The Dragon and the DO's Prison

[Valinthros]

I did a search for anything that pointed to this, and though I didnt go through all the threads, I didnt see anything.  Bouncing this around in my head, and have been for a while now:

 

What if the Dragon has to be present at 'TG' so that the DO can be freed?  What if the DO needs Rand to be there for the right conditions to be met so that he can be free?

 

A few things to take into consideration:

 

1.  The Creator made the DO's prison.  (This is an assumed fact.)

2.  The DO can break free.

3.  The bore was created by Humans.  The DO couldn't create the bore himself now could he?

4.  Why does the DO even use anyone if all he needs is to break the seals?  Why have the forsaken loose?  Why create chaos?  Why not sit back, have a henchman break the seals, and push that bore wide open.

 

Thinking about the above, it makes sense to me that the DO needs humanity to break free of his prison.  That being said, what if there are set conditions for his prison to be dissolved?  Like having the creator's champion destroy that very prison?  "Hey DO, tell ya what, if you can get my champion to open your prison I'll letcha out, mmk?"  Ironic.

 

Thoughts anyone?  ;)

[bjclinton]

We don't know a lot about what the conditions are that need to occur for the DO to break free in every age, but I like your theory. He has obviously been present every time in history that the DO has broken free other wise the pattern would already have been unraveled and remade, so it would certainly make sense.

 

We don't know how the bore has been sealed in other ages (i'm sure they don't use Aes Sedai marked Cuellander seals each go round), so I guess its pretty safe to assume that thats the case.

 

It would also explain the "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" debate that has made many of us wonder why the DO wanted Rand to survive until TG.

 

I'm interested in seeing what other people thing of this idea.

[Aztain]

I don't think so.  The DO has never said tha Rand must not be killed, for example in book nine Moridin told the darkfreind Asha'man to get the Choedan kal and kill him, or when he was clensing Saddin Osan'gar tried to kill him. It wouldn't make sense for the DO  to let the Forsaken kill Rand if it was the only way for him to be free. The DO would have made sure Rand was captured and sheilded  but kept alive untill he was free.

 

 

 

[MatrixM]

I don't think so.  The DO has never said tha Rand must not be killed, for example in book nine Moridin told the darkfreind Asha'man to get the Choedan kal and kill him, or when he was clensing Saddin Osan'gar tried to kill him. It wouldn't make sense for the DO  to let the Forsaken kill Rand if it was the only way for him to be free. The DO would have made sure Rand was captured and sheilded  but kept alive untill he was free.

I don't think he would let his henchmen know of his weaknesses (except maybe Moridin).

I did a search for anything that pointed to this, and though I didnt go through all the threads, I didnt see anything.  Bouncing this around in my head, and have been for a while now:

 

What if the Dragon has to be present at 'TG' so that the DO can be freed?  What if the DO needs Rand to be there for the right conditions to be met so that he can be free?

 

A few things to take into consideration:

 

1.  The Creator made the DO's prison.  (This is an assumed fact.)

2.  The DO can break free.

3.  The bore was created by Humans.  The DO couldn't create the bore himself now could he?

4.  Why does the DO even use anyone if all he needs is to break the seals?  Why have the forsaken loose?  Why create chaos?  Why not sit back, have a henchman break the seals, and push that bore wide open.

 

Thinking about the above, it makes sense to me that the DO needs humanity to break free of his prison.  That being said, what if there are set conditions for his prison to be dissolved?  Like having the creator's champion destroy that very prison?  "Hey DO, tell ya what, if you can get my champion to open your prison I'll letcha out, mmk?"  Ironic.

 

Thoughts anyone?  ;)

But remember, it's quite possible that the Dragon has turned to the dark in previous ages.

[Angel of Death]

I dont think he has. That would mean there was nothing to stop him and he would have destroyed the world, broken the wheel, blinded the serpent and all that stuff.

I think that comment was just another one of Ba'alzamon's insane ramblings.

[Aztain]

I don't think he would let his henchmen know of his weaknesses (except maybe Moridin).

 

Why not? It's the dark  one who gave them immortality and he can take it away. The Forsaken want the DO free so they can have their small share of the world for there kingdoms . If they killed the dragon the DO would just end up waiting for him to be reborn which would p.o the DO and he would torture whoever killed him for eternity

[Razor]

If Rand dies, why would the Dark one not rebirth him like the forsaken and turn him to the dark.

[Angel of Death]

Cos he will still be Rand, just a new shiny body. Look at the others that have been resurrected, they still seem to be very much themselves.

[Guest Dreadlord]

I cant see Rand being needed to break the Dark One free in that sense. I merely think that the Seals must break and as we know, that is already happening. If teh only way to break free was for Rand specifically to break the Seals I think there would have been more efforts to turn Rand other than Ishamaels attempts. The only reason the Dark One wants Rand on side is because Rand is the only one who can stop him, Ishamael wasnt trying to turn him so he'd break the Seals.

[Valinthros]

Posted by: Aztain

I don't think so.  The DO has never said tha Rand must not be killed, for example in book nine Moridin told the darkfreind Asha'man to get the Choedan kal and kill him, or when he was clensing Saddin Osan'gar tried to kill him. It wouldn't make sense for the DO  to let the Forsaken kill Rand if it was the only way for him to be free. The DO would have made sure Rand was captured and sheilded  but kept alive untill he was free.

 

True about the order to kill rand.  However, was this at the DO's order, or a fearful forsaken's order?  As of yet, I think the chances of getting Rand captured and controlled are pretty slim.  Due to the pattern's intervention, and the danger of face to face confrontations we've seen thus far with the forsaken.  Not to say that isnt a possibility, just not likely, someone's already tried the capture routine.

