R.J. didn't lie but "Mazrim Taim" is Demandred

[Mik]

RJ directly stated that the reason Bashere doesn't recognise Taim is because Taim had been travelling hard, and looked about ten years older--which is also the reason Rand mistakes his age.

I did not dispute that. In fact, I agree he has been travelling hard. Just in a different direction at first. And the wording suggests he 'was being travelled'.

 

By description Taim and Moridin look nothing alike.

 

I'm sorry Mik, Taim is not Moridin. For starters we know that they are very different in appearence--Taim would therefore need to be maintaining a constant Illusion, and Illusions do not hold in the face of such difference. It would have been pierced, just like how Mesaana's dress shows up under her Illusion.

"nothing alike"? C'mon. There are differences. Nothing that Illusion can't hide.

It's not like Taim was a midget and Moridin a giant.

They are about the same size. And RJ just focused on different aspects of their face when describing them. *shrugs*

It would be too easy if they were almost exact copies, I guess.

 

From there we have the fact that Moridin issued different orders to Kisman than Taim. Somewhat confusing if they are the same person..

The fact that it confuses you, doesn't make it impossible. As said earlier, Moridin doesn't want anyone to realize he's Taim. And I guess RJ doesn't want you to find out early and easy either.

 

No description of Taim exists pre LoC. The Taim we get to see in LoC, is Moridin, but slightly altered with the True Power. Not that hard. Not detectable.

Not that possible. We have no evidence to suggest such a thing could be done. Furthermore, why would it be done if his purpose was to impersonate Taim..

"Not that possible"? What do you mean? That your appearance can't be altered with the True Power?

Sorry, but wrong. There more reason to believe it can be done, straight from RJ;

 

Q: Mr. Jordan, you've outdone yourself with Crown of Swords. My question concerns the True Power. How is it distinguishable from the One Power? 

A: It's fairly self-evident from the book. What can be done with the True Power is very similar to what can be done with the One Power. Except that where the One Power is drawn from the True Source and is the force that drives the Wheel of Time and powers the universe, the so-called True Power is drawn from the Dark One. There are limits in the same ways there are limits to the One Power. It would be very long if I went into it too much, but some of those limits and costs of drawing on the Dark One are shown in CROWN OF SWORDS.

Source: http://www.geocities.com/raina_sedai/creator-op-tp.htm

If you are willing to 'pay the price' and are allowed to use the "True" Power, the effects are the same as what can be achieved with the One Power. The road and price to Rome are different, but the distination is equal.

 

So, I like to think there is more reason to believe it can be done, then that it can't be done.

 

And whether Moridin is using an illusion or whether Taim is, I can't tell.

Might even be easier if Moridin is using a True Power MoM. He's using the TP constantly anyway.

The point remains; it can be done & the differences in appearance aren't all that big as you make them out to be, IMO.

 

I know it's all individual interpretation and I can understand how one reads that quote as "Taim made a hard journey". And in fact, I agree to an extend. But I think the journey is slightly different then the one you guys suggest. He didn't actively go to Caemlyn. He was taken to Shayol Ghul and killed. His body was rode hard and put away wet. After that it went to Caemlyn with a new mind & soul, making the flight long and difficult, so to speak. And ofcourse that has a wearing effect on anyone.

I'm sorry, but there is not room for interpretation there--RJ specifically cites that it was the journey to Caemlyn that was difficult--if he were Moridin he would have travelled there, and thats not difficult.

It's funny though, that "Taim" already knew about Travelling before Rand showed him how. So why could Moridin do it, and Taim couldn't have? The two don't mix.

 

Being brought to Shayol Ghul to have another Soul & Mind being transmigrated into you and then Travelling to Caemlyn is 'being put away wet' & 'long and difficult' to say the least.

How is your version of this trip 'being put away wet' & 'long & difficult', I wonder.

I mean, based on "Taim" his respons above, he already knew how to Travel....

 

Here's the quote, right after Rand shows "Taim" how to use a Gateway;

“This lot was dredged from the bottom of . . . ” Taim began contemptuously, then

stopped in the middle of the farmyard, staring at Rand. Chickens scratched in the

dust around his feet. “You haven’t tested any of them? Why, in the name of . . . ? You

cannot, can you? You can Travel, but you do not know how to test for the talent.”

"Taim" already knows how to Travel. So what makes you believe he ran & drove a horse to Caemlyn?

Indeed, he didn't. And like you said; Moridin can Travel and it's not difficult.

Doesn't this prove my point?

 

Moridin also had no fear of being hunted, yet RJ directly stated that was the reason for Taim's travel. You can't get around that.

Sure I can: The world (and you, for that matter) still think Taim = Taim. The White Tower still wants Taim brought to the Tower for gentling. If that isn't "being hunted", I don't know what is.

 

If the world thinks you are Osama, you're going to be chased. Even if you're actually Luckers posing as Osama. Right? Right.  ;)

 

Quote;

What does everyone not know, that you and Mazrim Taim [speaking of'"himself" in the third person?] will?” Focused on Bashere, he seemed unaware of his guards, or their swords still hovering near his ribs. “I hear you hid what happened to Musar and Hachari and their wives.” The mockery was gone; he was just relating what had happened, now. “They shouldn’t have tried to kill me under a parley flag. I trust you found them good places as servants? All they’ll really want to do now is serve and obey; they won’t be happy otherwise. I could have killed them. They all four drew daggers.”

 

“Taim,” Bashere growled, hand darting for his hilt, “you . . . !”

