Something Troubling about KoD...

[NorrinRadd]

Agreed, but 1 point, I didn't mean nor do I mean to imply the DO needs Balefire to remake the World or to do anything, The Forsaken I imply will use Balefire to weaken the seals & When i Quoted earlier it was from the Prologue of "Lord Of Choaos", Where the DO Asks Demandred to Unleash the Balefire in his Service.

[Featherless Hawkwing]

That's the point, see. Demandred never said he would do so. He said he would do as he was commanded, and the DO did not command him, he asked him if Demandred would unleash the balefire. Demandred just said he would do as he was ordered. But he was not ordered.

[Luckers]

Even so Demandred agreement is not indicitive of the Forsaken intending to use balefire to destroy creation. In small usages and under controlled circumstances a Forsaken may be willing to, but the rest of it?

 

Evidence offered by the others prove this. Moreover the Dark One doesn't want balefire used because its effects are unpredictable--even beyond his power to stop or control.

 

And Jelly does have a point. Your delivery was condescending and dismissive of another member of this board. It seems it wasn't intentional, but still... try to play nice.

[NorrinRadd]

Its obvious from the Books That the Forsaken don't want Balefire used and why they wouldn't. Noone knows what the Dark One wants,please let's quit implying that we do.It seems we have different opinions on Balefire being Used & I have no problem with that,but I have a very hard time with RJ introducing Balefire into the series like he did & it never being used again, but thats me & I think it will be used again(My Opinion). Cwestervelt,no disrespect was intended to you thru my Posts & i notice you haven't once implied that it was, but others can't seem to let that go, So I'm reiterating that point :D

[Llewin]

I cant remember the quote but I seem to remember an Ishamael/Moridin POV where he acknowledges his understanding that the Dark One's ultimate goal is the destruction of the Universe rather than it being re-created in his image, and that Balefire would not go against that goal, I also seem to remember him thinking he understood and agreed with the goal...

 

Of course we all know Ishy is friggin insane :)

[Leafburner]

I think this is a fairly moot point. We're talking about the Foresaken here. They are hardly to be trusted when giving "their word." There is absolutely no reason to think that they are all 100% loyal to anyone, even the Dark One.

 

Demandred said what he did because he was chatting with the Dark One. Nothing more. When push comes to shove and the act of using balefire may seem very risky for him, do you think he'll still do it because he was told to? I don't think so. Just look at the cleansing of Saidin. They were hiding behind trees and freaking out, not one of them prepared to do anything in service of their "Great Lord."

 

Remember the rule, take the word of the Foresaken at face value because you won't be staring them in the face when they stab you in the back!

[NorrinRadd]

In the 1st book,,"The Eye of The World", in Chapter 42(Remembrance of Dreams),The Heroes realize that the DO plans to Kill Time Itself,Balefire causes threads to be burned from the Pattern and Time Unravels thru this.

[NorrinRadd]

Moridin will do whatever the GreatLord Commands in my opinion.The other Forsaken may not But he will.As they say,"Time will Tell"

[Guest cwestervelt]

Time and the Pattern are not the same thing. Time doesn't unravel when Balefire burns a Thread out of the Pattern. It is the Pattern itself, reality if you prefer, that unravels. If the Pattern is destroyed, there is nothing left. The Dark One wouldn't have anything left to rule.

[NorrinRadd]

As the Antithesis of The Creator wouldn't the unmaking of The Creator's Universe grant Shai'Tan the opportunity to Remake everything in His own Image. I'm thinking outside the proverbial box & not limiting myself by reality since this is a Fantasy series. :D

[havoc110]

I think you are blowing this moratorium on balefire way out of proportion.

 

You know Dem is going to use it, as the DO has requested.

 

Moggy had no qualms about it.

 

Heck, even the Darkfriends have no problems using it. (BTW, the black rod would make a handy murder weapon).

 

Let's face it, it is not very realistic for it to be acceptable to balefire your friends and lovers back from the dead, but somehow find it somehow prohibited when you would in fact like to have your hand back.

 

I mean, Moiraine can toast Be'lal, but somehow you would think that it's wrong/lame/contrary to some agreement for Rand to fry Semi, especially after Semi fried his hand?

