Are the Aelfinn/Eelfinn part of the pattern?

[Majsju]

This distinction is interesting--within the story the phrase 'mirror worlds' is used, but in terms of the question its not so clear--RJ was asked if the Finns came from a perpindicular world or a parallel world--as per Verin's description in The Dragon Reborn. In that description she says that the worlds that run along side--the parallel worlds, by math--are the worlds reached by the Portal Stones. Perpindicular worlds were the only other option she offered, worlds bisecting the pattern.

 

Effectively, RJ stated that the Finns came from a parallel world--a world such as what Verin described as being accessed by the Portal Stones. Now it is clear that both the Finn and the Ogier come from worlds so far diverged from the 'real' world that they cannot be termed mirror worlds, yet to say that mirror worlds and parallel worlds are different seems--unsupported.

 

That may be picking too fine at the apple--im just curious to your thoughts. Myself, i have a pet theory that there are 'core' parallel worlds, worlds that act like the trunk, from which branches stem. Perhaps under your distinction it might be said that those branches are the mirror worlds, the worlds that arn't real, and it is the core worlds that are real. In which case that means the pattern represents entire universes moving distinct of each other. RJ as always scares me. Lol.

 

My thoughts are pretty much based on RJs comments at DragonCon. He does not only point out that the finns are occupying a parallell world, he also states that parallell worlds and mirror worlds are not the same, and the portal stones lead to mirror worlds, not parallell worlds.

 

Which to me (together with what we have seen in the books) sounds like mirror worlds are possible worlds, more or less pale reflections of the "real" world. While parallell worlds are a completely unique existence, what some writers would refer to as other dimensions.

[bubby]

That sounds reasonable Majsju, someone else earlier also said they thought there might be multiple cores, and the cores having branches or mirrors.  Makes sense.  Do each have their own TAR, does TAR and the dream interstice (god I shouldn't use words I dont know) extend to each core world, or does each have an independant TAR?  Do mirror worlds share a single TAR with the core it is attached to?  Is this a way the finn get what they have, by looking from core to TAR to mirror, or from core to TAR to core, by some twisty way?(explained more fully below)

 

Off topic, if the worlds do have a shared piece somewhere among all the different planes we've seen, a place where they all meet, is that a place where Rand must seal the prison, or is the opposite of that meeting the place where he wants to seal the bore?  As in, is the dark one sealed within, or without?

 

1 more question, every person, as far as we know, can reach the dream layer, and TAR itself.  If the human mind can do it unconsciously, and dreamwalkers can do it consciously, then, in the extreme, is it possible to just put your mind in whatever world you want?  If not, what limitations do you all think there are?

 

Yes Mr. Ares, thanks so much, least we know Min and finn don't use the same software.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

This distinction is interesting--within the story the phrase 'mirror worlds' is used, but in terms of the question its not so clear--RJ was asked if the Finns came from a perpindicular world or a parallel world--as per Verin's description in The Dragon Reborn. In that description she says that the worlds that run along side--the parallel worlds, by math--are the worlds reached by the Portal Stones. Perpindicular worlds were the only other option she offered, worlds bisecting the pattern.

 

Effectively, RJ stated that the Finns came from a parallel world--a world such as what Verin described as being accessed by the Portal Stones. Now it is clear that both the Finn and the Ogier come from worlds so far diverged from the 'real' world that they cannot be termed mirror worlds, yet to say that mirror worlds and parallel worlds are different seems--unsupported.

 

That may be picking too fine at the apple--im just curious to your thoughts. Myself, i have a pet theory that there are 'core' parallel worlds, worlds that act like the trunk, from which branches stem. Perhaps under your distinction it might be said that those branches are the mirror worlds, the worlds that arn't real, and it is the core worlds that are real. In which case that means the pattern represents entire universes moving distinct of each other. RJ as always scares me. Lol.

 

My thoughts are pretty much based on RJs comments at DragonCon. He does not only point out that the finns are occupying a parallell world, he also states that parallell worlds and mirror worlds are not the same, and the portal stones lead to mirror worlds, not parallell worlds.