-----------------------------------------------------------------

And yes, that makes Bashere a darkfriend, because he realises someone just said it out loud and his first reaction is to draw a sword and end the threat of his exposure. it takes him a while to realise he's standing in front of someone even higher up the Darkffriend-foodchain (the top in fact) There's more though, but it's another discusion. (I think Bashere & Taim are the Serpents in the bossom)

That is the single worst argument I've ever seen. I'm sorry man, I wish i could put that more smoothly... but seriously?

Uh..why?

Isn't  "Serve & obey" the credo of Shai'tan? And when used, always between Friends of the Dark among themselves. See the quotes below. Nothing much ever makes Bashere tick, but that did.

On top of that; Taim was competely confident & at ease, ignoring 5 weapons drawn inches from his body. True Power anyone?

“I [Dakrfriend Suroth] know very well what has been commanded, marath’damane, though I would give much to know why.”

“However much you were told, child,” [black Ajah] Liandrin sneered, “that is how much you are allowed to know.

Remember that you serve and obey.

(TGH, Chapter 40 – Damane)

 

“If [Rand] frightens you, then kill him.” Before the words were well out of his mouth he would have swallowed them if he could.

Disbelief and scorn twisted Graendal’s face. “I serve the Great Lord and obey, Sammael.”

“As do I. As well as any.”

(LoC, Chapter 6 – Threads Woven of Shadow)

 

“If you would serve me, child [Alviarin], then you must serve and obey me [Mesaana]. Not Semirhage or Demandred. Not Graendal or anyone else. Only me. And the Great Lord, of course, but me above all save him.”

(ACoS, Prologue – Lightnings)

 

“I [Carridin] live to serve and obey, Great Master.” He did not believe he was a coward, but no one disobeyed one of the Chosen [sammael]. Not more than once.

(ACoS, Chapter 15 – Insects)

 

“I [Mili Skane] live to serve and obey, master,” she breathed. She had said that to Old Cully every time he saw them together, but never before to him [Carridin].

(ACoS, Chapter 15 – Insects)

 

“I live to serve and obey you, Great Mistress [Mesaana],” Alviarin panted between kisses. “I know that I am among the lowest of the low, a worm in your presence, and I pray only for your smile.”

(TPoD, Chapter 25 - An Unwelcome Return)

 

[Mik]

How about I give you all two more bones to chew on...

I've added my thoughts in [these brackets].

 

The Dragons climbing the sleeves of [Taims] black coat glittered in the sunlight; thread-of-gold would do for the one, but what could make the blue shine so? Abruptly [Taim] raised his voice. “Kisman! Rochaid! Drag Torval away and douse him until he wakes. No Healing, mind you. Maybe an aching head will teach him to mind his tongue.”

 

Two men in black coats, younger than Rand, came running and bent over Torval, then hesitated, glancing at Taim. After a moment, Rand felt saidin fill them; flows of Air lifted a limp Torval, and the pair trotted away with him floating between them.

 

I should have killed him [Taim] long ago [say, three thousand years ago?], Lews Therin panted. I should have . . . should have . . . there was a stretching toward the Source.

 

No, burn you! Rand thought. No, you don’t! You’re only a bloody voice! With a fading wail Lews Therin fled.

 

Rand took a slow breath. Taim was looking at him, wearing that almost-smile.

 

…/ /…I will kill him,[Taim] Lews Therin shouted, and Rand felt that fumbling reach toward saidin.

 

Go away, he said firmly. The fumbling continued, and so did the voice.

 

I will kill him, [Taim] and then them. [Kisman, Rochaid & Torval] They must serve him. It is plain; they must serve him. [and Lews Therin is right again; they are new Dreadlords - already proven]

 

Go away, Rand shouted back silently. You are nothing but a voice! Stretching toward the Source.

 

Oh, Light, I killed them all. All that I loved [see Prologue]. If I kill him, [Taim] it will be well, though. I can make it up, if I kill him [Taim] finally. [this only makes sense if Ishamael is Taim] No, nothing can make up [for killing all those I loved], but I must kill him anyway. Kill them all.[All the Dreadlords] I must. I must.

 

No! Rand screamed inside his head. You’re dead, Lews Therin. I am alive, burn you, and you are dead! You are dead!

 

Abruptly he realized he was leaning on the table, holding himself up with sagging knees. And muttering, “You are dead! I am alive, and you are dead!” But he had not seized saidin. And neither had Lews Therin. Shivering, he looked at Taim and was surprised to see concern on the man’s face.

(LoC, Chapter 42 - The Black Tower)

1. So, what would make the Blue of his coat shine so...? Oh.. I dunno, but if Taim is Moridin, the True Power would be the easy answer.

 

2. And  -the cherry on the pie in this quote-, WHO should Lews Therin have killed 'long ago'? WHO should he kill 'finally', in relation to 'killing all that LTT loved'?

Exactly; Ishamael, transmigrated into Taims body as Moridin. (tadaaah!)

 

Anyone have another take on this?

You could always play the "LTT is mad" card, but quite frankly, most of what LTT says isn't all that wierd. That goes for everything in the books, not just this quote.

 

See? It isn't that hard to come up with new stuff about books that have been debated to 'death' (sorry, couldn't resist a pun *snicker*)

 

There's plenty of clues. Please take my word for it.

No. Show us these "clues". Then we can show you just how pitiful your case is. Or jusr do as Maj says and look at any of the other threads which have already disproven this theory (which requires out of character acting for Ishamael, and is unsupported by anything but the most tenuous reasoning).

So, Mr Ares. Care to show me how pitiful my case is with just this one quote?

