Rand will Face SH in the Final Battle...and SH will be the DO in the World......

[bjclinton]

So as I'm going through yet another reread, I've been thinking a lot about TG (like most of us) and in what form the DO will manifest himself. I haven't seen this discussed yet in the past year or two, so if i'm duplicating a past post, my appologies

 

If you think about SH's meeting in The Path of Daggers when he first meets Grandy while Moggy and Lanfear "resurrected" are there, I can't help but think that he's more than just the voice of the DO in Randland. Here's were i'm going with this:

 

He claims that he's the "Hand of the Great Lord" and there is a very familiar way in which he talks to Grandy- as if he's known her for a very long time.

 

We know that the Dark one is already starting to break free and his "Hand" is already touching events in the World. We have actually seen this wording used by both the sides of the light and the sides of the Dark. Its very interesting that that's the name that SH is given by the DO.

 

Although SH appears to be a Fade, he's certainly not one- he's much much more than that and has powers that no other Lurk has ever had

 

Aginor believed that Myrdrall were of "Their World, but also others" which could explain how the DO might have somehow imparted a very very small part of himself and his powers into him

 

Size doesn't matter. Everyone that i've seen post about TG has been wondering about what form the DO will take and whether or not he'll even be a human entity. We know that the final battle will not be fought on a physical level- rather one of power, etc. Therefore, for him to chose to embody SH would not be out of the question

 

Finally, if in fact SH is the "Hand of the Great Lord" that has already started touching the World, it only makes sense to me that as he continues to break out of his prison that SH would become stronger and more fully a part of the DO until the DO fully takes over his body

 

That's what i've come up with so far. Have at it!!!

 

[Aztain]

Thats a good idea, but you seem to think it was SH who was touching the world for the DO, when it was really the DO who started the drought and other accurences. SH may now be just another Fade since he daes have some powers but as SH said himself ( not sure which book I'll look into it later and post again) that what he did was not the power, this is proven since none of the chosen could see and weaves when he sheilded-type-thing them. Anyway I Don't think the DO would use SH as a body. Think about it, Why  would he take the body of a fade? He would have his own powers surpassing what SH can do by far, So it would just be him appearing as a Fade. No I think  the DO would make himself a body resembling human form if he even took a body, there's nothing to say he couldn't just be a being out of sight but there.

[bjclinton]

I see what you're saying, but i'll be more specific.

 

I'm not suggesting that the DO needed a body to do the things that he's done so far (i.e. affecting the weather, etc.), however it certainly makes his job easier to start to lay the ground work ahead of time by having a body ready for him when he does touch the World.

 

As for why he would chose the body of a fade....well, why not!?  ;)

We know that he likes to keep his servants on their toes- what better way to do so than making them report to a creature that they all feel are 100% beneath them. He's not a human, he's not Nae'blis, he's an unknown entity and we still can't really figure out how he fits into the story so far. In fact, his actions and arrogance almost make him seem that he has status above the Nae'blis. He is certainly given powers that is greater than Moridin has been given so far in my opinion.

 

Since we know that the Nae'blis is the Servant of the Great Lord on earth and SH appears to be on a completely different level than Moridin, what does that make SH?

 

 

[MatrixM]

Thats a good idea, but you seem to think it was SH who was touching the world for the DO, when it was really the DO who started the drought and other accurences. SH may now be just another Fade since he daes have some powers but as SH said himself ( not sure which book I'll look into it later and post again) that what he did was not the power, this is proven since none of the chosen could see and weaves when he sheilded-type-thing them. Anyway I Don't think the DO would use SH as a body. Think about it, Why  would he take the body of a fade? He would have his own powers surpassing what SH can do by far, So it would just be him appearing as a Fade. No I think  the DO would make himself a body resembling human form if he even took a body, there's nothing to say he couldn't just be a being out of sight but there.

Fade's are pretty much superior to humans in every way.

So as I'm going through yet another reread, I've been thinking a lot about TG (like most of us) and in what form the DO will manifest himself. I haven't seen this discussed yet in the past year or two, so if i'm duplicating a past post, my appologies

 

If you think about SH's meeting in The Path of Daggers when he first meets Grandy while Moggy and Lanfear "resurrected" are there, I can't help but think that he's more than just the voice of the DO in Randland. Here's were i'm going with this:

 

He claims that he's the "Hand of the Great Lord" and there is a very familiar way in which he talks to Grandy- as if he's known her for a very long time.