 

Posted by: MatrixM

But remember, it's quite possible that the Dragon has turned to the dark in previous ages.

 

Agreed.  We may never know if that's ever happened.  Yes, I know, from Rand's surety that it never has you could deduce that it never has.  Even though Ishy has been attributed to quite a bit of lies and general dissent, we cant say for sure that the Dragon has ever turned... or not.  ;)

 

Posted by: Aztain

Why not? It's the dark  one who gave them immortality and he can take it away. The Forsaken want the DO free so they can have their small share of the world for there kingdoms . If they killed the dragon the DO would just end up waiting for him to be reborn which would p.o the DO and he would torture whoever killed him for eternity

 

I dont think I'd ever let dangerous bloodhounds know my weakness, whether or not I only let them out on my order.  And even then, sometimes the bloodhounds we have here dont do as they are told.  I would think the DO would be a bit more intellegent than that.  Remember Lanfear speaking to Rand about taking the creator's place?  That would mean taking out the DO as well.

 

Posted by: bjclinton

We don't know a lot about what the conditions are that need to occur for the DO to break free in every age, but I like your theory. He has obviously been present every time in history that the DO has broken free other wise the pattern would already have been unraveled and remade, so it would certainly make sense.

 

Exactly.  We cant say for or against.

 

Posted by: bjclinton

I'm interested in seeing what other people thing of this idea.

 

Me too. :D

 

 

[Aztain]

Lanfear only said that because she knew he had the choedan kal, all the other Forsaken that they were destroyed until rand clensed saddin. Beside like I've already said the Forsaken are dependent on the DO  to live forever if he dies they will no longer have protection, same with the male forsaken the DO can retract his protection from insanity then they're screwed so Rand has really no importance to the DO eccept that he's the only one who will be able to defeat the DO

[Paviel]

Lanfear only said that because she knew he had the choedan kal

 

I assume you mean the access keys: The Choedan Kal are too big for anybody to "have"...

 

Just to clear things up: The Choedan Kal are the giant statues buried near Cairhien and on Tremalking. The access keys are the small, portable replicas of the Choedan Kal that allow channelers to use them safely.

[42Bonzo88]

    There have been alot of theories on why the forsaken haven't killed Rand, tried to kill Rand, tried to turn him, etc. There have also been numerous theories on why some forsaken do this and others have orders that sometimes contradict.

    This is my question and I hope that it goes along with this thread, but do any of the forsaken, or dark friends, have any guarantee on this eternal life, naeblis, rulers under the DO?

    Basically, if you are in league with evil and you lie, cheat, steal, murder, to get what your master wants, what's to say he/she won't take away what is offered to you?

Thoughts?

[MatrixM]

None, but it's better than dieing, in their opinion.

Lanfear only said that because she knew he had the choedan kal

 

I assume you mean the access keys: The Choedan Kal are too big for anybody to "have"...

 

Just to clear things up: The Choedan Kal are the giant statues buried near Cairhien and on Tremalking. The access keys are the small, portable replicas of the Choedan Kal that allow channelers to use them safely.

Apart from the fact that the one on Tramalking disappeared.

[Valinthros]

Lanfear only said that because she knew he had the choedan kal, all the other Forsaken that they were destroyed until rand clensed saddin. Beside like I've already said the Forsaken are dependent on the DO  to live forever if he dies they will no longer have protection, same with the male forsaken the DO can retract his protection from insanity then they're screwed so Rand has really no importance to the DO eccept that he's the only one who will be able to defeat the DO

 

Let's not forget that all of the forsaken have quite a bit of ambition.  Naeblis is a prime example.  And the DO seems to encourage it by even providing that 'position'.  There are promises yes, however if one crazy Forsaken finds out that the DO has a vulnerability... the ambition part might push them over the edge in thinking they can take the DO's place.  Thus are Lanfear's words.

 

Protection from insanity?  What insanity?  The taint is cleansed.

 

The theory is dependent upon the fact that the DO sent an order to keep Rand alive, and the idea that the purpose of that order may yet be revealed.  We dont know exactly why he did so, we can only speculate.

 

     There have been alot of theories on why the forsaken haven't killed Rand, tried to kill Rand, tried to turn him, etc. There have also been numerous theories on why some forsaken do this and others have orders that sometimes contradict.

     This is my question and I hope that it goes along with this thread, but do any of the forsaken, or dark friends, have any guarantee on this eternal life, naeblis, rulers under the DO?

     Basically, if you are in league with evil and you lie, cheat, steal, murder, to get what your master wants, what's to say he/she won't take away what is offered to you?

Thoughts?

 

Good question/point.  With the DO, there's no telling.  A being as maliscious as that...  Might be a good joke to take his most loyal servant and torture them for fun.  Reminds me of Semrihage. ;)

[Paviel]

Agreed.  We may never know if that's ever happened.  Yes, I know, from Rand's surety that it never has you could deduce that it never has.  Even though Ishy has been attributed to quite a bit of lies and general dissent, we cant say for sure that the Dragon has ever turned... or not.

 

Well, the Dragon Reborn has always been the one on whom the fate of the world depends, the only one who could fight the Dark One in the Third Age.

 

If the Dragon had ever been turned, the Dark One would have won. And the Dark One has never won...

[MatrixM]

Not necessarily. And why the Third Age? The Dark One is outside of time and so can strike when it most pleases him.