 

Which to me (together with what we have seen in the books) sounds like mirror worlds are possible worlds, more or less pale reflections of the "real" world. While parallell worlds are a completely unique existence, what some writers would refer to as other dimensions.

 

So to recap, there is the Real World - there are Mirror worlds, discussed initially in TGH, accessed through portal stones - there are exclusive Parallel worlds (home of Finn's & Ogier) which are not the same as Mirror worlds per RJ.  In TGH, didn't Loial deduce that the world He, Rand & Hurin were moving through was what the Real World would have been if the Shadow had won the War of Power? Where am I going with this...

 

Is there only 1 Pattern, with one grand fabric covering all these worlds... or are there many?

 

 

[Luckers]

My thoughts are pretty much based on RJs comments at DragonCon. He does not only point out that the finns are occupying a parallell world, he also states that parallell worlds and mirror worlds are not the same, and the portal stones lead to mirror worlds, not parallell worlds.

 

Which to me (together with what we have seen in the books) sounds like mirror worlds are possible worlds, more or less pale reflections of the "real" world. While parallell worlds are a completely unique existence, what some writers would refer to as other dimensions.

 

Ah, the only part i remembered of that was that the finns were from parallel worlds, which i linked to Verin's description--i found the other comment now. I like too that he allows that parallel worlds might have mirror worlds--its more or less what i was working for in my idea.

[Yllek]

I'm doing a re-read right now and unfortunately I don't have the books here with me now.  However, this morning, I was reading TDR, the chapter where Egewene, Nynaever, and Elaine are in Tear and had just obtained rooms in the home of Tear's equivalent of Wisdom.  They were waiting for the lady to come back with the theif catcher...  Egewene notes Elaine reading something and thinks to herself that not even The Travels of Jain Farstrider or the humorous adventures of ____ Eelfinn could keep her attention.  I'd never noticed that before, but there it was.

 

So, there's a book about one of the Eelfinn (female, I think), presumably having adventures in Rand's world.  Adventures which are humorous.  Is there more information or references to this, or similar books, that anyone has come across? 

 

If there's books about them, they are likely part of the pattern.

[Luckers]

Elayne was eading the tales of Aleria Elffin, not Eelfinn.

[Chel Vanin]

Its pretty much already been established that the finns are definitley a part of the pattern, but another instance to support that would be when Mat and Rand were both in Aelfinn realm at the same moment and caused the strange tolling. The Aelfinn started saying "the strain is too great." I think this is because they were both Ta'veren and it somehow put a great strain on the Aelfinn, so if Ta'veren can affect them so strongly, they are clearly a part of the pattern.

 

Anyone got some info on why the tolling happened? I just guessed it was because of the extreme amount of ta'verenness going on and they couldn't handle it but I could be wrong.

[Dunderdan]

My personal impression of the Finns is that theyre like a hard core reality tv-show audience; their main purpose seems to be monitoring whats going on in the real world. It doesnt seem in character for them to do dull everyday duties at home in between memory feeds and whatnots. They seem more interested in "our" realm than their own. Then again, I guess its possible that we only see a small portion of the Finns; a portion that isnt representative for the Finn community at large.

 

Robert Jordan Answers: No, there is no connection between what the Aelfinn do and what Min does.

 

Puts a definite end to that thought hehe. And it makes sense too since none of the Finns do foretellings to they? Perhaps its possible to make this distinction between Min and the Finns; while Min looks ahead, the Finns focus on what is and whats been.

 

However; should Aelfinn ever give an answer about whats going to happen in the future, its effectively a foretelling, which WOULD be similar to what Min does, contradicting RJs answer somewhat.

 

[Matrim DeLaneous]

Puts a definite end to that thought hehe. And it makes sense too since none of the Finns do foretellings to they? Perhaps its possible to make this distinction between Min and the Finns; while Min looks ahead, the Finns focus on what is and whats been.

