Who is Mesaana?

[Paradoxic]

Whoever she is, she'd have stayed in the tower during the coup. This is why I'd rule out any one of the Hall's ferrets.

 

I do believe she has taken the place of a current sister... there really isn't anything special preventing it. Sisters do not pry into the affairs of other sisters. It allows for the most perfect cover. She picks a sister with few friends, removes her, takes her place, becomes very 'busy' with something so that she does not have time for her friends. She uses other black sisters to run interference for her as necessary. In the case of anyone being TOO forceful, she uses her Forsaken Mind Trick and goes on her merry way.

[Alys Kinch]

**Alys: I am interested in what you are saying about timing of release from the Bore. More info if you could, please, because it is not something I have completely delved into (no pun intended). **

 

ishy was released forty-ish years before the start of the eye of the world. he is the only one to be released at that time. balthamel is the next, followed by aginor (we don't know specifics on the rest, just that they came quickly after). he was released right before or during the time of the events in the eye of the world. there is no way that mesaana could have done all these things in less than two years. according to the time line, she would have had to in order to suit your theory.

also, she is a novice with elaida. she was pillow friends with elaida. that negates another part of your theory.

third, aes sedi have a roster for a reason. if no one had ever heard of her, it would be largely suspect. most aes sedi have atleast heard of each other at some point. if you have a large group and no one had heard of you or been in classes as novice or accepted, especially the head of your ajah, well, let's just say you blew your cover.

 

sorry to have to shoot you down, but is there anything else?

 

don't forget, paradoxic, that the best cover would be found in the ranks of a brown. if you use the verin approach, you find out much and only the most clever will notice how much you use the disguise to your advantage. which i suppose is the reason danelle is so appealing to so many. she is one of the only ones we can name, aside from verin, and she was in on the coupe.

[Guest Egwene]

There is no reason for Mesaana not to be one of the sisters. We know that many of them spend a lot of time outside the white tower. And as long as she looks the part...

 

Imagine a friend coming back after a six month trip away... maybe someone that has always been a bit of a loner.. if he doesn't want to talk.. well you just give up after a while, you don't assume someone has stolen his identity... Mesaana really doesn't need to know a great deal about the person whose place she has taken.

[Guest cwestervelt]

You just have the slight problem that every Aes Sedai seem to know all of the particulars about everyone else's time as Novice and Accepted. That gives a lot of room for slipping up.

[Alys Kinch]

except that they don't really pay all that much attention to the browns who are normally loners. browns don't really fit into the normal swing of things because they tend to need a sister to elbow them to keep them on course. unless knowledge is specifically needed, it is unlikely that a sister is going to be close to a brown or remember much about her other than she is about x age, and it took her x years as novice and x as accepted, she tested x times, and she is x stong compared to me. o.k. this is my reaction...

[Guest Egwene]

You only need to know things if you let yourself get roped into a conversation. I am certain Mesaana won't invite any conversation in that direction.

[Guest cwestervelt]

You need to know that information about every one of the Sisters, all of the time. I believe it has even been mentioned at least once that time with the Shawl, time as Accepted, and time as Aes Sedai are the 3 things that every Sister knows about every other one.

 

In a meeting of 2 Sisters of relatively equal strength, who defers to who boils down to time as Aes Sedai, time as Accepted, and time as Novice. Even just wandering around the halls of the Tower a Sister would need to know that much or she wouldn't know if she had to step to the side of the hallway for the approaching Sister, or if that one had to step asside for her. After strength, that time spent at each level is the most important element in their ranking.

[Lanthirrhos]

Messana is rand!

[Guest cwestervelt]

You need to know that information about every one of the Sisters' date=' all of the time. I believe it has even been mentioned at least once that time with the Shawl, time as Accepted, and time as Aes Sedai are the 3 things that every Sister knows about every other one.

 

In a meeting of 2 Sisters of relatively equal strength, who defers to who boils down to time as Aes Sedai, time as Accepted, and time as Novice. Even just wandering around the halls of the Tower a Sister would need to know that much or she wouldn't know if she had to step to the side of the hallway for the approaching Sister, or if that one had to step asside for her. After strength, that time spent at each level is the most important element in their ranking.[/quote']

 

I found the source for that of the quote I was refering too.

 

Lord of Chaos Chapter 43 "The Crown of Roses" page 549. Merana Pov

Verin was the problem, the one who had Merana thinking of strengths and precedence. Merana let herself sense the other woman's strength in the Power again, though of course she knew what she would find. No way to tell which of them was stronger. Five years a novice for eacj, six as

Accepted; that was one thing every Aes Sedai knew about every other if she knew nothing else.