 

Think if it was your hand... you might just want it back, and the heck with what you told Cadsuane.

[Trib4l]

Perhaps Dem is going to be the one that causes the "Twice dawns the day" passage to be fulfilled...

[Guest cwestervelt]

Uh... Just how is Balefire going to cause the day to dawn twice? Who is he going to Balefire that would make the world turn backwards?

 

I sounds like you are taking to literal of an interpretation of Prophesy. Personally, I lean more to an event occurring that makes it appear to have 2 dawns somewhere. Not a literal 2 dawns. Say, something like a giant crystal sphere that is still half obscured by an artificial horizen glowing like the sun. From the description we were given of the Chodal Kal on Tremalking when it was used, given the right time of day, and the right vantage point, the one in Caihrien could give the illusion of day dawning.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Luckers:

Actually it might have been interesting to see a character intentionally use balefire with the intended result of reversing something that had been done.

 

NorrinRadd:

You'll see this exact strategy used in AMOL^^

 

cwestervelt:

I would doubt that very much. The good guys want to defeat the Dark One's forces and keep him sealed. The bad guys want to free the Dark One, break the cycle of Time and rule the world.

 

Neither side wants to destroy the Pattern because if they do that, they both lose. Permanently.

 

I'm not sure what the problem is, but no one seems to understand the context of my statement that started this Balefire discussion. I was stating that I doubted the previous post in which it was said we would see a particular strategy used in A Memory of Light. The potential consequences would be worse than the event that occurred. I wasn't stating Balefire wasn't going to be used at all.

 

Edit: Havoc, I disagree on the Black Rod being a handy murder weapon. We have seen attempts to use it twice, and both times the Aes Sedai couldn't control where the Balefire went. We've seen good reason as to why it was marked as "Dangerous and almost impossible to control" on the list of stolen Ter'angreal.

[Kepen heal]

On the hole balefireing thing, isnt the DO's prision consealed in the pattern. That is where the Chosen had found him in the first place. In the glass in Rhuidean Rand heard one of the Forsaken say that she had found a new way of channeling in the pattern.

 

So to the point, if the DO fries the pattern right now, wont he get fried him self????

So also that means that he wouldnt want the pattern destroyed just time, ther for stating that time and the pattern are two seperate things.

 

Also just one thing on the Rand dieing on shayol goul, dont think he will really die. No where in the prophecy does it state that he will die, just that his blood will be shed on the slopes of shayol goul. So the old wound will probably break open, spilling blood on the slopes. Plus maybe thats how rand defeats the DO. Sacraficing him self like he did with.............(Cant remember first Chosen killed in the sky sorry) But there sheating the sword in himself to defeat the DO.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I believe the Dark One's prison is actually outside of Time and the Pattern. That is why, when properly sealed, he can't touch anything.

 

During the trip the the rings, there isn't any mention of what the power is, just that it is a new source.

Mierin had said today was the day. She said she had found a new source for the One Power. Female Aes Sedai and male would be able to tap the same source, not separate halves. What men and women could do united would be even greater now that there would be no differences. And today she and Beidomon would tap it for the first time - the last time men and women would work together wielding a different Power. Today.

The Shadow Rising

[havoc110]

CW: you need to look again at "To Keep the Bargain":

 

Birgitte is looking thru a spyglass at the Darkfriends at a mile off. Guybon is still near enough that his orders can be heard, and the balefire is able to hit the advancing ranks. It appears pretty accurate to me.

 

I submit that if the rod is that effective at "artillery" distance, then it seems reasonable to think that it would be quite effective at point blank range.

 

The first instance (mentioned in TSR ch 38) sounds like that crazy BA used it below decks on a ship.

(using the point-click-nuke example from KoD by comparison) However, going back to that passage, it does however, specifically mention that the rod could be used to destroy a Forsaken.

 

I'm not saying it happened that way, just that it COULD be a use for the black fluted rod.

 

But, this item was taken by the BA, the BA knew what it did, and the BA thought it might protect them from the Forsaken.

All of this supported by the text.