 

What about:

 

Die & live again

Marry DOTNM's

Give up half the light of the world to save the world

 

 

[Luckers]

Puts a definite end to that thought hehe. And it makes sense too since none of the Finns do foretellings to they? Perhaps its possible to make this distinction between Min and the Finns; while Min looks ahead, the Finns focus on what is and whats been.

 

However; should Aelfinn ever give an answer about whats going to happen in the future, its effectively a foretelling, which WOULD be similar to what Min does, contradicting RJs answer somewhat.

 

The Finn have done so. The difference between them is not in that their abilities cannot do the same things--clearly they are very similar--the distinction is in the simple reality that the two abilities are not the same thing, and do not come from the same cause.

[ROB_88]

i remember that when Mat went through the first door in Tear he spent some time explaining the situation before asking the questions, was that just a waste of time?

[Dunderdan]

Alright then, in that case I dont find the RJ quote to be as clear as it might have seemed.

 

The crucial point isnt wether they use a crystal ball or intestines for the foretellings. They both do foretellings. So in my opinion theres a definite connection between what the Aelfinn do and what Min does. That gives a new perspective on what RJ said. From the quote, I think we can safely assume that Min isnt a Finn nor is she becoming one or using their "technique". My guess is that that is what RJ wanted to stress. But Im not sure Im prepared to read anything else into that quote.

 

Ive got the impression that, in the WoT universe, foretellings are connected to some kind of an ability to read/feel/interpret/weave/etc the pattern. Obviously there are several different abilities to do that. The key though, is that its all about doing foretellings, anticipating what will happen.

 

Id also like to suggest that the stronger the Aelfinn ability to foretell is, the more are they an anomaly in the WoT universe. If you know what will happen in the future, and youre a part of that future, you get unproportional powers. If youre an Aelfinn, and you know about all future major events, youd have a stronger position than the DO even. Want to rule the world? Hijack an Aelfinn. Best way to balance that would be to have some kind of restriction, preventing them from ever leaving their current habitat. I certainly hope there is such a thing. Again, like I said in the original post, I worry that aMoL will reveal too much, or the wrong things, damageing the logic in the story.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Ive got the impression that, in the WoT universe, foretellings are connected to some kind of an ability to read/feel/interpret/weave/etc the pattern. Obviously there are several different abilities to do that.

Stricly speaking, no. Foretelling is one specific way of seeing the future in the series, one that is only doable by channelers with that particular Talent. Min's Viewings are another, wholly spearate way of seeing the future, as is what the Aelfinn do. As is Dreaming. There is no connection between any of these things. They all exist independantly of one another. Not connected.

[Dunderdan]

I wasnt making myself clear, its difficult in philosophical questions like this :)

 

In the WoT universe, the future is dependant on the pattern, which is spun by the wheel of time, which is like a big super computer if Ive understood things correctly. There are no other major forces deciding future events. Its not like the real world. Its not like the Foundation world of Isaac Asimov, where you can calculate future events. No, the WoT world is controlled by the pattern. Its believed for example that it was the pattern that removed Taim and Logain as dragon candidates, when it was settled that Rand was the true dragon reborn. I refuse to believe that there are some other major force in play but the pattern. If you can read the pattern by the use of the power, or by some special connection to the pattern, or by some other means, isnt as important imho.

 

Maybe I shouldnt use the word Foretelling, if thats used to describe a specific way of predicting the future.

 

I can be totally wrong ofcourse, Im no WoT expert. But then again, how would it be possible to predict the future without considering the way of the pattern?

 

[Mr Ares]

IIts believed for example that it was the pattern that removed Taim and Logain as dragon candidates, when it was settled that Rand was the true dragon reborn.

Logain was captured by that point.

If you can read the pattern by the use of the power, or by some special connection to the pattern, or by some other means, isnt as important imho.

There are several wholly separate methods of reading the Pattern. That was RJ's point - that a Foretelling is not a Viewing is not what the Aelfinn do is not a Dream, and so on.