[Jedimuppet]

You need to know that information about every one of the Sisters' date=' all of the time. I believe it has even been mentioned at least once that time with the Shawl, time as Accepted, and time as Aes Sedai are the 3 things that every Sister knows about every other one.

 

In a meeting of 2 Sisters of relatively equal strength, who defers to who boils down to time as Aes Sedai, time as Accepted, and time as Novice. Even just wandering around the halls of the Tower a Sister would need to know that much or she wouldn't know if she had to step to the side of the hallway for the approaching Sister, or if that one had to step asside for her. After strength, that time spent at each level is the most important element in their ranking.[/quote']

 

I found the source for that of the quote I was refering too.

 

Lord of Chaos Chapter 43 "The Crown of Roses" page 549. Merana Pov

Verin was the problem, the one who had Merana thinking of strengths and precedence. Merana let herself sense the other woman's strength in the Power again, though of course she knew what she would find. No way to tell which of them was stronger. Five years a novice for eacj, six as

Accepted; that was one thing every Aes Sedai knew about every other if she knew nothing else.

 

What I always wondered is why bother with the disquise at all? I mean, the books make it clear that she's in the tower, but why does she need to be. She's got how many lackeys in there, can change her appearance at will, and use compulsion...

 

Why doesn't she just gateway in when she needs to, use the mask of mirrors and compulsion to go wherever she wants, and avoid the whole trouble?

 

*shrug* seems a lot easier than assuming a sister's identity, although it seems she's done just that.

 

J

[Guest cwestervelt]

Have we ever been given much information on involved in Elaida's palace construction project? To me, it would be easier for someone to hide as an important business woman using that as a reason to be in and out of the Tower, than to hide as an Aes Sedai. Alviarin would likely recognize at least the management and design staff involved. She also should recognize any bankers that are funding the project.

[Jedimuppet]

Have we ever been given much information on involved in Elaida's palace construction project? To me' date=' it would be easier for someone to hide as an important business woman using that as a reason to be in and out of the Tower, than to hide as an Aes Sedai. Alviarin would likely recognize at least the management and design staff involved. She also should recognize any bankers that are funding the project.[/quote']

 

That's a good point. Alviarin just can't imagine her wanting to be anything but a sister, but it would be a lot easier to be someone else...

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

At heart, Mesaana is supposed to be a nerd. Frustrated researcher relegated to teaching.

 

Tar Valon has the best library system in the world. Extensive collections of artifacts, flora, fauna, etc.

 

Where else is a nerd gonna go?

[Jedimuppet]

At heart' date=' Mesaana is supposed to be a nerd. Frustrated researcher relegated to teaching.

 

Tar Valon has the best library system in the world. Extensive collections of artifacts, flora, fauna, etc.

 

Where else is a nerd gonna go?[/quote']

 

Seriously? She's not a dumb nerd, if nerd she is. I don't think it's in character for her to jeopardize her entire operation because she can't get enough books. Aside from which, she can probably make herself invisible, look like an anonymous servant, etc. If she wanted books and research she could have it at leisure, regardless of disquise, so I dont' think that's a factor.

J

[Guest Egwene]

cwestervelt, whatever identity Mesaana took over, she would have asked a few 'questions' before disposing of the body. In any case, it would only take someone with reasonable psychology and body language knowledge to be able to juggle conversations in such a way that they would be able to gloos over any indiscretions they may have comitted by not defering correctly.

 

Of course, the easiest would be to go for someone quite high in the standing. All you would need to know would be the names of the few that are stronger than you!!

[Alys Kinch]

***shrug* seems a lot easier than assuming a sister's identity, although it seems she's done just that. **

 

because mask of mirrors only works well when the mask looks nearly like you. which is why alviarin even saw through it in the first place. also, easier and smarter to get your info first hand rather than all second or third or more.

[Barnabas]

everyone has been saying that mesaana would need all the details of whoever she took over, so wouldnt it be easier to take the position of someone that everyone she comes into contact with would automatically defer to? either through personality, position or both? ive only really thought this while reading the posts, cos before it seemed a bit farfetched and blatant. but the returned red sister from exile who is now the head of that ajah, and whos name i completely forget, begins with t. it seems a bit weird though that the sister has only returned now when mesaana has been involved for a while, but u never know, i forget if we've had a pov from her unfortunately, which could completely change it. everyone who meets her though thinks that shes changed through exile, a lot harder and angrier, and assume its due to being sent away from 20 years, but what if mesaana uses this attitude and position to keep people from asking questions about her? dunno, i originally was thinking brown sister as mesaana always wanted to find information/research for herself and not be a teacher so that would be my thoughts as to where she would go, so theres a couple of ideas.