 

The surgeon general's warning, added by Verin is your only valid point. However, Verin's motives have not been completely identified. Egwene was suspicious of her at the time the list was delivered, not to mention the sketchy passage at the end of TDR ch.21.

 

No surprise from you CW, being combative for no reason. Ah, but of course there could be no way the black rod was used, because, of course, Moiraine killed Asmo.

 

Again, just a possibility, not a theory, and I certainly have put forth my share of bad theories.

 

This one is very far fetched: but Asne and Co. are following Moggy at the time (since FoH ch 34). Moggy knows (since Nyn brought her) that Rand (therefore Asmo) is in Camelyn.

 

Even though I don't believe that this is what happened, it is still well within the realm of possibility. And less loony that a lot of other theories.

[Guest cwestervelt]

cwestervelt:

Havoc, I disagree on the Black Rod being a handy murder weapon. We have seen attempts to use it twice, and both times the Aes Sedai couldn't control where the Balefire went. We've seen good reason as to why it was marked as "Dangerous and almost impossible to control" on the list of stolen Ter'angreal.

 

havoc:

No surprise from you CW, being combative for no reason. Ah, but of course there could be no way the black rod was used, because, of course, Moiraine killed Asmo.

 

Who's the one being combative? I didn't think disagreeing with someone was being combative. However, I do take offense at people with ground less theories claiming that anyone who disagrees with them and can provide evidence why the theory is wrong are being combative.

 

Anyway, since you brought it up, and you are already accusing me of being combative, I might as well be.

 

There isn't any possible way the Rod could have been used as a murder weapon to kill Asmodean. Whether Moiraine had anything to do with Asmodean's death, doesn't even come into the picture.

 

We have three places that describe the Rod being used. Two of them, the expiriment in the boat that you mentioned, and then later in Tanchico are before Asmodean was murdered.

 

The Shadow Rising Chapter 54, "Into the Palace"

...

A leg-thick bar of white shot from through were she had been standing, as if the air had been turned to molten metal, slicing all the way across the exhibition hall; where it struck, pieces simply vanished out of columns, priceless artifacts ceased to exist.

...

 

As soon as the balefire disappeared, she raised herself up enough to peer back across the hall, through the rent sawed along the chamber wall. Beside the fountain, Jeaine Caide was swaying, one had to her head, the black rod almost falling from the other. But before Nynaeve could strike at her, she had clutched the fluted rod again; balefire burst from its end, destroying everything in its path through the chamber.

 

That is a description of something that is under control? There is no simple on/off switch that lets you get minor shot of Balefire. Jeaine Caide activated it and got a stream of Balefire sweaping all over the place before it finally stopped.

 

I have also read "To Keep the Bargain" and, though I hesitate to say it, apparently, I have read it better than you did.

 

Knife of DreamsChapter 32: To Keep the Bargain

"This," Birgige said, gesturing to the scene in front of them. Guybon had begun to trot, pulling the others with him, the three ranks holding steady in their advance, others coming as hard as they could to join them. Abruptly a leg-thick bar of what appeared to be liquid white fire shot out from one of the womna beside the wagon. IT quite literally carved a gap fifteen paces wide in the lines. For a heartbeat, shimmering flecks floated in the air, the shapes of men and horses struck, and then were consumed. The bar suddenly jerked up into the air, higher and higher, then winked out leaving dim purple lines across Birgitte's vision. Balefiew, burning men out of the Pattern so that they were dead before it struck them. She swung the looking glass up to her eye long enough to spot the woman holding a slim black rod that appeared to be perhaps a pace long.

 

...

 

"This?" Chanelle said incredulously. "I have no desire to watch men die." Another bar of balefire slised a breach of nearly twenty paces in the charging ranks before knifing down into the ground, cutting a trench halfway back to the wagon before it vanished. There were a good many dead, though not as many as it seemed there should be. Birgitte had seen the same in battles during the Trolloc Wars where the Power was used. For every man who lay still, two or three were staggering to their feet or trying to stem the flow of blood. For every horse stiff-legged in death, two more stood on wobbly legs. The hail fo fire and lightning continued unabated.

