he does. Lanfear was killing him when moiraine interfered, and she can't really put any blame on Asmo for what Moiraine does. And Asmo's teaching has nothing to do with rand's strength. As Lanfear says herself in the prologue of TFOH, he is LTT reborn, and thus the same potential strength as LTT.

It wasn't strength alone that saved him. Most of their battle consisted of trying to shield each other and cutting the other's weave before being successful. He certainly couldn't do that last time they met, so are you telling me that she wouldn't blame Asmo for that?

 

She planned to kill him from the very beginning. She said exactly that to Rand

And where exactly does she say this? In Rhuidean? I think you should read that part again, as what she actually say is that she must not kill Asmo.

No, not in Rhuidean. Farther back, in Tear, before we ever actually meet Asmo.

 

Kneel to the Great Lord, and he will set you above all others. He will leave you free to reign as you will, so long as you bend knee to him only once. To acknowledge him. No more than that. He told me this. Asmodean will teach you to wield the Power without it killing you, teach you what you can do with it. Let me help you. We can destroy all the others. The Great Lord will not care. We can destroy all of them, even Asmodean, once he has taught you all you need to know. You and I can rule the world together under the Great Lord, forever.

 

Her plan the entire time has been to have Asmodean teach Rand and then kill him once he had learned enough.

 

 

I'm going to ignore the rest of the comments, and the slighty more snarky ones from Robert because he's right. We will never change each other's minds. I simply wanted to correct the points where I feel you were factually wrong.

[Guest Majsju]

Very true, "evidence" was the wrong word to use. But those arguments are still better than anything I've heard for Graendal.

 

Nope.

 

It wasn't strength alone that saved him. Most of their battle consisted of trying to shield each other and cutting the other's weave before being successful. He certainly couldn't do that last time they met, so are you telling me that she wouldn't blame Asmo for that?

 

We do know that women compensate being weaker in the power by being better at weaving, so no matter how much Asmo had taught Rand, if it hadn't been for his strength Lanfear would eventually have gotten to him. And oh, she did even with Asmo's teaching. She would have killed Rand if it hadn't been for Moiraine.

 

So she would be mad at Asmo for teaching Rand something that in the end didn't actually help him very much?

 

No, not in Rhuidean. Farther back, in Tear, before we ever actually meet Asmo.

 

Oh that. That is completely irrelevant. Please go back and read her statement about killing Asmo in its proper context. When she realizes Rand will never join her, the motive she states for killing Asmo in Tear is gone.

 

Her plan the entire time has been to have Asmodean teach Rand and then kill him once he had learned enough.

 

Again, read the actual context.

 

I'm going to ignore the rest of the comments, and the slighty more snarky ones from Robert because he's right. We will never change each other's minds. I simply wanted to correct the points where I feel you were factually wrong.

 

So you agree with several points that constitutes a strong case against Lanfear? It's a start.

[cannon]

We do know that women compensate being weaker in the power by being better at weaving, so no matter how much Asmo had taught Rand, if it hadn't been for his strength Lanfear would eventually have gotten to him.

If it hadn't been for his knowledge, she would have shielded him immediately.

 

So she would be mad at Asmo for teaching Rand something that in the end didn't actually help him very much?

It helped a LOT, and regardless of outcome, she still would have been mad at him for making her work so hard.

 

No, not in Rhuidean. Farther back, in Tear, before we ever actually meet Asmo.

Oh that. That is completely irrelevant. Please go back and read her statement about killing Asmo in its proper context. When she realizes Rand will never join her, the motive she states for killing Asmo in Tear is gone.

I couldn't disagree more. The motive is most certainly not gone, as I say above. And her plan of killing Asmo after he teaches Rand is not negated just because Rand doesn't want to go along with her.

 

I'm going to ignore the rest of the comments, and the slighty more snarky ones from Robert because he's right. We will never change each other's minds. I simply wanted to correct the points where I feel you were factually wrong.

So you agree with several points that constitutes a strong case against Lanfear? It's a start.

I'm pretty sure you're just poking fun at me here, but my words are ambiguous so I'll try to be more clear. I do not agree with any of your counter-arguments. However, Robert is right when he says that we will never change each other's minds.

[Guest cwestervelt]

RobertAlexWillis:

I still think it cannot be the forsaken as i think there was one point when tey all thought he was hiding even though we already knew he was dead.

 

Graendal didn't. She is the only one that constantly says he must be dead. She knew he was with Rand (from Lanfear), and since she was part of the cabal with Rahvin, she had knowledge of as well as reason to be in Caemlyn.

 

Not true. Demandred went to Shayol Ghul where the Dark One himself told him Asmodean was dead. He then meets with Graendal and I think both Mesaana and Semirhage to pass on what he was told and instructed. That happened before Graendal revealed any knowledge of Asmodean's demise.

[Guest Majsju]

If it hadn't been for his knowledge, she would have shielded him immediately.

 

Right, because learning how to defend himself against being shielded would of course not be one of the very first things he started to try to figure out himself.