 

Cheers,

Mik

 

 

 

Edit:

-------------

There's more, but I still haven't finished my 12 chapter-theory.

It's now over 90 pages long.. *cry*  :-\

[Hybrid]

What is this about "serve and obey"?  Can you quote it?

Sure I can;

 

What does everyone not know, that you and Mazrim Taim [speaking of'"himself" in the third person?] will?” Focused on Bashere, he seemed unaware of his guards, or their swords still hovering near his ribs. “I hear you hid what happened to Musar and Hachari and their wives.” The mockery was gone; he was just relating what had happened, now. “They shouldn’t have tried to kill me under a parley flag. I trust you found them good places as servants? All they’ll really want to do now is serve and obey; they won’t be happy otherwise. I could have killed them. They all four drew daggers.”

 

“Taim,” Bashere growled, hand darting for his hilt, “you . . . !”

And yes, that makes Bashere a darkfriend, because he realises someone just said it out loud and his first reaction is to draw a sword and end the threat of his exposure. it takes him a while to realise he's standing in front of someone even higher up the Darkffriend-foodchain (the top in fact) There's more though, but it's another discusion. (I think Bashere & Taim are the Serpents in the bossom)

See, I think the simple and straightforward answer to this is that Taim is mocking Bashere and gloating about compulsing the crap out of two of his men and their wives a la Graendal.  Bashere reacts as any man would react.  He is enraged at both the thought of his failure in the first place and what Taim has done to his men and their wives.  Saldaea has a very proud warrior culture, and this is like denying them the deaths in battle they deserve.  It's a slap in the face.

[Mik]

What is this about "serve and obey"?  Can you quote it?

Sure I can;

 

What does everyone not know, that you and Mazrim Taim [speaking of'"himself" in the third person?] will?” Focused on Bashere, he seemed unaware of his guards, or their swords still hovering near his ribs. “I hear you hid what happened to Musar and Hachari and their wives.” The mockery was gone; he was just relating what had happened, now. “They shouldn’t have tried to kill me under a parley flag. I trust you found them good places as servants? All they’ll really want to do now is serve and obey; they won’t be happy otherwise. I could have killed them. They all four drew daggers.”

 

“Taim,” Bashere growled, hand darting for his hilt, “you . . . !”

And yes, that makes Bashere a darkfriend, because he realises someone just said it out loud and his first reaction is to draw a sword and end the threat of his exposure. it takes him a while to realise he's standing in front of someone even higher up the Darkffriend-foodchain (the top in fact) There's more though, but it's another discusion. (I think Bashere & Taim are the Serpents in the bossom)

See, I think the simple and straightforward answer to this is that Taim is mocking Bashere and gloating about compulsing the crap out of two of his men and their wives a la Graendal.  Bashere reacts as any man would react.  He is enraged at both the thought of his failure in the first place and what Taim has done to his men and their wives.  Saldaea has a very proud warrior culture, and this is like denying them the deaths in battle they deserve.  It's a slap in the face.

C'mon Hybrid.

 

“I hear you hid what happened to Musar and Hachari and their wives.” The mockery was gone; he was just relating what had happened, now.

1. "Taim" was stating what had occured, not mocking (anymore). So clearly, Bashere didn't react to mocking. Besides, Bashere isn't one easily provoked.

 

2. How would he be suddenly 'enraged' by something he himself hid months ago? he already knew he had failed.

 

Saldaea has a very proud warrior culture, and this is like denying them the deaths in battle they deserve.  It's a slap in the face.

Oh please...

 

You think this is "simple and straightforward", when you ignore the fact Bashere freaks the moment Taim speaks of "Serve & Obey", in combination with his dirty tactics??

 

"I , Lord Davram Bashere challenge you to a duel, good sir Taim. You insulted my beloved country & my proud warrior culture". Nah.

 

"Taim" practically tells Bashere there;

I know you are a Friend of the Dark, with your dirty tactics and you sending your Dark cronies to kill Taim, but they failed.

 

The questions you should be asking yourself are;

1. "Why would a decent general like Bashere use evil tactics like "assassination under a parley flag"?

Bashere "hid" those facts, because he knows they are eeevillll.

He's enraged because his dirty little secret just went public. Fortunately for Bashere, Rand doesn't pick it up.

 

2. "Where are Musar, Hachari and their wives??"

Taim send them back to Bashere, after their failed attempt. And all they want to do is "serve & obey"....I'd love to see those 4...or their unmarked graves.

That's the question Rand should have asked Bashere.

 

 

Also care to explain my previous post?

The one about really shiny blue dragons & finally offing 'Ishy'...?

[Hybrid]

He's enraged because his dirty little secret just went public. Fortunately for Bashere, Rand doesn't pick it up.

So somewhere in here, Bashere picks up on the fact that Taim is a Darkfriend, despite the fact that he tried to kill him?  You'll forgive me for not buying that.

 

You are looking for meanings in the strangest places.  I stand by what I said.  Of all the things Taim could have done to prove his identity (and it wasn't really in question), he chose one that proved that Bashere used unconventional tactics.  In addition, he states directly that he could have killed the four, but instead he turned them into brainless servants.  If I had a choice, I would choose death, thank you very much, and I'm not from Saldaea.  Saldaea does have a warrior culture, despite what you seem to think to the contrary.  The fact that Bashere used the tactic of attempting to kill Taim under parley does not make him evil.  He was simply fighting fire with fire.  Taim was on a rampage, sending Saldaea, one of the Borderlands, into chaos, and he was winning.  Bashere had to maintain Saldaea's strength to defend the Blight.  If he was a Darkfriend, it would have been far more beneficial to simply let Saldaea tear itself apart, a strategy that the Forsaken have already utilized in Seanchan, for example.

