how much can you trust an Aes Sedai promise?

[ROB_88]

despite what some people in WOT think, inability to lie is not the same as inability to break a promise whether i't intentional or not, right?

 

what would happen if an AS made a clear promise (i promise i will do this by that time) and then try to break that promise?

[DhaiMon]

Everything.

 

If pressed.

 

Just make sure that she has no way to escape. *laughs sinisterly*

 

 

Else, if you want to mess around with a channeling woman to your heart's content, just get an Oath Rod that does NOT run under Vista like the Oath Rod.

Likely Aes Sedai are supposed to represent Microsoft. Which is why they're so flaming arrogant.

 

 

Seriously, though, I think you'd strangle such a poor woman if you'd force her to swear to you to kill anyone at your beck and call when she's still bondaged to the three oaths. Or something else that is against the Three Oaths. Seen as much through the eyes of the BA(BS for BullShit rather...need to see one Black sister yet that has a reason for being Black aside from being an egotistical, stupid wench. Really. Even that Waste-peddler from Saldaea has a more original story than all those female clowns with sore teeth. Which is still fun to watch. "Your fault that we failed!" "No yours!" *cries*)-hunters.

 

PS: "Bondaged"...That's the word for it. Not bonded.

 

I know, I bite. xD

[Mr Ares]

despite what some people in WOT think, inability to lie is not the same as inability to break a promise whether i't intentional or not, right?

 

what would happen if an AS made a clear promise (i promise i will do this by that time) and then try to break that promise?

Oath Rods rely, in part, on whether or not the bound person thinks she is breaking the Oath. For example, "speak no word that is not true" doesn't stop them saying untrue things, it stops them saying things they know or believe to be untrue, unless said in such a way as it is clear that they know it to be untrue (for example, sarcasm can be used, or they could repeat a lie they heard that they knew to be a lie if they said it was a lie). So, if an Aes Sedai says she will do something, she must intend to do it. If she says she intends to do something, but has no intention of doing it, then what she says is untrue. It is intention that matters. they might break a promise, but if they never had any intention of keeping it, then what they said at the time was not true, so they would have violated the Oath.

[Yllek]

I agree that it has to do with intent, but also perception. 

 

Example:  In EOTW, Nynaeve asked Moiraine not to tell anyone that she had the ability to channel.  Moiraine agreed (I think she nodded) and then later told the Amrylin about Nynaeve's ability. 

 

At the time that Moiraine made the promise, she didn't intend to violate it.  But later, when a situation she hadn't considered came up, she wasn't bound to the promise.  The oath doesn't say "I will follow though on every promise".

 

In that example, Moiraine's perception comes into play as well.  When Nynaeve asks that she not tell anyone, she may perceved that Nynaeve meant not to tell her friends/traveling companions, not necessarily anyone else.  Therefore, when Moiraine agrees, it's to keep the secret from certain people. 

[mb]

The oath says "speak no word that is untrue", that I think includes promises.

If they speak a promise, they would need to fulfill the promise for the promise to be true.  Intentionally breaking the promise would be the equivalent on saying something they know is false; in which case they violate the oath.

Non-intentionally breaking the promise I think would not violate the oath.

 

To me it does not depend on if they intend to keep the promise, but whether breaking it is intentional or not and on how they speak the promise.

 

The example of Nynaeve & Moiraine, the promise I think was not to not tell of Nynaeve's ability to channel but to not tell of the discussion.

 

[Charlz Fel]

The Aes Sedai who swore fealty to Rand at Dumai's Wells had debates among themselves as to whether oaths sworn under ta'veren influence had to be kept.  (We do not actually see these debates, but unless I am mistaken, both Merana and Verin recall them in their respective PoV scenes.  Verin mentions it to herself when wondering whether it would have been better if the Tower AS had also been caught up by ta'veren, so that she would not have had to Compel them to swear.)  If the Three Oaths made it impossible to violate a promise, these debates would have been pointless.

[MikeRiley]

If they say flat out that they will do something, they have to do it. They still have room to decide how it will be done and when, though, so long as in the end it is done. If they can convince themselves they are still following the oath by not doing it, such as disobeying Rand for his own good, after swearing to obey him, then they don't have to. That's the key thing there, had Merillile (I know I spelled her name wrong) been able to convince herself that another of her oaths was more important than serving the sea folk, she could have wandered off.

