(Moved from Tinker DG) Religion, what do you think? (no fighting, calling names or bad talk please)

[Loreina]

;D What can I say...I'm a hugger.

[42Bonzo88]

    First of all. Wonderful topic and am very grateful how everyone has been cool in listening to the various responses and not getting upset.

 

    It's kind of a catch .22 when religion is such a great thing and yet you look at how many wars and awful things have been done in the name of religion.

 

    I was brought up LDS and even though I haven't practiced my religion for awhile, I still try to live its teachings for the most part. My personal beliefs are as long as a religion teaches love in your fellow man and to treat others as you would have them treat you, then its a good thing. When you do something nice for others and something nice happens to you back, some call that Karma others feel that its a good thing coming from your beliefs, either way you are trying to help make the world a better place and that is always good in my book.

[Desiree]

*nods* I think if everyone just followed the Golden Rule, a lot of things happening today (gangs, war, religious scabbles, ect) could all be avoided. And it's shocking how not many of today's children don't know what the Golden Rule is! That was one of the first things I was taught in Kindergarten as a way to help us obey the rules better. It's like a lot of us have forgotten it along the road... it's really quite saddening.

[Ferathil]

I actually had a seminary(LDS religious class as an elective) teacher in High school that said something rather interesting, he does not follow "The Golden Rule" He said he has his own "Golden Rule" that actually did sound a lot better. Instead of "Treat others how you wish to be treated." It was "Treat others how THEY wish to be treated." Reason it is interesting and better in a lot of ways, is some days, I just wanna be left the heck alone, now if someone I pass would like someone to talk to, then the Golden Rule would backfire, now if I treat him how THEY want to be treated, I'd stop and talk to them. I know its not meant literal, but I just think its interesting at any rate.

[Desiree]

You know, I've never thought about it that way. Then again, there are some that would take that to their heads - and also there's really no telling what another person wants to be treated like unless they tell you.

[42Bonzo88]

      It sounds like a good concept Ferathil, but like Pol said you would need to assume the person would want good things to happen to them. It is a good philosophy to think of the other people's needs before your own.

[Loreina]

:) Then again, they might wish to be treated like Kings and worshiped. There are many people in the world who think they are sooo much better than the rest of us. So there could be a down side to either one. But if you carry out the spirit and intent of the Golden Rule, I think you can't go wrong. When I'm having a bad day, I don't really want to be left alone. That doesn't mean I want to listen to Little Miss Sunshine tell me how great her life is going, *G* but being ignored would be just as bad. I'd want someone to be kind, commiserate with me and listen to my troubles.

 

[42Bonzo88]

    Loreina, I am glad that you said 'listen'. I am terrible with this but I give advice way too much when someone talks to me. Most of the time they don't want advice but just an understanding listening ear and someone who won't berate them for what's going on, but who will accept them for who they are.

[Loreina]

:) *nods* It is very hard to do, especially since I have a naturally analytic, problem-solving mind. When my children were young it was an asset. Now that they are older, I have found it very hard to refrain from trying to 'fix it and make it better'. My children don't have the same kinds of booboos they had when they were small, and I've had to come to terms with the fact that I often can't (and shouldn't) 'fix' them. It hurts when your child is hurting, and you feel like you ought to do something besides 'just listen'. One day, when I was presented with a problem I clearly could do nothing about, I was forced to admit to my daughter that I couldn't help her. She said, "I know Momma, but it helps to just talk about it." It was an epiphany for me. So now, I just listen and make appropriate, reassuring  responses. And when they're all done, I tell them how much I love them and how proud I am of them. It's the only 'bandage' I have for such things.  ;D  Of course, sometimes I relapse and can't resist suggesting something.  ::)

 

[Desiree]

*nods* listening is something I think the world is lacking. not just listening, but TRULY listening to what people are saying. I think a lot of religious difference could be done away with if people would just listen about another religion and do just that - listen. they don't even have to comment. It's like this:

 

You're used to one food, but try a different variation of it and find out you don't like it. Do you really have to eat all of it? No. (unless your parents make you ofc :P)

 

same with religion. if people could listen without trying to claim their religion is against God/Jesus or who ever they worship and try to stop them from practicing that religion that said person fits into, then a lot of things today would flow smoothly. such as keeping the separation of church and state that is in the Constitution of the United States and keep gay marriage legal and let those who look down on that sort of stuff just shrug it off as "if that's their thing, then let them"

[42Bonzo88]

    You sound like a wonderful mother, Loreina, I have a fourteen yr. old son and an eleven yr. old daughter. They are both autistic and need a lot of patience. Something I am seriously lacking, but I'm trying very hard. They can communicate and are very close to 'normal', but are lacking in their social skills, but we love them very much.

