A couple of questions

[Alderthal]

I have a couple of questions, mostly about Nynaeve and the damane. Starting with Nynaeve, could she have some latent talent at foretelling? Her 'weather sense' or 'Listening to the Wind'. It's been associated with not only the weather, but with upcoming events (sensing a storm in Ebou Dar before the Seanchean land there for example). Could this be foretelling or is it some other way of reading the pattern or some other talent long lost?

 

My other question, involves the Seanchean damane. In book 11, I remember Tuon telling Mat that she asked one of her damane to foretell her future (and got the beware the fox 'prophecy'), but I thought foretelling couldn't be forced? That it came out randomly. Could this be a different talent, or are the Seanchean able to force their damanes to foretell stuff?

[sheaff28]

I'm not sure what exactly Nynaeve's talent is but I'm pretty sure its not any kind of foretelling because it's more of a hunch most foretellings come as a random event where the person speaks out, I think it's just something Jordan used as a method of foreshadowing.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

Nynaeve's weather sense seems to indicate impending conflict for people close to her.  When she lived in the Two Rivers the only real problems were weather and other natural things, so her 'sense' went along with other signs she could use to identify things like snow, wolves, or a dry spell.  She is reading ahead in the pattern and getting a 'sense' of disaster if it is likely.  This is closer to dreaming than foretelling, with obvious differences that make it unique.  Perhaps Nynaeve is weakly ta'veren - her sense could be like Mat's luck: something that the Pattern needs for events to play out correctly.  Since she is the only one with this talent, it is impossible to say if it requires the ability to channel or not.  I would guess not.

 

About Tuan's fortune - was the foretelling really forced?  If so, I believe that is an error because the foretelling is not a 'conscious' talent, so to speak.  If not, I would assume that the damane has a different talent, more like a fortune teller.  On the other hand, I suppose someone could have the foretelling so strongly that they could do it at will.

[mb]

'weather sense'/'listening to the wind', those to me have very little to do with Dreaming/Foretelling.  I think it would be closer to Cloud Dancing since someone may need to manipulate the weather to tell what it might do.

 

About the Foretelling, the Encyclopaedia site tells it comes from Winter's Heart Chapter 14.  Knife of Dreams Chapter 36 is the first time the books show it.

 

[berk]

Foretellings aren't totally random. Remember Elaida's foretelling when she was talking to Alviarin? I think they can be "brought on" by exposure to things/people involved in the foretelling. The same might have happened with the damane.

[Alderthal]

I used the one in KoD because it clearly states that Tuon ASKED one of her damane to read her future. In the WH one, it just states that Tuon is upset because a damane read her future and foretold something she disliked.

 

Foretellings aren't totally random. Remember Elaida's foretelling when she was talking to Alviarin? I think they can be "brought on" by exposure to things/people involved in the foretelling. The same might have happened with the damane.

 

But even so, I seem to recall that even Elaida only had a small number of foretellings throughout her entire life. Gitara had a number of them, and we know of at least two (the one asking Tigraine to leave Andor, the other about the Dragon being Reborn). It's repeatedly said Foretelling is a very rare, very random talent, and if it is, then wouldn't Tuon be stupid to ask a damane to read her fortune?

 

Then again, maybe it was a distant ta'varen twist by ol' Mat "I'm not a bloody lord" Cauthon :D

[berk]

I used the one in KoD because it clearly states that Tuon ASKED one of her damane to read her future. In the WH one, it just states that Tuon is upset because a damane read her future and foretold something she disliked.

 

Foretellings aren't totally random. Remember Elaida's foretelling when she was talking to Alviarin? I think they can be "brought on" by exposure to things/people involved in the foretelling. The same might have happened with the damane.

 

But even so, I seem to recall that even Elaida only had a small number of foretellings throughout her entire life. Gitara had a number of them, and we know of at least two (the one asking Tigraine to leave Andor, the other about the Dragon being Reborn). It's repeatedly said Foretelling is a very rare, very random talent, and if it is, then wouldn't Tuon be stupid to ask a damane to read her fortune?

 

Then again, maybe it was a distant ta'varen twist by ol' Mat "I'm not a bloody lord" Cauthon :D

 

 

 

Yeah. But we don't know the conditions of Elaida's other fortellings. Maybe events, thoughts, or conversations can trigger them.  Maybe she thought to herself "this is some fine Andoran tea!" then stood up and had a fortelling about Andor in Tarmon Gai'don. I bet the maid crapped her pants.

[ventage]

Tuon does say that everyone knew damane could tell the future. I think its more to do with the seachan themselves. Lots of diffrent channeling groups came up with diffrent methods. Weaving winds-windfinders. Unknitting weaves-Aiel, Linking, warder Bond-Aes Sedai. Listening to wind-village wisdoms. Damane-Finding ores, skylights, telling the future. I think RJ wanted to show that the power was so vast and so much could be done that not one group would know it all.

[Alderthal]

But then, wouldn't they have used damane to aid their military might? Their generals knowing the future of battles would probably have made them able to rule Randland in oh, 2-3 weeks maybe :D

[Luckers]

RJ directly stated that foretelling has remained a stronger trait in Seanchan than it has hear--apprently because of sul'dam breeding. That being said, who's to say foretelling can't be invoked. Elaida, and presumably Gitara had sporadic unpredictable foretellings, yet Nicola's apparently been able to produce one on demand--people assume she was lying, but one of those 'lies', of an Amyrlin imprisoned, has come true. If one, why not the others?

 

Elaida is weak in the foretelling, and we don't know the specifics of Gitara's abilities, but even she seemed weaker than Nicola. But even if that weakness has nothing to do with it, we know that foretelling takes each woman differently. Nicola not being able to remember her foretellings, for instance.

 

As for the military applications. Foretellings are obscure--consider the number of Foretellings in play around Rand, have they helped him to conquer the shadow in 2 to 3 weeks?

[berk]

I think you guys are looking into this too literally. I find it more likely that the Seanchan have an inaccurate understanding of Foretelling, and Tuon just happened across a damane that ACTUALLY had the talent and triggered one.

[Luckers]

Were you responding to me? Because RJ's comments are specific--I don't see how anyone can take them anything but literally. Foretelling is stronger in Sesnchan.

 

That said, given the Nicola precedent, i see no basis for excluding the idea that some foretellers can't induce fortelling. That Deindre could foretell so many specific foretellings about events nearly four thousand years in the future supports this--strong foretellers seemingly can focus their foretellings, and invoke them intentionally.