 

We know that the Dark one is already starting to break free and his "Hand" is already touching events in the World. We have actually seen this wording used by both the sides of the light and the sides of the Dark. Its very interesting that that's the name that SH is given by the DO.

 

Although SH appears to be a Fade, he's certainly not one- he's much much more than that and has powers that no other Lurk has ever had

 

Aginor believed that Myrdrall were of "Their World, but also others" which could explain how the DO might have somehow imparted a very very small part of himself and his powers into him

 

Size doesn't matter. Everyone that i've seen post about TG has been wondering about what form the DO will take and whether or not he'll even be a human entity. We know that the final battle will not be fought on a physical level- rather one of power, etc. Therefore, for him to chose to embody SH would not be out of the question

 

Finally, if in fact SH is the "Hand of the Great Lord" that has already started touching the World, it only makes sense to me that as he continues to break out of his prison that SH would become stronger and more fully a part of the DO until the DO fully takes over his body

 

That's what i've come up with so far. Have at it!!!

He did say in book 11 or something "Did you think that 'Hand of the Dark' was just a name?" And then Alviarin thinks of him as the Great Lord in the body of a Fade.

[Majsju]

According to RJ, the DO projects a shawowy form of Itself into SH, so in that sense SH is the physical manifestation of the DO, though much less powerful.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Since we know that the Nae'blis is the Servant of the Great Lord on earth and SH appears to be on a completely different level than Moridin, what does that make SH?

UNQUOTE

 

Hmm. What makes you think they are on a different level? As far as I can tell they work together. Moridin gives the Chosen a task, if they fail Shaidar steps in to make them regret it.

 

I really cant shake off the feeling that Moridin are linked in some way. I have had this discussion many times on here. It was mentioned by RJ that its as if the Dark One can put a shadowy form of himself into Shaidar Haran. What is Shaidar Haran like when he hasnt got the Dark Ones essence in him? There is something odd about Moridin and Shaidars relationship that I cant ignore. The incedent when Shaidar is with one of the Forsaken, it tells them to close their eyes, and when they open their eyes they were somewhere else, and Moridin was there. Shaidar had gone. Something fishy goin on there I think

[Majsju]

There is no "when he has not the Dark Ones essence in him", it is always there.

 

SH = An enhanced myrdrsaal that is a body for the DO to projec t a shadowy form of itself into.

 

Moridin = A recycled forsaken, ie 100% human.

 

There is no connection other than that they are working together. Moridin does not run into a phone booth, rips his shirt to reveal SH hiding beneath.

[Guest Dreadlord]

I accept-although begrudgingly-that maybe Shaidar isnt an alter ego Moridin created, but I still think there is something amiss there. There is a connection beyond them working with each other I think

[Majsju]

SH: Moridin, I am your father!

 

Moridin: Nooooooo!!!

 

Maybe you are on to something ;D

[Bob T Dwarf]

Do they work together?

 

Rand is in possession of at least two seals and other important artifacts.  Ishy/Moridin wants all of those things and has been totally unsuccessful in securing any of them.  Graendal wants those things and has been equally stymied.  Demandred, ditto.  Likewise the others.  That seems to be a big part of the basis for why the official Dark emphasis throughout has been to keep Rand alive so they can capture and turn him.

 

Shaidar Haran's priority, however, is simply killing Rand.  And, sooner than humanly possible.

 

So, SH and Moridin have fundamentally different goals.

[Majsju]

 

 

Shaidar Haran's priority, however, is simply killing Rand.  And, sooner than humanly possible.

 

 

 

Oh really? Care to provide a quote where SH says any such thing?

[Bob T Dwarf]

TDR - Prologue -

"If you wish to see it so."  The Myrddraal laughed, a sound that made Carridin's bones shiver.  "Still, I will know why you are here instead of on Almoth Plain."

 

"I ... I was commanded here by word of the Lord Captain Commander."

 

The Myrddraal grated, "Your Lord Captain Commander's words are dung!  You were  commanded to find the human called Rand Al'Thor and kill him.  That before all else.  Above all else!  Why are you not obeying?"

