Something Troubling about KoD...

[Jinjurluv]

Ok, this has been bothering me ever since I read the scene in KoD where Rand looses his hand. I know its not a major thing in the grand scheme of things and that RJ must have had a reason for doing it, but...Why couldn't Rand or Logain have used balefire on Semirhage (sp?) to get Rand's hand back? If using balefire on Rahvin (I think?) brought Mat and the others back to life, couldn't it bring Rand's hand back? I know Cadsuane forbade him to ever use it again and that they prolly want to question Semirhage, but things like that have never stopped Rand before. I have absolutely no idea why it bothers me so much that Rand lost his hand, prolly something to do w/ his being a swordmaster, but it does and I don't like that this happened at all. It really just seems like a senseless loss at this point.

[Gurney]

The reason Rand lost his hand is because he is based in part on Tyr, who was portrayed having only one hand.

 

The reason I don't think he or Logain balefired Semirhage back to the AoL is because of Rand's refusal to kill women. Logain I don't think even knows how to weave balefire (I may be wrong on that, but I don't think i've seen him use it.)

[Guest cwestervelt]

Rand was also out of the fight from the point where he blocked Semirhage's fireball with his hand. He never regained his feet until it was all over.

[Jinjurluv]

Who is Tyr that Rand is based on?

 

In whichever book it was that Rand brought Mat, etc. back to life, he did it a period of time after those people had been killed. The explanation was: as the Forsaken was burned out of the Pattern, things he had done were undone. The more power used in the balefire, the further back the person was burned out of the Pattern.

 

So, theoretically even if it was done minutes after he had been healed, Rand should have been able to put enough power into it to get his hand back.

 

Now, the explanation that he doesn't want to kill women I can buy. I really don't understand this issue he and Mat have. Chivalry has its place, but there are exceptions to every rule. And a reasonable exception in my book would be a "my life or yours" situation. Especially w/ one of the Forsaken.

[Featherless Hawkwing]

Semirhage is a valuable asset. She has within her all the knowledge of the Age of Legends, and Nynaeve could use some of that, especially coming from the greatest Healer that ever lived. You say it's a useless loss? Well, Semirhage would be an even more useless loss. What is the importance of the hand of a man with a death sentence hanging over his head? Besides, killing Semirhage is unnecessary. Balefire to save a hand? Please. And if he can channel a sword, he might unconsciously channel a fiery hand on, too. Killing Semirhage would get Rand's hand back. Not killing her would mean a wealth of knowledge that may be direly needed (perhaps for Rand's surviving TG, even) and information of Mesaana and Demandred's respective plans. And that would be awesome, besides pretty damn useful.

 

And it would add substance to the lamest Forsaken encounter of the series.

[Jinjurluv]

And it would add substance to the lamest Forsaken encounter of the series.

 

Ok, so I completely agree w/ you on that remark.

 

I really don't see Semirhage being the font on knowledge that Moghedien was. She seems to be made of sterner stuff. Nynaeve might be able to weasel out some healing info, but she seems to be doing a darn good job of that on her own. I also don't think Semirhage would betray any plans short of being Compelled (which is a possibility).

 

I really don't think Rand is going to die...he will literally, but I think it will be more symbolic than actual. Like those people whose hearts stop, but they're shocked back to life again. I also have a tiny suspicion that the complete death will be that of Lews Therin in his head.

 

But I guess only RJ knows for sure...

 

BTW, I've read on other threads that the next book will be the last of the series. Where are people reading this? I've been looking all over for that type of info! The only info I've found says that RJ plans to write 30+ more books (though not necessarily all for the WoT series).

[Guest Majsju]

BTW' date=' I've read on other threads that the next book will be the last of the series. Where are people reading this? I've been looking all over for that type of info! The only info I've found says that RJ plans to write 30+ more books (though not necessarily all for the WoT series).[/quote']

 

He's said it on several occasions. In his blog, at D*Con last year...

 

And the 30+ books...At the most 5 of those will be connected to WOT, if you include AMOL. Then at least 6 in Infinity, and Bob knows what other ideas dwells in the mind of RJ.

[Gurney]

Who is Tyr that Rand is based on?

Tyr is a god in Norse mythology. You can information about it here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyr

[Jinjurluv]

Hmmm...very interesting. Thanks for the link!

[merlinspetrock]

I think Cadsuane would be pretty ticked off if Rand balefired Semhirage just to get his hand back. Seeing how the last time he used it in her presence she gave him what for, and that was in defense of all of their lives not just for his own pleasure.

[Luckers]

You see i just dont think rand cared enough about the loss of his hand to lose one of the Forsaken over it.. moreover Rand has displayed recently a hesitation in using balefire.

[Guest cwestervelt]

You see i just dont think rand cared enough about the loss of his hand to lose one of the Forsaken over it.. moreover Rand has displayed recently a hesitation in using balefire.

 

Min even commented on that lack of caring.

 

"You must be in shock," Nynaeve said slowly. "You've just suffered a grievous injury, Rand. Maybe you better lie down. Lord Davram, have one your men bring a saddle to put his feet up."

 

"He's not in shock," Min said sadly. The bond was full of sadness. She had taken hold of his arm as if to hold him up again. "He has lost a hand, but there's nothing to do about it, so he's left it behind already."