 

Of course, you can't really trust any Aes Sedai, knowing some of them are Black Ajah.

[ROB_88]

lets put up a simple example

 

some AS give a promise to person x that she will never under any circumstance go to a special room. that's clear enough.

than lets say that something happends that makes her need to go into that room more than she ever wanted anything before. in this case for personal reasons

 

what would happen? would she go near the room and end up in cramps or would she subconsciously tell herself that she doesn't need to go in there afterall like we see in the Black Tower with the obedience-bond on one AS.

[DhaiMon]

lets put up a simple example

 

some AS give a promise to person x that she will never under any circumstance go to a special room. that's clear enough.

than lets say that something happends that makes her need to go into that room more than she ever wanted anything before. in this case for personal reasons

 

what would happen? would she go near the room and end up in cramps or would she subconsciously tell herself that she doesn't need to go in there afterall like we see in the Black Tower with the obedience-bond on one AS.

Given how hefty a reaction the "simple" lies cause...

...I think the poor woman would indeed die of cramps.

 

At the very, very least it would be worse than painful.

 

 

Very simple, very effective.

 

Literally screams that the thing was not meant for a sisterhood-order.

[Charlz Fel]

I still think that the Oath only applies to promises at the time the promise is made.  The Aes Sedai would have to believe she would fulfill the promise, perhaps feel determination for a sufficiently strong oath, but if circumstances change her intent, she is not bound to fulfill the promise except by her own integrity.  For another example, Saerin promises Elaida to tell no one about her quest for "treason", thinks for a few minutes, and then promptly goes and tells Pevara.  Admittedly, the wording is slightly metaphorical as I recall, but if wording were all that mattered, Moiraine should never have been able to tell anyone that Nyneave could channel, regardless of what she meant when she stated her promise.

 

Concerning the effects of violating an Oath, I think what we have seen is that if an Aes Sedai swore an oath not to enter the room, then attempted to, she would find that her muscles simply would not obey her--physical inability.  The only time cramps/choking come into it is when Oaths conflict (or when conflicting orders are given to someone who has taken an Oath to obey).  We see no such symptoms when Aes Sedai simply have conflicting promises, which is another reason to think that promises are not enforced by the Oath against lying.

 

Subconscious "change of mind" is a thing of Compulsion (which appears to include certain uses of Warder-type bonds).  It does not appear to be associated with keeping Oaths.

[DhaiMon]

Subconscious "change of mind" is a thing of Compulsion (which appears to include certain uses of Warder-type bonds).  It does not appear to be associated with keeping Oaths.

 

One Name:

 

Galina.

 

Galina Casban.

 

Granted, she deserved it.

 

But the effects that "Oath" had seem to be quite much the same as compulsion, to me...Only she does not have the luxury of ignorance. Ignorance is bliss, when you're but a slave.

 

Galina deserved that and more, but it doesn't change the nature of that oath......Also see the Black Ajah hunters uncovering the Green Black among their midst.

 

 

Compulsion? "Oath Rod"?

 

Not much difference.

Except that you clearly got to be a madwoman to take such an "oath"/"honor"/"responsibility" upon your shoulders.

Or terribly misguided.

 

Hope all Aes Sedai are in for a rude awakening there. :D

[Charlz Fel]

Using the Oath Rod to enforce obedience is not any less nasty than using Compulsion.  My point here is that the mechanism in the victim's mind is different.  A Compelled person finds herself wanting to do whatever it is she is commanded, or, at the very least, unable to muster any desire to do otherwise.  (Admittedly, the latter--Toveine's reaction to Logain's commands--seems much more transparent to the victim than the former.)  Someone who has sworn an Oath of obedience finds her arms, tongue, etc. moving against her will, but her mind is left intact (provided she does not simply break under the pressure--but that is psychology rather than One Power intervention).  Someone who has sworn an Oath of truth-telling, and then made a promise, does not appear to exhibit any of these effects if she subsequently changes her mind about keeping the promise.

[Shard]

despite what some people in WOT think, inability to lie is not the same as inability to break a promise whether i't intentional or not, right?