 

...

 

"I don't understand.  Why is it suddenly so important to kill him?  I thought the Great Lord of the Dark meant to use him."

 

"You question me?  I should take your tongue.  It is not your part to question.  Or to understand.  It is your part to obey!  You will give dogs lessons in obedience.  Do you understand that?  Heel, dog, and obey your master."

 

...

 

"Hear me human.  You will find this youth and kill him as quickly as possible.  Do not think you can dissemble.  There are others of your children who will tell me if you turn aside in your purpose.  But I will give you this to encourage you.  If this Rand al'Thor is not dead in a month, I will take one of your blood.  A son, a daughter, a sister, an uncle.  You will not know who until the chosen has died screaming.  If he lives another month, I will take another.  And then another, and another.  And when there is no one of your blood living except yourself, if he still lives, I will take you to Shayul Ghul itself."  It smiled.  "You will be years in the dying, human.  Do you understand me, now?"

 

And, that is exactly what had happened when we next see Carridin.  Family members had been dying one per month.  All that SH promised was delivered - up until the time Moridin found out what Carridin was up to, and gave him to the "Lady Shiane" to kill.  She drowned him in brandy.

[Majsju]

1. That is not the same SH we see walking around now. The current SH could take out Rand without breaking a sweat. The lack of even an attempt to do so kinda speaks strongly against considering killing Rand a "priority".

2. That was a long time ago, we have seen the Shadows plans change over and over again. The DO did not exactly order Demandred to kill Rand in LOC, quite the contrary. And since the DO projects a shadowy form of Itself into SH, claiming that SH would have an agenda that contradicts the DOs wishes is quite a stretch, to put it mildly.

[Bob T Dwarf]

No.

 

The SH we see at the DF soiree in TGH is not the one we know today.  That was SH 0.5b. The one in TDR is the full featured SH 1.0 we know today.  TDR is when the new improved stronger, faster, better SH was formally introduced.

 

The killing of Carridin's relatives continued unabated at least until Carridin's death in TPoD.  Long after Moridin became active.

 

Shaidar Haran's agenda hasn't changed.  Neither has Moridin's.  They are not working to the same goal.

[Bob T Dwarf]

In fact -

 

If you examine Carridin's entire storyline, it is apparent that his only reason for existence is to demonstrate the fundamental conflict that exists among the DO's forces.  He never really accomplishes anything useful.  He appears at the soiree.  Then disappears entirely until SH's visit.  Appears briefly, and to little real purpose in Ebou Dar.  Then dies ignominiously in "Lady Shiane's" basement.

 

Now, Maj, it's your turn.  Please supply a quote that demonstrates any change of mind, heart or purpose for Shaidar Haran.

[Majsju]

The SH we see at the DF soiree in TGH is not the one we know today.  That was SH 0.5b. The one in TDR is the full featured SH 1.0 we know today.  TDR is when the new improved stronger, faster, better SH was formally introduced.

 

Seems like RJ does not share your interpretation...

 

Week 23 Question: Was the Fade who visited Jaichim Carridin in the Prologue of The Dragon Reborn an early version of Shaidar Haran? Its response that it likes to keep an eye on 'all who serve me' and its apparent sense of humour are behaviour atypical of a Fade.

 

Robert Jordan Answers: I was wondering who would spot that. Shadar Haran Version 0.5! The Dark One doesn't get it spot on the first time every time.

 

Shaidar Haran's agenda hasn't changed.  Neither has Moridin's.  They are not working to the same goal.

 

Show a single example of the final version of SH either acting directly, or giving an order that shows its priority is to kill Rand.

 

Now, Maj, it's your turn.  Please supply a quote that demonstrates any change of mind, heart or purpose for Shaidar Haran.

 

An absolute lack of giving any orders or taking any actions aimed at killing Rand. An absolute lack of involvment in any attempts to kill rand the Shadow has made since LOC, when the DO ordered hands off Rand.

 

The final version of SH appears in LOC. That means 6 books without SH being involved in a single attempt to kill Rand. Roughly 6 months in the books, where the shadow has known the whereabouts of Rand for the most part. And nothing. Not even Osan'gar,who is sent by SH to the Black Tower recieves any orders to kill Rand. Instead Osan'gar helps save Rands life.