 

You stated that RJ said the simplest, most straightforward explanation is the best.  Well, the simplest, most straightforward explanation is that Taim is none other than Taim.

 

Also care to explain my previous post?

The one about really shiny blue dragons & finally offing 'Ishy'...?

Fascinating.  Moridin, hiding as Taim, provides a dead giveaway by using the True Power to modify his clothing.  He must be a very vain man.  Oh wait, that was Rahvin.  Here's the much more obvious answer, SILK:

The shimmering appearance for which silk is prized comes from the fibers' triangular prism-like structure which allows silk cloth to refract incoming light at different angles.

 

I think we can agree that Lews Therin is talking about Ishamael.  But why do you think that that proves that Ishamael is Taim?  And how would Lews Therin recognize that Taim is Ishamael, if he's using the undetectable True Power?  A far better explanation is exactly that Lews Therin is off his rocker.  He's mad, and he wants to kill Ishamael.  He always moans about Ilyena.  That doesn't mean the Elayne or any other beautiful woman around Rand is Ilyena in disguise using the True Power.

 

Why don't you reply to the argument about the difference in Moridin and Taim's tactics?  Interestingly, you seem to be ignoring it...

[benr]

I seem to recall that there is a very short window for the soul (or essence) of a Forsaken to be placed in a new body.  How does the timeline fit for the purported end of Taim and the death of Ishy?

[Mik]

He's enraged because his dirty little secret just went public. Fortunately for Bashere, Rand doesn't pick it up.

So somewhere in here, Bashere picks up on the fact that Taim is a Darkfriend, despite the fact that he tried to kill him?  You'll forgive me for not buying that.

You are forgiven. I realise the shock of saying the same ol' same ol' year after year. That kinda sticks to you. It takes a little time to take what I'm saying at face value and re-read sections in a different light. *shrugs*

I'm not doing me a favor by investing time here by the way... I like to think I'm doing you one.  ;)

 

Bashere his instinctive reaction is to attack & kill the person who exposes him a Darkfriend. Realizing it must be another Friend of the Dark (to say the least) who wrapped the message so that Darkfriends alone would pick up the hidden message comes later. Discussing Bashere matters little to the actual discussion at hand though. Let's focus on Taim.

 

You are looking for meanings in the strangest places.

Why, thank you. I consider that a compliment. *bow*

Although I don't find them strange at all; it's all in the same books we read.

 

Also care to explain my previous post?

The one about really shiny blue dragons & finally offing 'Ishy'...?

Fascinating.  Moridin, hiding as Taim, provides a dead giveaway by using the True Power to modify his clothing.  He must be a very vain man.  Oh wait, that was Rahvin.  Here's the much more obvious answer, SILK:

The shimmering appearance for which silk is prized comes from the fibers' triangular prism-like structure which allows silk cloth to refract incoming light at different angles.

About the dead giveaway:

I don't know if Moridin is very vain. I doubt it. But using the True Power does send a very clear message to his followers in the Black Tower;

"Look, I use the Power of Shai'tan under the Dragon Reborns very nose. That which Marks the Dragon, marks me in the stronger True Power. Who is more powerful here?".

 

And what is the risk? Judging from Rand's reaction in ACoS (Chapter 41) to 'the wanderer' using the True Power, he doesn't even know what it is when used right in front of his nose. I consider it a 'dead giveaway' (very funny, that!) to the readers, yeah. But not to the non darkfriend characters.

 

About the silk:

I'm sorry, but are you suggesting silk is actually rare or something? That it's the first time Rand saw it and wondered "Wow, that's a cool fabric! Look how nice it shines!"

 

Rand has been seeing and wearing silk in every colour and in every way (embroidered, cloth, shirts) you can possibly immagine since The Great Hunt. He's been surounded by people wearing it (dresses, coats, whatnot) ever since The Great Hunt. Are you telling me he takes one look at Taims coat with blue and gold dragons and noticed how silk shines so nice all of a sudden.

The responce you read in the books to silk in every other instance & in this specific situation do. not. match.

 

The fact that Rand notices it on Dragons on the arms of Taim, are like arrows of pulsing light, shouting "something is amiss here!"

 

And, slightly less important, because it's based on opinion;

Do you honestly think gold-thread and silk shine with the same intensity?

So yeah, it IS a dead giveaway; to readers.

 

I think we can agree that Lews Therin is talking about Ishamael.

Good!

 

But why do you think that that proves that Ishamael is Taim?

It's called logic and deduction. There's plenty of people around here who use enough of it, to see it makes sense. I trust you to use your own judgement.

I think it's not too bold to say, that it's "intuitively obvious".  :D

I'm not sure what's more surprising. Me bringing it up here for the first time years after the book came out, or you not wanting to see it. I guess it does matters who is the bearer of a message, eh?

 

And how would Lews Therin recognize that Taim is Ishamael, if he's using the undetectable True Power?

I don't know, but judging from that quote, he can.

Worrying about the "how" doesn't make it go away if we don't have a reasonable explanation for it.

You didn't think LTT was actually warning Rand about the Gray Man when he said "Death comes", did you? Not after you just agreed with me that LTT was refering to Ishamael earlier..? Look who walks in..!:

“Nasty things, the Soulless.” Anybody else would have shivered; not Taim. “I came to your balcony by gateway because I thought you would want to hear the news right away.”