 

what would happen if an AS made a clear promise (i promise i will do this by that time) and then try to break that promise?

 

Considering that one of the Aes Sedai to swear fealty to Rand is actually BA and has logically convinced herself the way to Serve the DO is to make sure Rand survives to face the DO and be killed by the DO. So I wouldn't trust a Aes Sedai as far as I can throw an elephant.

[Mr Ares]

Considering that one of the Aes Sedai to swear fealty to Rand is actually BA and has logically convinced herself the way to Serve the DO is to make sure Rand survives to face the DO and be killed by the DO. So I wouldn't trust a Aes Sedai as far as I can throw an elephant.

She only convinced herself after Verin compelled her. But why wouldn't you trust an Aes Sedai as far as you could throw an elephant? What makes them any less thrustworthy than anyone else? In fact, they are more so, because Black Ajah aside, any promise they made has to be true, they cannot make a promise without the intention of keeping it, even if they later change their mind. A normal person could make a promise with no intention of keeping it.

[DhaiMon]

Using the Oath Rod to enforce obedience is not any less nasty than using Compulsion.  My point here is that the mechanism in the victim's mind is different.  A Compelled person finds herself wanting to do whatever it is she is commanded, or, at the very least, unable to muster any desire to do otherwise.  (Admittedly, the latter--Toveine's reaction to Logain's commands--seems much more transparent to the victim than the former.)  Someone who has sworn an Oath of obedience finds her arms, tongue, etc. moving against her will, but her mind is left intact (provided she does not simply break under the pressure--but that is psychology rather than One Power intervention).  Someone who has sworn an Oath of truth-telling, and then made a promise, does not appear to exhibit any of these effects if she subsequently changes her mind about keeping the promise.

Another name.

 

Beonin.

 

 

She so firmly believed that her betraying Egwene was the right thing(she's definitely not Black Ajah therefore)...

 

...and she chokes on that lie....

 

KoD, some chapter, can't remember where exactly.

 

Another hard evidence that the Oath Rod is the greatest pile of crap ever invented. For the White Tower, anyway.

 

Might be that Mr Betrayer of Hope had its hand there...*sniggers*

 

EDIT: Since that might not be the obvious conclusion to y'all: What this reaction of Beonin tells me is that an Aes Sedai happens to convince herself so very much, so very firmly, that she is able to burst out a lie....she might very well have more than just a board shoved into her throat for that.

Thanks to the Oaths.

[Shard]

Considering that one of the Aes Sedai to swear fealty to Rand is actually BA and has logically convinced herself the way to Serve the DO is to make sure Rand survives to face the DO and be killed by the DO. So I wouldn't trust a Aes Sedai as far as I can throw an elephant.

She only convinced herself after Verin compelled her. But why wouldn't you trust an Aes Sedai as far as you could throw an elephant? What makes them any less thrustworthy than anyone else? In fact, they are more so, because Black Ajah aside, any promise they made has to be true, they cannot make a promise without the intention of keeping it, even if they later change their mind. A normal person could make a promise with no intention of keeping it.

 

My point is that there is a Black Ajah, Elza Penfell, who has sword featly to Rand, Min then saying that very AS will serve him. This Aes Sedai made a promise, that's what I consider swearing featly anyways, this promise however is FALSE as she is really serving the DO. Thus I don't trust her, I am not even sure I trust Verin for that matter. During my most recent re-read I was really startled to see just how many Aes Sedai were really out for themselves, constantly consipiring against each other that I'm puzzled the Tower has survived for so long. Messana doesn't seem to have much difficulty driving the factions of the AS even further apart from each other. If an BA can make a oath of fealty that is false then who knows what other promises can be twisted into their own ends. After all SOMEONE is lying between Moraine and Verin with the whole "Moriane sent me incident". Since I don't think it's Moraine I don't trust Verin.

 

Rand trusted Alvanna and look at what she did, bonding him against his will. Too many Aes Sedai I think don't have the Bigger Picture of wining the Last Battle FOR the Dragon at heart. Too many want to try to twist things to their own ends instead of working toward making sure Rand can win this. Not that I am saying it's bad writing or bad characters just that this isn't a group that gives me warm fuzzy feelings like other characters, namely Loial, does.