[vainebekonnes]

same with religion. if people could listen without trying to claim their religion is against God/Jesus or who ever they worship and try to stop them from practicing that religion that said person fits into, then a lot of things today would flow smoothly. such as keeping the separation of church and state that is in the Constitution of the United States and keep gay marriage legal and let those who look down on that sort of stuff just shrug it off as "if that's their thing, then let them"

Well the primary problem you will find with some of those issues, such as gay marriage, while partially based in religion is more deeply rooted in tradition.  Marriage, for instance, has long since moved away from it's original purpose, which was the most rudimentary structure for society and propagation of the species.  The idea of marriage as a loving committed relationship between two people is a relatively novel one still, and to be brutally honest, one that hasn't been that well thought out, as current divorce rates show.  Even in ancient Greece and Rome, where homosexuality was common and accepted, marriage was between a man and a woman, because of what marriage was.  When you change the parameters of marriage, as we have done in our society, it becomes very difficult to rebind it into a coherent structure.  Meanwhile, you still have other cultures and segments of our own population that hold to either the whole or parts of the old concept of marriage, as an issue of duty rather than one of love, and one that holds an entirely different purpose than is commonly held.  If I had my way, because of the level of tradition tied to the institution of marriage, the current changes in marriage, and the ability to maintain religious freedom, I would get rid of legal marriage all together.  Instead, we could have legal civil unions as the only legally recognized relationship of that sort, and allow marriages to be the sole purview of society without governmental involvement.  In other words, if you want to get married in your church, more power to you, but it has nothing to do with the government.  If you want your best friend to officiate a marriage ceremony in the park between you and whoever you wish, that's fine as well.  Since it's a societal construct rather than a legal one, you have no issues with forcing anyone to recognize any marriage that they consider wrong.  If three people want to all get married to each other, they can, but no one has to recognize it because the government no more recognizes it than any other marriage.  That's how I would do it at least.  Granted, it would upset both the right and the left, but the normal evidence of a good compromise is that no one leaves happy, since there isn't going to be one where everyone leaves happy.

[42Bonzo88]

    I agree completely Vain, why should you have to be married to get health benefits for your family? I think Basic (not cosmetic stuff unless there is a need) medical attention should be for all! But if you want to get cosmetic surgery and things like that then you would need insurance or to pay more. I have pissed off alot of people because I think no one should have to pay for medicine etc.

 

[gandalf]

First off I am christian, or to be even more specific "Apostolic" I was raised in church and my father happens to be a pastor. Now I was the biggest "pain in the butt" to my dad as I was growing up because then as now, I question everything and now am a christian not because i grew up in it but because I believe in it.

 

It is funny how many christian churches teach against fantasy novels (my dad never did) and anything to do with "magic" but my faith is what draws me to books like WoT, it is the sense of rightness, good Vs. evil and the difficult decisions regular folks must make, and how we grow even when we make the wrong choices so we are better equip to choose good next time.

 

I was never thought to hate any religion, but to separate the people  from the  faith. There are good people following paths I don't agree with, doesn't make them bad, as there are people in faiths that I agree with but at their core they are evil, That doesn't make the belief wrong. I believe that eventually good people with good desires will find God and the evil will get whats coming to them.

 

I will debate theology with anyone like a rabid dog :) but will never hate them because their belief differ from mine, in the end its whats in the heart that counts and that good triumphs over evil as it will at the end of this series  ;D

[Loreina]

Well said gandalf!  :)

 

The thing Jesus seemed most adamant about (imho) was that you be 100% committed to God. He didn't seem to be so much concerned with form or function but with right belief and right action. It's a sad irony, to me anyway, that His churches are so divided over the very things about which He Himself seemed to care so little.

 

 

 

[Desiree]

exactyly, Lor! I don't see why there's so many variations of the Christian religion when it's all about the same thing.

 

I mena, yes there are many variations of wicca and that wicca is a variation of pagan, but that's because it's so diverse. you have TONS of different types of gods and goddesses to worship that there has to be different forms. Christianity it's all just one god saying the same thing...

[vainebekonnes]

The Christian church, like all organized religions, is made up of people.  These people tend to fight amongst themselves and form groups to argue and fight with the other groups.  Hence, the denominations.  Oh yeah, and there is some difference in theology, form, and function, so if you don't quite like the service, organization, or teaching of one denomination, you can simply find one that fits you better.  I think that just about sums up the reasons we have different denominations.  I mean, originally denominations were separated by geography, and then further by the corruption of the church leadership, but then it just spread like wildfire.  Once Luther split on moral grounds, Henry split on personal, and then everything went downhill.  You have people like John Calvin who no one would follow his teachings today if there was better education on the horrible things he did in the name of theological purity.  If someone seems to completely discount everything that Christ did or taught in their lives, why on earth would you follow their teaching as a Christian?  Sorry, got off on a tangent and rambling a bit here.  Basically, sects are going to happen, because people are people.