“Somebody who learns too fast?” Rand broke in, and Taim flashed that half-smile again. (LoC, Chapter 28 – Letters)

RJ has put small hints here and there. Some in the books. Some in interviews. When you put all those together, it spells "Moridin poses as Taim".

And perhaps, he doesn't want that to be found out easy. Maybe he didn't even want people to find out before he actually planned to show us in AMoL. And then be'd be able to say 'the clues were all there, all the time'. Knowing RJ -Aes Sedai inventor-, he'd love to have a few hidden aces in his hand when the stakes are highest and slam them on the table after the River.

 

More food for thought?  ;)

 

Why don't you reply to the argument about the difference in Moridin and Taim's tactics?  Interestingly, you seem to be ignoring it...

You're grasping at straws.

If we hadn't read it, would you believe Perrin "the Builder" would cut of a prisoners hand?  How you behave is a choice. *shrugs*

When you look at Taims behaviour, you see it takes him A LOT of self-control to act a certain way. Especially when something surprises "Taim", you see his true nature surface for a mere second or two. Rage, snarling, anger..

Like i said; how you behave is a choice. His true nature only shows when caught off guard.

 

I seem to recall that there is a very short window for the soul (or essence) of a Forsaken to be placed in a new body.  How does the timeline fit for the purported end of Taim and the death of Ishy?

I just checked my notes;

Saven-9 / May-19; Ishamael killed

Amadaine-1 / Jun-08; The Amyrlin shares that she has heard that the Blight has retreated for two miles from Saldea to Shienar. (20 days after Ishy dies)

Amadaine-1 / Jun-08; Word reaches the Amyrlin that Taim has been ‘freed’. (20 days after Ishy dies)

 

So, there's a 20 day gap between the actual death of Ishy and word reaching the Amyrlin of Taim 'escape'(ahum). That means that there's less then 20 days in between the two and that the Blight has retreated at the same time.

I added the extra bit about the Blight retreating because it's on my notes and I feel it's very relevant. To me that spells Shai'tan is redirecting power somewhere. It's not -like the Amyrlin thinks- "the only good news". IMO Shai'tan is just focussing elsewhere. Elsewhere in this case, could very well be 'transmigrating' Ishamael in a very very special way. (more on this in chapter 7 of my theory)

 

Also consider the title of the Chapter we read these things in;

(TSR, Chapter 17 – Deceptions)  :)

 

Anyway. Like I said before, I hope this convinces a few of you just to re-read a few sections in a different 'light'.

 

Cheers,

Mik

 

 

[Luckers]

I did not dispute that. In fact, I agree he has been travelling hard. Just in a different direction at first. And the wording suggests he 'was being travelled'.

 

No, it doesn't. The logistics of using english that way is... absurd.

 

"nothing alike"? C'mon. There are differences. Nothing that Illusion can't hide.

It's not like Taim was a midget and Moridin a giant.

They are about the same size. And RJ just focused on different aspects of their face when describing them. *shrugs*

It would be too easy if they were almost exact copies, I guess.

 

One of the stated differences is the colour of skin, and colour we know to be a major problem in illusion--it shows up with fast movement, always. That ends this game.

 

Just for giggles though, didn't you claim that Moridin actually changed Taim's face using the True Power in order that the other Forsaken not know it was him? Wasn't that a stated reason by you for why Taim looked different to Bashere--your saying he changed the face, then used illusion to change it back, but not completely back...

 

The fact that it confuses you, doesn't make it impossible. As said earlier, Moridin doesn't want anyone to realize he's Taim. And I guess RJ doesn't want you to find out early and easy either.

 

There's no logic in that. Taim and Demandred give exactly the same order, why would Moridin be so prissy--especially when he cared so much about the outcome of that order. There's no reason Taim wouldn't want Rand's shit, so why not give the same order.

 

"Not that possible"? What do you mean? That your appearance can't be altered with the True Power?

Sorry, but wrong. There more reason to believe it can be done, straight from RJ;

 

He's speaking of illusion, not changing a persons actual facial structure.

 

t's funny though, that "Taim" already knew about Travelling before Rand showed him how. So why could Moridin do it, and Taim couldn't have? The two don't mix.

 

Being brought to Shayol Ghul to have another Soul & Mind being transmigrated into you and then Travelling to Caemlyn is 'being put away wet' & 'long and difficult' to say the least.

How is your version of this trip 'being put away wet' & 'long & difficult', I wonder.

I mean, based on "Taim" his respons above, he already knew how to Travel....

 

Here's the quote, right after Rand shows "Taim" how to use a Gateway;

 

Quote

“This lot was dredged from the bottom of . . . ” Taim began contemptuously, then

stopped in the middle of the farmyard, staring at Rand. Chickens scratched in the

dust around his feet. “You haven’t tested any of them? Why, in the name of . . . ? You

cannot, can you? You can Travel, but you do not know how to test for the talent.”

"Taim" already knows how to Travel. So what makes you believe he ran & drove a horse to Caemlyn?

Indeed, he didn't. And like you said; Moridin can Travel and it's not difficult.

Doesn't this prove my point?

 

Dude, the third agers remember Travelling, and the terminology for it--we have several cases were the third agers, seperate from the Aes Sedai refer to the 'ancient art of Travelling'. Taim was also probably trained by Ishamael, but only to a limited degree--Ishamael doesn't like his pets having too much knowledge, and we know travelling is a weave the Forsaken are specifically keeping from their darkfriend channelers.