 

The rod was used 2 times in that battle. The first time it was aimed somewhere up in the air before the Aes Sedai could stop the Balefire. The second time it was just cutting through the ground back towards the person using it before it stopped. The initial shot may have been directed where it was wanted but you still don't have a description of controlled use. Rather, you have a description of something that is "dangerous and almost impossible to control".

[havoc110]

Dude, you are forgetting that Asne is almost A MILE AWAY. At that distance, a small motion of the rod will make BIG variances in the path of the balefire.

Big variances like the ones you we so kind to highlight in bold face.

 

Again, she manages to hit the line BOTH TIMES. And being really really conservative, from at least 1000 yards (but probably closer to 1500 edit:not 2000)

 

If someone in the lines advancing towards the wagons could have read Verin's comment about impossible to control, I don't think he or she would agree.

 

Whatever you say, and no matter how bold you might type it, the chances of the rod being Asmo's murder weapon, however small they might be, are still greater than zero.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Dude, you are forgetting that Asne is almost A MILE AWAY. At that distance, a small motion of the rod will make BIG variances in the path of the balefire.

Big variances like the ones you we so kind to highlight in bold face.

 

Dude nothing. I am forgetting nothing. Being able to hit a target doesn't mean that you are in control. Please read the description, and actually take a minute to think about you just read. The big variances that I was so kind to highlight in bold face can not be explained by simple distance if something is supposedly under control.

 

"The bar suddenly jerked up into the air, higher and higher, then winked out"

 

It was a sudden jerk. How can you read that as anything deliberate or controlled. It kept going higher and higher. That isn't just a little off target that isn't even close to the target. If she was in control, why didn't she bring it back on target rather than letting it go way up in the air? Furthermore, if she was in control, why did she stop the Balefire was pointing at nothing and doing her not good?

 

"cutting a trench halfway back to the wagon before it vanished"

 

Using your distances, she made a half mile long trench. Trenches are a good defensive strategy when they are perpendicular to the charge. The one she created ran from the attacking line half way back to her though. It didn't provide a barrier to any of the soldiers with Birgitte. Of course, her intention wasn't to create a useless half mile long trench. That's just what ended up happening. Once again, if she was in control, whe didn't she bring it back on target, or at least terminate the Balefire sooner than she did?

 

You can argue that the test on the boat was simple stupidity for having used it in a boat in the first place, but that disregards almost everything else that we are told concerning the Rods use. That includes the fact we were told concerning that event.

 

The Shadow Rising Chapter 38, Hidden Faces.

Jeanie gave a sharp sniff. "If any of us could control it. Or have you forgotten that the one test we dared nearly killed me? And burned a hole through both sides of the ship before I could stop it? Fine good it would have done us to drown before reaching Tanchico."

 

We don't know that she didn't manage to hit her target that time. She obviously wasn't able to keep it on if the beam went through both sides of the boat. Once again, it is obvious that she could not stop it once easily. In her present company, she had no reason to have been lying about the lack of ability for control.

 

The rod used to create 5 streams of Balefire by the end of Knife of Dreams. In each case, the person using it was not able to keep it on target, nor were they able to stop it with any form of ease.

 

Apparently, simply hitting the initial target is enough to consider it controlled in your definition, but, isn't enough for me. To me, being able to consider something under control requires making it do what you want, when you want it to, and only what you indended to do. If you can't keep it on your target, and you can't stop it when you want to, then you aren't able to do either and you do not have control. Certainly not the control required for a murder weapon, especially for the concealed weapon you allusion to Asmodean requires.

[havoc110]

Clearly you cannot grasp the concept of the distance mentioned in the text. Especially when you consider the target is 6 feet tall, 10-12 feet tall for those that are mounted.

 

It is also clear, to me at least, that Asne is more confident and proficient with the black rod than is Jeaine. My theory is that the difference lies in the flows each user would use for activation, and that if the correct flow/power level combination were known, it would be completely controllable.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Clearly you cannot grasp the concept of the distance mentioned in the text. Especially when you consider the target is 6 feet tall, 10-12 feet tall for those that are mounted.

 

Rather than continued attempts at bearly vieled personal attack at what you percieve as my lack of intelligence, maybe you should actually try to validate your claim that Asne was showing control of the Rod in a way that explains why Jordan clearly depicted otherwise.