[Jethro]

She only convinced herself after Verin compelled her. But why wouldn't you trust an Aes Sedai as far as you could throw an elephant? What makes them any less thrustworthy than anyone else? In fact, they are more so, because Black Ajah aside, any promise they made has to be true, they cannot make a promise without the intention of keeping it, even if they later change their mind. A normal person could make a promise with no intention of keeping it.

 

The other Oaths create loopholes to promises. If an Aes Sedai made a promise, she could actively search for a reason, the smallest reason, that breaking that promise would be for the Towers best interest, and there you have it.

[MikeRiley]

 

Might be that Mr Betrayer of Hope had its hand there...*sniggers*

 

He might have had a hand in convincing the early Aes Sedai after the breaking that those three oaths were needed, but the oath rods existed in the Age of Legends and were used to bind criminals. One of the forsaken says this while speaking in disgust at the primitive people calling themselves Aes Sedai.

[Mr Ares]

Considering that one of the Aes Sedai to swear fealty to Rand is actually BA and has logically convinced herself the way to Serve the DO is to make sure Rand survives to face the DO and be killed by the DO. So I wouldn't trust a Aes Sedai as far as I can throw an elephant.

She only convinced herself after Verin compelled her. But why wouldn't you trust an Aes Sedai as far as you could throw an elephant? What makes them any less thrustworthy than anyone else? In fact, they are more so, because Black Ajah aside, any promise they made has to be true, they cannot make a promise without the intention of keeping it, even if they later change their mind. A normal person could make a promise with no intention of keeping it.

My point is that there is a Black Ajah, Elza Penfell, who has sword featly to Rand, Min then saying that very AS will serve him.

In their own way. They will serve in their own fashion. Which she is. She is doing her level best to make sure Rand gets to TG. Her level best has so far caused her to (unwittingly) kill a Chosen.

After all SOMEONE is lying between Moraine and Verin with the whole "Moriane sent me incident". Since I don't think it's Moraine I don't trust Verin.

That depends entirely on interpretation of Verin's words. It is not impossible for Verin to justify her comments to herself. For example, Moiraine saying that she cannot go with Rand, but wishing someone could, in the presence of Siuan, who couldn't, and Verin, with Verin taking this as Moiraine sending her.

 

Going back to Aes Sedai promises, anything they say is true, or they believe it is. Unless they are BA. If an AS make a promise, she cannot make it with the intention of breaking it. A normal person can. AS may try to escape from it later, or stick to a certain interpretation of the promise which is strictly literal, but ignoring the spirit, but this is something anyone can do. AS are frequently self serving, but so are people. So what makes AS in particular so untrustworthy?

 

She only convinced herself after Verin compelled her. But why wouldn't you trust an Aes Sedai as far as you could throw an elephant? What makes them any less thrustworthy than anyone else? In fact, they are more so, because Black Ajah aside, any promise they made has to be true, they cannot make a promise without the intention of keeping it, even if they later change their mind. A normal person could make a promise with no intention of keeping it.

The other Oaths create loopholes to promises. If an Aes Sedai made a promise, she could actively search for a reason, the smallest reason, that breaking that promise would be for the Towers best interest, and there you have it.

So could anyone. The only difference is that AS, by virtue of being unable to lie, must be telling the truth when they say something. If an AS says I will do X, then when she says that, she must have every intention of doing it, even if she later comes up with a reason why she can't. A normal person could say I will do X, but never have any intention of doing it. Any out the AS has is available to non-AS, but with the addition that they need not be telling the truth at any time, while AS always must be.

[Charlz Fel]

I agree with Mr Ares completely on this one.

 

The other Oaths create loopholes to promises. If an Aes Sedai made a promise, she could actively search for a reason, the smallest reason, that breaking that promise would be for the Towers best interest, and there you have it.

 

First, there is no Oath requiring the Aes Sedai to serve the Tower's best interest.

 

Secondly, anyone is capable of trying to find justification for not keeping a promise, whether it's "something else is more important" or "It would be wrong to carry out this promise" or something else.  Some lawyers do this sort of thing for a living (i.e., argue that someone cannot or should not be held to a contract).