 

So no, there is no evidence Taim knew how to travel. And one would assume that if he could his journey would not have been so harsh--because again, RJ's comments directly relate to his physical journey in reaching Caemlyn. Your explanation that it was in getting to Shayol Ghoul simply does not work--it was getting to Caemlyn that proved so trying for him.

 

Sure I can: The world (and you, for that matter) still think Taim = Taim. The White Tower still wants Taim brought to the Tower for gentling. If that isn't "being hunted", I don't know what is.

 

I'll say it again, Moridin had no reason to fear being hunted. He would travel directly to Caemlyn, and his education and abilities take him out of the scope of needing to fear any threats that Mazrim Taim faced as Mazrim Taim. No army could follow him, no Aes Sedai could track him.

 

You really can't get around that. Moridin is too powerful and too knowledgeable for any threat that Taim would have had to fear. End of game.

 

Uh..why?

Isn't  "Serve & obey" the credo of Shai'tan? And when used, always between Friends of the Dark among themselves. See the quotes below. Nothing much ever makes Bashere tick, but that did.

On top of that; Taim was competely confident & at ease, ignoring 5 weapons drawn inches from his body. True Power anyone?

 

So, Taim takes and compels some of Bashere's closest followers and dearest friends--compels them to a stage that leaves them mentally retarded, and you claim that Bashere's anger is over a offhand use of a phrase that was designed to show Bashere Taim was a more powerful darkfriend than him?

 

I'm sorry, but I maintain what i said... thats the single most rediculous argument ever. The Shadow does not use such blunt terminology, and your claiming that it serves as proof Bashere is a darkfriend... Wow.

 

2. How would he be suddenly 'enraged' by something he himself hid months ago? he already knew he had failed.

 

He hid it because they acted under the banner of peace. It would have been a PR nightmare for the Saldaean Throne. Doesn't mean he's not still angry about it all.

 

You think this is "simple and straightforward", when you ignore the fact Bashere freaks the moment Taim speaks of "Serve & Obey", in combination with his dirty tactics??

 

Absolutely man. As i said that argument is the most utterly rediculous thought ive heard in a long time. Bashere was angry because Taim made vegetables out of two of his most trusted friends and soldiers. Thats simple. Elaborate wordgames made clear by 'serve and obey'... and Bashere reacting angrily in the face of recieving an underlying darkfriend message.

 

I'm sorry... its nuts.

 

 

[Mik]

If it's all so absurd, I'm sure you have no problem explaining why LTT thinks Taim is Ishamael?

*pionts a few posts up*

 

Absolutely man. As i said that argument is the most utterly rediculous thought ive heard in a long time. Bashere was angry because Taim made vegetables out of two of his most trusted friends and soldiers. Thats simple. Elaborate wordgames made clear by 'serve and obey'... and Bashere reacting angrily in the face of recieving an underlying darkfriend message.

 

I'm sorry... its nuts.

So, Bashere waited to get angry about his so called 'most trusted friends and soldiers', untill Taim brought them up? Kinda wierd Bashere didn't bring it up himself, if they were that important to him. Besides, where are these 'vegetables' anyway?

Any decent general would respect a white flag, fyi. One more thing you wouldn't want brought into the daylight, if your name is Davram Bashere. Nothing to do with 'bad Saldean PR', but with 'good' & 'evil' choices.

 

No, it was the info getting out in the open that made him freak, together with the 'serve & obey'. Not what actually happened that day....

[Hybrid]

You are forgiven. I realise the shock of saying the same ol' same ol' year after year. That kinda sticks to you. It takes a little time to take what I'm saying at face value and re-read sections in a different light. *shrugs*

I'm not doing me a favor by investing time here by the way... I like to think I'm doing you one.  ;)

 

Bashere his instinctive reaction is to attack & kill the person who exposes him a Darkfriend. Realizing it must be another Friend of the Dark (to say the least) who wrapped the message so that Darkfriends alone would pick up the hidden message comes later. Discussing Bashere matters little to the actual discussion at hand though. Let's focus on Taim.

I still don't see how Taim using the words "serve and obey" is supposed to be a hint that he is a Darkfriend.  In addition, I brought up the point that Bashere was attempting to stop Taim.  Why would Bashere make an attempt on Taim's life if he was a Darkfriend?  Surely it would be in Saldaea's favor to eliminate the one major cause of chaos and disruption in a nation that is tasked with defending the largest section of Blight of all of the Borderlands.   

 

About the dead giveaway:

I don't know if Moridin is very vain. I doubt it. But using the True Power does send a very clear message to his followers in the Black Tower;

"Look, I use the Power of Shai'tan under the Dragon Reborns very nose. That which Marks the Dragon, marks me in the stronger True Power. Who is more powerful here?".

According to your theory, Moridin would already be using the True Power to change his appearance.  Why would he additionally use it for fashion purposes?  I don't know if you've seen shiny silk, but that's what it sounds like to me.  In addition, we know that Moridin uses the True Power almost exclusively.  But he uses it for functionality, not fashion.

 

And what is the risk? Judging from Rand's reaction in ACoS (Chapter 41) to 'the wanderer' using the True Power, he doesn't even know what it is when used right in front of his nose. I consider it a 'dead giveaway' (very funny, that!) to the readers, yeah. But not to the non darkfriend characters.

So Rand sees some cloth that is way, way too shiny to be silk and doesn't think twice about it?  Especially when he doesn't detect any Power use?

 

It's called logic and deduction. There's plenty of people around here who use enough of it, to see it makes sense. I trust you to use your own judgement.