 

You have a "theory" that Asne is more confident and proficient. Where is the evidence to support that. It doesn't come from the descriptions we see in the books.

 

We don't have anything to indicate that Jeaine never hit her intended target that first time on the boat. What we do know is that once started, she couldn't stop it. When she used the Rod against Nynaeve, had Nynaeve not moved, she would have hit her. That doesn't mean she was in control. Look at the rest of those descriptions, the damage all over the rest of the building. Once again, an inability to stop it.

 

When we see Asne use it, sure she hit the charging line. There were 1000s of men in that charge, so it wasn't that hard of a feat to hit the target. That doesn't mean she had control. Just read the words that Jordan used to describe what happenned. He's talking about it jerking suddenly and going wildly off target. He spent almost as much time describing the wild progress of the Balefire through the sky and into the ground as he did describing it hitting the intended target. If he wasn't trying to give a picture of something out of control, why else would he bother doing that.

 

I understand perfectly well the concept of distance. How far away she was has nothing to do with how long it takes her to stop the Rod from producing balefire once it goes off target. She had a clear view of the people coming towards her or she couldn't have used the Rod. She knew when it was no longer having the desired affect.

[havoc110]

Well, I have been thinking along the same line. It is my opinion that RJ's depiction of the use of the rod in KoD does not equate with "impossible to control".

 

How clear a view can one really have at 1/2 a mile away, much less the full mile described in the text?

 

Reread the passage that says Birgitte thinks that Asne is aiming directly at Guybon. That also does not equate with "impossible to control". Again this at almost a mile out. As good as a modern sniper rifle with telescoping sighting (according to what I have read about them, as I am not a sniper). If you play golf, imagine a typical par 5. Well, Guybon is 3 times that distance away from Asne. I believe this could be an RJ disconnect. Either that or the BA, especially Asne, have gained increase proficiency with the rod. What, is that too far fetched somehow? Many characters have increased skill sets from where they were in TSR, including better understanding of ter'angreal.

 

And I do have evidence from the text regarding Asne's use of the rod vs. Jeaine's. Clearly Asne is using it with some effectiveness in KoD. Even from the beginning it is Asne who suggests the rod's use, only to have Jeaine balk because of her failures, which appear in the text, and both of us have documented.

 

Your passage contains what I take as evidence to support my claim.

 

Jeaine Caide was swaying, one had to her head, the black rod almost falling from the other.

 

Why is Jeaine dizzy? Perhaps because she doesn't know how to use the rod correctly. (Again a theory, but a plausible one) Note that Asne does not exhibit these signs in KoD.

 

All along Asne presents as being confortable with its use. Jeaine does not. Asne risks confrontation with Moggy by recovering the rod herself in WH, and makes a note of a contingency plan in which she might need to use the rod in a future attempt to capture Elayne and Nynaeve. (WH ch 10)

 

Add also the fact that it is not clear that the "impossible to control" label is something directly transcribed from Corianin Nedeal's notes, or added by Verin herself.

 

All in all, the rod seems pretty controllable to me, despite what the surgeon general's warning says.

[Luckers]

Its obvious from the Books That the Forsaken don't want Balefire used and why they wouldn't. Noone knows what the Dark One wants' date='please let's quit implying that we do.[/quote']

 

We do though. We have a force which effects reality in a way that no one can predict--not even the Dark One. Specifically the effects of Balefire are beyond the Dark Ones control. So whilst the Dark One may be willing to have it used in specific situations, we CAN suggest that the Dark One wouldn't want it used to the level where it would unravel the Pattern because it would grant him nothing... He wouldn't win through that path--there would be nothing for him to control. Its entirely possible that he could even be hurt also since even he is not beyond the effects of balefire.

[NorrinRadd]

Uncontrolled use of Balefire causes reality to unravel,The Creator's reality inwhich the DarkOne is a Prisoner outside of Time, why wouldn't he want that Reality to be Destroyed? And why did He ask Demandred if he(Demandred) was willing to use the Balefire in His service regardless of how the Forsaken & everyone else feel about using it? I'm also very curious what you think the DarkOne's intentions are?