[Guest cwestervelt]

everyone has been saying that mesaana would need all the details of whoever she took over' date=' so wouldnt it be easier to take the position of someone that everyone she comes into contact with would automatically defer to? either through personality, position or both? ive only really thought this while reading the posts, cos before it seemed a bit farfetched and blatant. but the returned red sister from exile who is now the head of that ajah, and whos name i completely forget, begins with t. it seems a bit weird though that the sister has only returned now when mesaana has been involved for a while, but u never know, i forget if we've had a pov from her unfortunately, which could completely change it. everyone who meets her though thinks that shes changed through exile, a lot harder and angrier, and assume its due to being sent away from 20 years, but what if mesaana uses this attitude and position to keep people from asking questions about her? dunno, i originally was thinking brown sister as mesaana always wanted to find information/research for herself and not be a teacher so that would be my thoughts as to where she would go, so theres a couple of ideas.[/quote']

 

You must mean Tsutama Rath. I don't know much about her other than the name, and I had to look that one up.

 

At first I thought you were talking about Toveine Gazal who is also Red Sister who just returned from exile sounded like. Toviene can be ruled out, but I don't know about Tsutama. I still favor someone who is not Aes Sedai myself as it gets around a lot of issues with remaining hidden.

[rd2000]

It is almost certainly Tsutama who is actually Mesaana. The timing of her return was perfect for Mesaana's release from the bore. And hints have been laid as far as how much her personality has changed,(used to be timid, is now forceful). I know the hints are in the first several books, but not sure where exactly. Anyway, though I am new here (hello all!) I have been reading this series from when they first came out, many moons ago and still read them over and over. I am positive beyond doubt that Tsutama is actually Mesaana.

[Barnabas]

yep, tsutama is the one i meant, was too lazy to find books and grab her name. i forgot bout toveine in all honesty, was she head of the red though before she left? cos wasnt it galina? dunno, doesnt matter i guess, i just think the timing and the change in tsutama is too convenient to be laid at the door of exile, at least not solely

[Guest cwestervelt]

yep' date=' tsutama is the one i meant, was too lazy to find books and grab her name. i forgot bout toveine in all honesty, was she head of the red though before she left? cos wasnt it galina? dunno, doesnt matter i guess, i just think the timing and the change in tsutama is too convenient to be laid at the door of exile, at least not solely[/quote']

 

I think Tovienne was a Sitter for the Red before her exile. It was your comments about leading the Red Ajah that made me start looking for another T that returned from exile as that was the only piece that didn't fit.

 

And hints have been laid as far as how much her personality has changed' date='(used to be timid, is now forceful).[/quote']

 

She was never timid. On page 111 of New Spring: The Novel she is describe as "beautiful and hard-eyed enough to make Moiraine flinch"

 

On page 49 of Knife of Dreams we are told "Tsutama was a strikingly beautiful woman..." then "Back then, she had been hammer-hard, yet many had thought her a broken reed when she returned to the Tower. For a while they had. Then everyone who spent any time near her realized that those shifting eyes were far from nervous. Exile had changed her, only not toward softness." It has changed yes, but only to make her fiercer than she ever was. Tsutama's voice is also "calm as smooth ice" which doesn't fit with a "voice of silver chimes" attributed to Mesaana. Mesaana could be a good actor I suppose, but there are a lot of tenuous points.

 

Don't forget what Alys mentioned about disguises. It has been pointed out numerous times that a disguise is easier to maintain the closer to your true appearance that you stay. Mesaana is also masking her ability to channel even when alone with Alviarin. To me, this indicates that she is hiding as a non-channeller and is just using the screens to hide her appearance.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Tsutama is too ostentatious. Clocks everywhere. Red Sea Folk porcelain. She flaunts the trappings of power and wealth.

 

Mesaana is described as not caring about appearances at all. Power means almost everything to her, but the trappings of power mean nothing.

 

Tsutama's manner is hard. Her voice uninflected. Her language coarse. If that's all acting, she's going to have a very hard time giving it up on the rare occasions when she's just being herself.

 

Mesaana is not described as having any of those personal qualities.

 

The only real things Tsutama has going for her are the timing of her arrival, and her position as head of the Red Ajah.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Bob, is it possible that we agree on something?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Couldn't be. You must be hallucinating. :D :lol: :D :lol:

[Guest Egwene]

agreeing twice in a month... don't make a habit of it guys... :lol:

 

I guess for Tsutama we are back to trying to establish a time frame. When was the recall and when does Mesaana turn up in the tower?

 

... and it would mean ignoring the hints of brown dresses seen on Mesaana. Of course they could have been a) a red herring or b)Mesaana impersonates a Red because cirumstances demand it, but she regards herself a s Brown and dresses accordingly when possible...