I think it's not too bold to say, that it's "intuitively obvious".  :D

I'm not sure what's more surprising. Me bringing it up here for the first time years after the book came out, or you not wanting to see it. I guess it does matters who is the bearer of a message, eh?

It also matters what the message is.  Like I said, Lews Therin moans about killing Ilyena.  That doesn't mean that Elayne, or any other woman, is Ilyena in a True Power disguise.  Yes, I use logic and deduction.  Logic and deduction tell me that it is not intuitively obvious, since I and a number of other users have poked holes in your theory.

 

I don't know, but judging from that quote, he can.

Worrying about the "how" doesn't make it go away if we don't have a reasonable explanation for it.

This is terrible reasoning.  You are using the conclusion to prove the conclusion.  Lews Therin recognizes Taim to be Ishamael!  How?  I don't know, since it should be undetectable, but since Taim is Ishamael, it must be true!

Yes, we do have a reasonable explanation.  Lews Therin rants about not killing Ishamael, because it is one of his favorite topics, besides moaning about Ilyena and his pride and failure.

 

You didn't think LTT was actually warning Rand about the Gray Man when he said "Death comes", did you?

It is not a logical leap for LTT to detect a Gray Man, which Rand can detect.  On the other hand, Rand does not get any funny feelings about Moridin, so there is absolutely no evidence that LTT recognizes Taim to be Moridin.

 

If we hadn't read it, would you believe Perrin "the Builder" would cut of a prisoners hand?

You obviously don't understand Perrin's character.  We have seen that he tries to be careful because of his size.  But at the same time, he flies into rages when something or someone he cares about is at stake, such as when Hopper is killed by the Whitecloaks.  Yes, I would believe that Perrin would cut off a prisoner's hand if Faile was at stake.  Which she was.

 

So, there's a 20 day gap between the actual death of Ishy and word reaching the Amyrlin of Taim 'escape'(ahum). That means that there's less then 20 days in between the two and that the Blight has retreated at the same time.

Meanwhile, Moridin is doing what for three books?  It took a hell of a long time to find bodies for Osan'gar and Aran'gar, but Moridin gets body in less than 20 days?  And they use the body of a probable and powerful Darkfriend male channeler who is well known to the world?  Ridiculous.

 

Any decent general would respect a white flag, fyi. One more thing you wouldn't want brought into the daylight, if your name is Davram Bashere. Nothing to do with 'bad Saldean PR', but with 'good' & 'evil' choices.

A ridiculous argument.  Valda was certainly not above killing every refugee in his path.  Yet he is not a Darkfriend.  If you want a real life metaphor, look at WWII.  We in America dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  Not because we are evil, though I am sure there are people in the world who will disagree with this, but because we wanted to end the war.  Similarly, Bashere attempted to kill Taim under the parley flag because he wanted to stop Saldaea from being torn apart by the conflict.  It is in the Light's advantage to put an end to conflict in the Borderlands, not the Shadow's.

 

In addition, Osan'gar was the Forsaken in the Black Tower.  With so many areas to concentrate on, only one Forsaken has ever been in one place at once.  Sammael in Illian.  Rahvin in Andor.  Bel'al in Tear.  Aran'gar with the rebel AS, Mesaana with Elaida's AS.  Etc.  Especially if Taim was already a Darkfriend, as his declaration as a False Dragon in Saldaea seems to suggest.

 

[Mr Ares]

If anyone here were to take my quote seriously, it would be you ;)

Of course! I wouldn't want to let you down. And you might have noticed, but it wasn't taken completely seriously.

 

let's do a little poll; Who do you first think of' date=' when you read the following words; *manical laughter from the Shadows*[/quote']Robert Jordan. He said them, after all. Why? Are you implying RJ is evil? That's a far more sensible theory than Taidin.

 

RJ said it...and as with the rest of his writing, he hid it so well, that noone picked up- the patterns.

Maybe no-one picked up these patterns because they're not there?

 

Well, RJ once responded in a question about Taim with;

“Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you. <Maniacal laughter from the shadows!>”

So Taim is not Demandred. The rest? He's hiding an answer in plain sight. Taim is Taim. How does that statement imply Moridin in any way?

 

Osan'gar is a lab-rat in a world without labs! Where would you have him go?

Apparently, to train as a soldier.

 

You should see the rest.

Care to show us?

 

you might say Taim has been rode hard and put away wet. He has just finished a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn, the one place where he might find refuge instead of being hunted — along with other reasons — and that has a wearing effect on anyone.

I know it's all individual interpretation and I can understand how one reads that quote as "Taim made a hard journey".

Because it says that. See the underlined bit. A long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn. Not to Shayol Ghul. Caemlyn.

 

From there we have the fact that Moridin issued different orders to Kisman than Taim. Somewhat confusing if they are the same person..

The fact that it confuses you' date=' doesn't make it impossible. As said earlier, Moridin doesn't want anyone to realize he's Taim. And I guess RJ doesn't want you to find out early and easy either.[/quote']It confuses Kisman. Surely that is the bigger problem? Which orders does Moridin want followed? Why would Kisman (or anyone) think Taim is Moridin? Makes no sense.

 

"Taim" already knows how to Travel.

He knows of Travelling. Very far from the same thing. Any evidence that he actually knows how? No.

 

Even if you're actually Luckers posing as Osama. Right?

You've just spoiled his secret identity!

 

There's plenty of clues. Please take my word for it.

No. Show us these "clues". Then we can show you just how pitiful your case is. Or jusr do as Maj says and look at any of the other threads which have already disproven this theory (which requires out of character acting for Ishamael, and is unsupported by anything but the most tenuous reasoning).