Knife of Dreams Page 591

[Leafburner]

I think having Rand balefire Semi to get his hand back would have been the lamest thing RJ could have done. I loved it. LOVED IT! I had to reread the sentence over again to make sure I had read it correctly.

 

Like you said Jinjurluv, the balefiring of Foresaken to undo what they'd done has been done in TFoH. To rehash that plot device would have been too old hat.

 

And let's not forget that Rand couldn't get it together until Semi was already captured. To BF her at that point would not have been an act of self defence or a counter attack, it would have been an act of cold blooded murder. And Rand would have had to do it in front of everyone. Min, Cadsuane, Nyneave, Logain, etc. That's what separates the good guys from the Foresaken. They are not merciless killers.

[Llewin]

Additionally... You said that Rand isnt beyond breaking his word, but do we know of even one occasion where he actually went directly against a promise given, by choice?

 

He told Cadsuane he wont use it, so far as I'm concerned that makes it locked in stone...

[algspkr]

Additionally... You said that Rand isnt beyond breaking his word' date=' but do we know of even one occasion where he actually went directly against a promise given, by choice?

 

He told Cadsuane he wont use it, so far as I'm concerned that makes it locked in stone...[/quote']

When did he say that?

[Luckers]

Actually it might have been interesting to see a character intentionally use balefire with the intended result of reversing something that had been done.

[NorrinRadd]

You'll see this exact strategy used in AMOL^^

[Guest cwestervelt]

I would doubt that very much. The good guys want to defeat the Dark One's forces and keep him sealed. The bad guys want to free the Dark One, break the cycle of Time and rule the world.

 

Neither side wants to destroy the Pattern because if they do that, they both lose. Permanently.

[NorrinRadd]

"Will you Unleash the Balefire in my Service Demandred?", "Yes, Great Lord......", The Wheel will be broken & Time will stop, hence, "Twice Dawns the Day......,", in short, Balefire will be used whether you doubt it or not.

[Guest cwestervelt]

You think so?

 

Explain this then. During the War of Power, both sides stopped using it. They didn't do this by consensus but by individual choice. The Forsaken want a world left over for them to rule.

 

As you command, Great Lord, so shall I obey.

 

That is not the same as saying "Yes". Especially considering how obedience to orders not to kill Rand hasn't prevented the Forsaken from trying if the thought they could get away with it.

 

During the prologue to Lord of Chaos the Dark One does not order Demandred to use Balefire. Demandred appears to agree, if the Dark One should order him to. That is not the same as actually saying he will. He's not about to say straight out while in Shayol Ghul that he is going to defy an order from the Dark One.

[NorrinRadd]

You realize that your point is based on your interpretation of the Books, correct? When Balefire is used remember i told you so first.

[NorrinRadd]

BTW, the only way to break the Cycle of Time & The Wheel is Balefire, go reread the Books & you'll realize that as well.

[Jellybelly]

Oh, come on.

 

You will not get anywhere with this arguing technique. I find it really grating when you present your personal opinions as facts without presenting evidence from the books, while cutting down people who actually do.

 

Cwesterveldt has the right of it. Both sides ceased using Balefire in the Age of Legends, because they realised what it would do to reality. The books tell us that the Forsaken did not want to destroy the universe - they wanted something left to rule. Prolonged and massive use of Balefire would eventually rip reality apart. There would be nothing left.

 

As to your supposition that only Balefire can break the Wheel, I have only one thing to say. You are wrong. We are told countless times through the books that the Dark One intends to do these things himself once sufficently freed. Where Balefire would destroy reality itself, the Dark One would mold it in his image. He would set the rules himself, and he has the power to do it. He does not rely on his servants using Balefire.

[NorrinRadd]

First & foremost we were never arguing, secondly we haven't said anything in either of our posts that could be referred to as cutdowns & most importantly we both have used quotes from the Books. And you need the weakening of Reality for the DO to be able to Break free & remake the World(Balefire), This isn't about what the Forsaken want its about what the DO wants, wouldn't you agree?

[Jellybelly]

Well, argumentative technique then. The way in which you get your points across is what I referred to. Anyway, I did not see you provide any evidence to support your claim that Balefire is the only thing that can accomplish the Dark One's needs OR that the Forsaken will suddenly start using it when we know they would not risk it three thousand years ago.

 

When I said "cutdowns", I did not refer to the use of ad hominem, which, you are right, has been nonexistent. The intended meaning was more one where you cut down his arguments with statements of the "you just wait and see kind". You tried to neutralize his argument by saying that "this is your interpretation".

 

I hope that cleared things up. I was not accusing you of breaching forum rules or anything of that kind.

 

To continue the discussion, you seem to be unclear on one thing. The Dark One does not need Balefire to remake the world. Use of balefire of that kind would destroy the universe. We know that because it is stated in the books on several occasions and because RJ has said so himself. Although we may not know whether the Dark One intends to keep his promises to his disciples, we know that once he breaks free, he does not need Balefire to remake the world. He is like a god, he will do it by his own power and capability.

 

Additionally, you do not "need the weakening of reality for the Dark One to break free". The weakening of reality is a result of the strain the Dark One is putting on the Pattern in the process of breaking free. It is an effect, not a prerequisite.