[Bukama89]

Wow and online religious discussion and no one is upset.... That speaks highly of all of you. 

 

I too am Christian, I fall under the pentecost umbrella. I do not understand how some churches can rant against fantsy novels like WoT or even Harry Potter then 90% think Cinderella or Snow White is ok. You are still dealing with Good vs Evil you have magic... I dont see how they do that. Fansty and fiction have to be allowed to help a child grow and mature, to give an outlet for thoughts and ideas that are origional to them.

 

I am very strong in my faith, that which I believe is true, and can seperate it from fiction of every type.

 

 

[canyousayjump]

I'm a Catholic but my view on faith is a little twisted. I don't attend mass but I do visit the local church when I'm in town. I pray occasionally and never go to confession but wholeheartedly believe in Our Lord.

 

 

[42Bonzo88]

    For canyousayjump, first cool name. I agree with you fully. Your belief is far the most important thing.

 

      For Bukama89, that is something (religions having problems with specific books over others) I have never understood. I always thought 'Magic' was 'magic' wether it was Cinderella's Godmother's "Bibbidi Bobbidi Boo!" or Harry Potter's Firebolt. Both had good people and a villan. What's the difference?

[vainebekonnes]

For Bukama89, that is something (religions having problems with specific books over others) I have never understood. I always thought 'Magic' was 'magic' wether it was Cinderella's Godmother's "Bibbidi Bobbidi Boo!" or Harry Potter's Firebolt. Both had good people and a villan. What's the difference?

 

Well one uses the term "fairy godmother" and the other uses the term "witch."  We all know that when you have a witch, you BURN THEM!!!!  No really, that's about as far as their thinking goes in that regard.

[Loreina]

:) Yes, that's funny, but there's a grain of truth there as well. Some of this really is semantics.

It goes back to the difficulties of translation. So many languages were involved in these sacred writings. Maybe that's what inspired Muslims to forbid the translation of the Koran. It sure cuts down on disputes about what somebody really meant.

I know people who refuse to have anything but the King James version of the Bible in their home, and I've been told that it has some interesting translation errors in it. My project for this summer is to track down some of these. I'm interested in whether they really make a difference, or if people are just nit-picking. One source I'd like to try is Isaac Asimov's book on the Hebrew translation errors.

[Kivam]

I actually had a seminary(LDS religious class as an elective) teacher in High school that said something rather interesting, he does not follow "The Golden Rule" He said he has his own "Golden Rule" that actually did sound a lot better. Instead of "Treat others how you wish to be treated." It was "Treat others how THEY wish to be treated." Reason it is interesting and better in a lot of ways, is some days, I just wanna be left the heck alone, now if someone I pass would like someone to talk to, then the Golden Rule would backfire, now if I treat him how THEY want to be treated, I'd stop and talk to them. I know its not meant literal, but I just think its interesting at any rate.

 

Interestingly enough, that's much more in line with the original hebrew of the verse: v'ahavta l'reyacha kamocha - love your neighbor like yourself.  In other words, look out for others' interests with the same solicitousness as you look out for your own.  That doesn't mean "treat others in ways that would make you happy" - it means "treat others in the ways that are best for them" (which requires knowing a lot more about who they are and what they need and want than simply "well, it's how I'd like it")

 

As an aside, am I really the only religious jew on this place?  Where are the others hiding?

[Kivam]

:) Yes, that's funny, but there's a grain of truth there as well. Some of this really is semantics.

It goes back to the difficulties of translation. So many languages were involved in these sacred writings. Maybe that's what inspired Muslims to forbid the translation of the Koran. It sure cuts down on disputes about what somebody really meant.

I know people who refuse to have anything but the King James version of the Bible in their home, and I've been told that it has some interesting translation errors in it. My project for this summer is to track down some of these. I'm interested in whether they really make a difference, or if people are just nit-picking. One source I'd like to try is Isaac Asimov's book on the Hebrew translation errors.

 

There are some doozies.

 

The most obvious is probably "thou shalt not kill"; the most famous is probably "a virgin shall conceive" or the supposed reference to "Lucifer" in Isaiah

[42Bonzo88]

    Kivam, I am sure there are more people on these boards of the Jewish faith and I think its great that we are getting influences and advice from all faiths from all over the world. I am learning so much from these boards. Not necessarily only religion, but other cultures too. I grew up in a place where there was such a predominant religion, that where it came to other religions, I was so confused. I think I was 10 before I had even met someone of a different religion. Everybody is so kind, and respectful of everyone's beliefs on this thread and you all should be congratulated. It gives me hope for the world. :)