So, Mr Ares. Care to show me how pitiful my case is with just this one quote?

Well, others appear to have done the bulk of the work, but I'll lend a hand.

 

There's more, but I still haven't finished my 12 chapter-theory.

It's now over 90 pages long.. *cry*

90 pages? And how many pages will it take to start blowing massive holes in it?

 

I know you are a Friend of the Dark, with your dirty tactics and you sending your Dark cronies to kill Taim, but they failed.

People of the Light have been known to use the same tactics as the Shadow. This is no evidence of Bashere being a DF.

 

2. And  -the cherry on the pie in this quote-, WHO should Lews Therin have killed 'long ago'? WHO should he kill 'finally', in relation to 'killing all that LTT loved'?

Exactly; Ishamael, transmigrated into Taims body as Moridin. (tadaaah!)

 

Anyone have another take on this?

You could always play the "LTT is mad" card, but quite frankly, most of what LTT says isn't all that wierd. That goes for everything in the books, not just this quote.

Of course! LTT rants about Ishy around Taim, therefore Ishy is Taim and Taim is Ishy, right? Wrong. He also rants about Sammael and Demandred. We know Taim is neither of them. Yet he keeps going on about killing Demandred, in particular, in Taim's presence. Why? Taim is not Demandred. So this is no proof of Taim being Moridin.

 

I think we can agree that Lews Therin is talking about Ishamael.

Good!

But that doesn't mean Ishamael is present, any more than ranting about Demandred proved Taim was Demandred.

 

RJ has put small hints here and there. Some in the books. Some in interviews. When you put all those together, it spells "Moridin poses as Taim".

You might want to reread that message, it may have got a bit garbled in transmission. Moridin is not Taim. Taim is not Moridin. Taim is Taim is Taim. Moridin is Moridin.

 

If it's all so absurd, I'm sure you have no problem explaining why LTT thinks Taim is Ishamael?

He's nuts.

 

Nothing to do with 'bad Saldean PR'

Everything to do with it. Very bad news if it comes out that Bashere is willing to assassinate people under a flag of truce. Makes people somewhat reluctant to deal with him under a flag of truce, lest they be assassinated. Bashere doesn't want that getting out. An act of desperation.

 

We in America dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  Not because we are evil' date=' though I am sure there are people in the world who will disagree with this, but because we wanted to end the war.[/quote']I've seen it argued that dropping the bombs probably ended up causing less loss of life than continuing the war with conventional methods would have done.

[Hybrid]

I've seen it argued that dropping the bombs probably ended up causing less loss of life than continuing the war with conventional methods would have done.

Me too.  I'm not advocating dropping the bombs, for the obvious reasons.  Simply, that our goal was to end the war with as few American casualties as possible (which unfortunately does not take into account the number of innocent Japanese lives lost in the process).  My point to Mik is simply that all actions cannot be split into "good" and "evil," nor can actions which are moral or immoral necessarily shed light on someone's views without the full context.  I'm not arguing with you, just clarifying it.

[CatinaSedai]

i still think that mazrim taim is not pretending to be demandred i think that he is demandred like rand is lews therin.  or maybe mazrim taim hears demandreds voices like rand hears lews therin.  can lews thiern exist in the dream world?

[Mr Ares]

I've seen it argued that dropping the bombs probably ended up causing less loss of life than continuing the war with conventional methods would have done.

Me too. I'm not advocating dropping the bombs, for the obvious reasons. Simply, that our goal was to end the war with as few American casualties as possible (which unfortunately does not take into account the number of innocent Japanese lives lost in the process). My point to Mik is simply that all actions cannot be split into "good" and "evil," nor can actions which are moral or immoral necessarily shed light on someone's views without the full context. I'm not arguing with you, just clarifying it.

There is also the point that the loss of innocent Japanese lives in Hiroshima and Nagasaki may have been smaller than the total loss of life - including civilians all over Japan - had the war continued via conventional means. Which means that it could be argued that, even if the dropping of the bombs cannot be considered good, it can at least be seen as the lesser of two evils. And in that, we have a possible explanation for Bashere's actions - he saw assassination under a flag of truce as, if not good, then at least better than the alternative, letting Taim remain free. I agree that it is something of a moral grey area, not at all the black and white Mik appears to be claiming.

 

Also, a couple of thoughts. Are we sure Bashere ordered the attack - that it wasn't something decided on by the victims? And do we know Taim wasn't lying - that he didn't just claim they pulled knives as an excuse?

 

i still think that mazrim taim is not pretending to be demandred i think that he is demandred like rand is lews therin. or maybe mazrim taim hears demandreds voices like rand hears lews therin. can lews thiern exist in the dream world?

LTT can exist in T'a'r, and he does so between incarnations, like Birgitte or Gaidal Cain. But he is not between incarnations now. Taim cannot hear the voice of Demandred like Rand does to LTT. We know they are not the same soul. We know Taim isn't Demandred reborn. Because Demandred is alive still. Likewise we know Taim isn't Demandred in the same way Rand is Lews Therin, because how can Demandred's soul be reborn when still extant as Demandred? It can't. We know, because of RJ's words, in and out of the books, that Demandred has never gone around using the name Mazrim Taim, and Taim is not, never has been, and never will be Demandred. They are two different people. This is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact.

[CatinaSedai]

yes well fact in a book of fiction of couse but yes i see your point.  maybe robert jordan has been just pulling our chain all along with taim it seems he liked to do this a lot.  make us think maybe about something just to suddenly go a different way on us.