[Shard]

Verin said "Moraine sent me", this is later refuted by Moraine herself. Thus Verin told a lie even if it is some convoluted twisting of logic which I know they do, it is still a LIE since it is not the truth. If this was a court of law Verin would be in contempt for not teling the truth of why she was there in the first place.

 

Again Alanna took Rand against his will, if you find that trustworthy actions very well then.

 

Then we have Eladia who sends her Envoy to Rand with the pretense of peacefully brining him to the tower. True Galina and Katrina are black ajah they would not be there if not for Eladia's duplcity in trying to get Rand there and then having him kidnapped. You can't trust Eladia and we know she isn't BA. You can't trust Alanna and maybe not even Verin and we don't know if they are or are not BA.

[Swigaro]

Then we have Eladia who sends her Envoy to Rand with the pretense of peacefully brining him to the tower. True Galina and Katrina are black ajah they would not be there if not for Eladia's duplcity in trying to get Rand there and then having him kidnapped. You can't trust Eladia and we know she isn't BA. You can't trust Alanna and maybe not even Verin and we don't know if they are or are not BA.

 

 

The Tower Envoy stated that they were there to escort Rand to the Tower peacefully.  They never stated that they would not resort to kidnapping should he decline.  There was no lie here, what so ever.  We can't trust Elaida, but it has nothing to do with the Oaths and it has nothing to do with her non-BA status.  She is an unstable person, unfit for leadership.

 

Verin said "Moraine sent me", this is later refuted by Moraine herself. Thus Verin told a lie even if it is some convoluted twisting of logic which I know they do, it is still a LIE since it is not the truth. If this was a court of law Verin would be in contempt for not teling the truth of why she was there in the first place.

 

All this takes to not be a lie as far as the oaths are conserned is Moraine once ever having sent Verin anywhere, either litterally or by implication.  Is this true by a strict black and white letter of the law viewpoint? No...  Is it a lie as far as the oaths are conserned.  We don't know.  There isn't enough information.  After reading about the mental gymnastics Verin goes through while she is compelling the captured Aes Sedai, I am inclined to believe that Verin is just far more skilled at thinking around the oaths than most other Aes Sedai.

 

 

Again Alanna took Rand against his will, if you find that trustworthy actions very well then.

 

 

Trustworthy?  Certainly not.  Forbidden by the oaths, or Tower Law for that matter.  Not at all.

[Shard]

Well their intention of "peacefully" kidnapping Rand is rather a sham isn't it? They beat and tortured him, and even the non-BA AS were involved with that. They kept Min as hostage to ensure he wouldn't do anything too stupid. That's my point though about not trusting them. They promise to escort him and then turn around an d kidnap him, that's not escorting that's willful imprisonment. You can split hairs all you want but what they did was wrong and just about every Aes Sedai has agreed that was a disaster especially as it resulted in Dumai Wells massacre.

 

What Alanna did may not be against Tower Law however it is considered a Taboo since every Aes Sedai that has seen her since she did it has berated her for it.

 

I just found it very unsettling that in my re-read of the series both Perrin and Mat were getting death threats from Lan and Moraine if she felt they were not needed. Even Suian implied that maybe letting Mat die from the Dagger wouldn't be all that bad an idea. Their motives can be so shady that it is really hard to trust any of them.

[Swigaro]

I don't disagree with you.  What what The Tower Envoy did was despicable, just not in any way against any of the three oaths.  Did they skirt a few lines, you bet.  As far as it being a sham, I can't agree with that.  They never made it clear to Rand that they would not take 'no' for an answer.  He declined their invitation.  I wonder if they would have treated Rand the way they did if he had agreed to go with them under their proposed terms. 

 

As far as Alanna, I don't disagree.  I find it as despicable as the Tower Envoy's behavior; perhaps more so. 

 

The threats from Moraine and Lan were unsetteling indeed.  I did a great job of showing how high the stakes are. 

[Yllek]

What is the possibility of an Aes Sedei releasing herself from the oath against lying, but not being BA?  I mean, any of them (at least in the power circles) could get ahold of the oath rod and release themselves if they had a mind to.  Pevara seems to have little trouble getting ahold of the rod for her BA hunt.  For all we know, Verin or any of the others could have released themselves a long time ago.  It doesn't necessarily mean that they swore oaths to the dark one, it just would mean that they found the ability to lie more appealing than otherwise.