Meanwhile, we have Moridin saving Rands life in Shadar Logoth, using TP which means the DO knew what he was up to. If Moridin violated any orders because killing rand was supposed to be a priority, the DO has a weird sense of what is appropriate punishment, since Moridin becomes Nae'blis, and the only forsaken allowed to use TP.

 

It is quite obvious to the most casual observer that the new version of SH in no way sees killing rand as a priority.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Shaidar and Moridin seem to be working together to keep the Chosen and other Darkfriends in line. Of course Moridin will have other goals but most of the times we see Shaidar all he is doing is punishing the Forsaken.

 

And I dont remember Shaidar Haran even mentioning Rands name, let alone making him a priority of any sort.

 

That being said though, it is clear that Shaidar Haran has its own individuality to a point. It isnt simply an extension of the Dark One. I remember it feeling the need to be rid of the weakness it feels when away from Shayol Ghul. It seems like it has its own free will to a point, so maybe it might have its own goals although that doesnt mean I think its goal is killing Rand.

[Majsju]

That being said though, it is clear that Shaidar Haran has its own individuality to a point. It isnt simply an extension of the Dark One. I remember it feeling the need to be rid of the weakness it feels when away from Shayol Ghul. It seems like it has its own free will to a point, so maybe it might have its own goals although that doesnt mean I think its goal is killing Rand.

 

Removing that particular weakness would be very much in the DOs interest, so I do not see it as any sign of SH having a personality separate from what the DO projects into it. SH is the DOs possibility to move around in the world, so ensuring maximum mobility is obviously very much in the DOs interest.

 

When Moghedien has been sufficiently punished, SH hands her, and the mindtrap over to Moridin. When SH joins Cyndane and Moghedien in their visit to Graendal, he orders her to go visit Moridin. When Moridin orders all forsaken to stop the Cleansing, SH is the one carrying out Mesaanas punishment. They are very much working together.

[Bob T Dwarf]

We're still waiting for the quote from the books where Shaidar Haran indicates that he's changed his mind about killing Rand.

 

Unless you can find one, he has to remain as written in TDR, not as you privately imagine him.

[Majsju]

::)

 

Action speaks louder than words...

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

We're still waiting for the quote from the books where Shaidar Haran indicates that he's changed his mind about killing Rand

UNQUOTE

 

We're still waiting for the quote where Shaidar gives Rand a single hought, or any hint of him being involved in a plot not relating to the Shadows minions.

[Quiksilver]

I believe we've already had a glimpse of what the Dark One's true form is. The taint on saidin.

 

It might be that the DO will become a personal battle that every person in Randland will have to contend with, much like the taint on the male channelers. They will all be torn between becoming good or evil. The trollocs will come, yes, the darkfriends will rise up, yes. The Dark one will also affect everybody on a psychological level, and fighting the last battle will not only be a battle in the physical sense, but also one of the mind.

[Guest Dreadlord]

No way. I would be way disapointed if it happened like that.

 

I dont even think it will be a physical fight. Maybe Rand will tap into his Ta'veren twist in the Pit of Doom where the Pattern seems to be weaker.

 

I cant see the Dark One reaching out to everyone when the Ta'veren Trio arrives on his doorstep. His full attention should be on them. If Rand wins because the Dark Ones attention is elsewhere I would put the books away.

[BlackveiledTaraboner]

I dont really have any precedent for this idea, just some random ideas as usual...

 

SH being the DO manifest in reality, physically fighting Rand.

At the same time, on the secondary plane that is the Bore/PoD the DO and Rand having a true source-fueled battle. Sort of a two layered battle, one mental one physical, one reality one T'A'R, or whatever version of it exists at Shayol Ghul?

 

 

[Majsju]

Problem with that is that SH fighting Rand would be like Tyson fighting a 12 year old. SH blocks channeling, and Rand is not exactly the swordsman he used to be. Add to that SH having some kind of "channeling" at its disposal.

 

Although, I do have my longstanding theory that SH and Rand will face off. SH toying with Rand, until Fain jumps out of the bushes, and stabs SH in the back.