 

It helped a LOT, and regardless of outcome, she still would have been mad at him for making her work so hard.

 

Due to the old "Damn you for doing what I told you to do"...

 

Lets look at some people.

Rand. Lanfear thinks he has betrayed her. She feels so betrayed that she is still furious in WH, well over a year after she went into finnland.

Avi. The women Rand betrayed her for. If you doubt Lanfears capacity for jealousy, just keep in mind that she got furious at Rand for even dreaming about other women.

Moiraine. Pushed Lanfear through the doorway, which obviously caused lanfear quite a lot of unpleasantness.

 

Asmodean. Did exactly what Lanfear told him to do. And you seriously think he would be #1 on Lanfears hitlist? Especially since she has already made sure that the other forsaken thinks Asmo has betrayed them of his own free will. Quite a death sentence. A bit stupid to waste a wish on killing a dead man.

 

I couldn't disagree more. The motive is most certainly not gone, as I say above. And her plan of killing Asmo after he teaches Rand is not negated just because Rand doesn't want to go along with her.

 

Of course the motive is gone. The plan was to have Asmo train Rand until he was strong enough to join Lanfear in her crazy scheme, once there Asmo would stand in the way.

That failed, which means plan B, back on Team dark, defeating Rand and stay as high and mighty as possible with the DO. Again, Rand a far more logical target than a tame forsaken who would be killed on sight by any other forsaken, and an easy target with Rand out of the picture.

 

I'm pretty sure you're just poking fun at me here, but my words are ambiguous so I'll try to be more clear. I do not agree with any of your counter-arguments. However, Robert is right when he says that we will never change each other's minds.

 

Well, if you don't agree, you should have something to back it up with. For example, please explain how Lanfear could leave the finns, kill Asmo, be brought back to the finns, and then be held by the finns until she somehow managed to get free.

 

If it's possible to figure out who the killer is, that question must be answered to make it possible for lanfear to be the one. So please answer. I must have a flawed copy, since I can't recall having read anything about how she could possibly do that little miracle.

[Luckers]

Especially not with the indication in WH that she was held for some time.

[RobertAlexWillis]

It is interesting to me how emotionally attached people get to their theories on this subject. I mean, we're all a little childish from time to time (at least I am), but people can get downright rabid on this subject. Again, I've caught myself doing it.

 

That said ... the convolutions necessary for either Moiraine or Lanfear to do it make either of them extremely unlikely candidates. Especially if we only consider the evidence through the end of The Fires of Heaven. There is barely suspicion that Moiraine will return at that point. No suspicion for Lanfear returning at all ... remember, no one was shown with their soul transmigrated until Lord of Chaos. People are building cases on things learned only in retrospect, but Jordan explicitly stated that it could be deduced from the clues in and before The Fires of Heaven. All the clues that point to Graendal (her concern over Asmodean being al'Thor's teacher, her knowledge of his location, her knowledge of the Royal Palace of Caemlyn, her attachments to Lanfear and Rahvin) are all in The Fires of Heaven, before the murder.

 

I am willing to admit when evidence demonstrates I am wrong ... I have done it on a number of occasions in these very Forums. This time ... sorry folks, it was Graendal.

[cannon]

It is interesting to me how emotionally attached people get to their theories on this subject. I mean, we're all a little childish from time to time (at least I am), but people can get downright rabid on this subject. Again, I've caught myself doing it.

 

Agreed. I find myself getting really upset at how other people don't see the points I'm trying to make. Some of it I think is the inability to really debate effectively over the internet, but mostly I think it's just human nature tending to hold onto your own beliefs more strongly than you should.

 

People are building cases on things learned only in retrospect, but Jordan explicitly stated that it could be deduced from the clues in and before The Fires of Heaven.

 

Personally, my belief in Lanfear was based almost entirely on the literary cues. I never felt that she had been killed when going through the doorway, just that she killed Moiraine.

 

That combined with Asmo's thoughts directly before he died made me think immediately that Lanfear had gotten out and come after Asmo. I fully expected to see her back in Lord of Chaos. When she showed up as Cyndane in PoD, I was surprised, but then altered my own ideas to encompass by previous belief that she had killed him. Mainly by formulating an idea of the wishes, etc.

 

I know it's a stretch, but oh well.

 

All the clues that point to Graendal (her concern over Asmodean being al'Thor's teacher, her knowledge of his location, her knowledge of the Royal Palace of Caemlyn, her attachments to Lanfear and Rahvin) are all in The Fires of Heaven, before the murder.

 

I've just never felt that was a strong enough case for Grandael, but we've already been over this.

 

The other person I thought it might have been for a while was Taim/Demandred. It made total sense with Bashere mentioning he was in the area, and then him showing up at the beginning of LoC. It's the perfect motive as well, get rid of the one person who could give it away.

 

But RJ blew that out of the water when he killed the theory that Taim was Demandred. It just doesn't make as much sense for Taim to be the killer otherwise. It's too bad really.