Bob T Dwarf - I found something - in reguards to stuff discussed on prev. post

[mabbott74]

So, I was reading KoD and I came across something that did not make much sense.

 

In the thread "Bashere's suspicious decision" we were all discussing the time frame issue.

 

In KoD, Bashere mentions about going to Ebou Dar with Loial.  At first I took this as when he went there to try to arrange the meeting with Tuon.  But after looking back, I could not come up with a reason why he would need to take Loial with him (enless he wanted it for his book, since Rand was being difficult giving info).

 

So, I thought that maybe during the 11 or 12 days of missing time, maybe they went to Ebou Dar for some reason?  I don't know, maybe I'm trying to see a circle when there is obviously a square in front of me.

[mabbott74]

Actually, now I'm pretty sure that they were there before, I just do not know what to make of it.

 

In KoD, Bashere says, "I always suspect a trap.  It isn't that. The High Lady Suroth still didn't want me or manfor to talk to anyone but her.  Not anyone.  Our servants were mutes, just as when we went to Ebou Dar with Loial."

 

So, either it took Bashere a couple of trips for him to get everything arranged, and Loial was with him on only one of those (maybe seeing the Ogier in uniform made him uneasy and did not want to return), or when Loial went, it was during that time frame.  That still seems kind of weak, because he would have went under some direction from Rand, or he would not have mentioned it.  I don't know, the more I think about it, the more questions I raise.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Wasn't it regarding the Waygates? I seem to remember Rand asking Loial if he would close them, and it would seem like a good idea to send someone Rand seems to trust with Loial to be sure of his protection. I think that would mean Loial and Bashere would need an Ashaman with them though, and I dont rememnber whether  or not they had one.

 

Bashere is a suspicious bloke in my opinion.

 

When Bashere threw that knife at Rand he did it to prove a point he was making. But it seemed very odd, abit too extreme. For a moment I thought Demandred, but then I remembered what RJ had said regarding us not seeing Demandred use an alter ego before book 10. Add that to Mins viewing about him, ("if he dies, or turns against you..." or something like that, and something about his past being shadowy?), and the time when he says to someone "Tell the man I spoke to earlier that I agree, but there will be more than we expected" (again, that might not be the exact wording but its been a while) and also the thing about going to Ebou Dar with Loial-which, if I am wrong about the Waygates, it could mean trouble for Rand???)-it all seems odd. I think Bashere may be a Darkfriend or he may have considered it. I wonder if Tenobia (or whatever the Queen of Saldaea is called) may be Forsaken in disguise.

 

All that is abit of a crazy chain of thought though so feel free to tear it apart.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

not quite sure exactly the part you were talking about...

 

but anyhow, ogier are highly respected and loial is VERY well-trusted by rand.  no reasonable leader would EVER send a single negotiator by himself in a situation like this, so why not send backup in the form of someone you trust and will be respected?

[Rasta Ashaman]

In KoD, Bashere mentions about going to Ebou Dar with Loial.  At first I took this as when he went there to try to arrange the meeting with Tuon.  But after looking back, I could not come up with a reason why he would need to take Loial with him (enless he wanted it for his book, since Rand was being difficult giving info).

 

Rand sent Bashere, Logain and Loial to Ebu Dar (in CoT) to negotiate a truce:

“I can’t fight the Shadow and the Seanchan at the same time. I am sending the three of you to arrange a truce with the Seanchan.”

 

Bashere and Logain seemed stunned into silence. Until they began to argue, one on top of the other. Loial just looked ready to faint.

 

And I think he sent Loial mostly because of the Seanchan Gardeners.

[Andrew the Great]

And I think he sent Loial mostly because of the Seanchan Gardeners.

 

Has Rand even seen the Gardeners at this point? I can't recall, but my first instinct is no.

[Luckers]

He hasn't, but he knows of them and specifically sent Loial because of the respect the Ogier are held in in KoD.

[mabbott74]

Ah! now I remember that, thanks for clearing that up.

[42Bonzo88]

    I think, Dreadlord, that Bashere is loyal to Rand and I'll sure look the idiot if we find out differently. But, the knife throwing incident looked to me like Bashere was trying to show Rand that he like Aes Sedai can still get killed by an arrow in the back no matter how powerful he becomes. Bashere still does not like Rand's use of the power, but he looks at it like any other soldier, that it is a weapon. Rand is using his sword skills with 5 other swordsmen, but he still needs to be wary and suspecting something that will come from anywhere.

[Luckers]

Actually his display was for the exact opposite purpose--this was just after Rand had fought five men with practice swords--Bashere was seeking to point out how stupid that is given that Rand can channel. He says stay fit and exercise, thats wise, but practicing against five men has no point and some degree of danger.

[aevogt]

"if he dies...or turns against you"

 

What if this ties in with the borderlanders in Andor.

 

They SAY they're looking for the Dragon Reborn.  They DO NOT SAY a whole lot else. 

 

Tenobia is with them.  She could order Bashere to gather his men and ride hard back to the Blight.  She's his ruler so at that point, playtime with the Dragon is over.  She could order the 50,000 men with her to take him into custody and have him summarily excecuted (along with all 8000 or so of his light horse that remain) if she so desired though Davram's head would likely suffice.

 

I don't see the four rulers coming together and leaving the Blight unattended solely to help Tenobia mete out preceived justice to her renegade uncle, but the bottom line is that we don't truly know what their motives are.  In their scene at the beginning of TPoD, they say an awful lot about what they're doing without really saying anything about what they're doing.

 

I guess my whole point is that whole situation, Davram, Tenobia and the BL army, is a fly in the Tarmon Gaidon ointment.

 

What if they're searching for the Dragon, but not to join him.

 

 

[42Bonzo88]

Thanks, Luckers. Forgot that part.  :-[ I've really got to read the books again, it's getting dim in here.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Sorry, mabbott, I somehow missed this whole topic before.

 

For the initial meeting with the Seanchan, Rand DID send, Bashere, Karldin, and Loial.  That was just for the preliminary meeting.  There needed to be subsequent meetings.

 

For instance, at the time that the Trollocs attacked the Manor, Bashere and Karldin were in Ebou Dar making the final arrangements for the meeting with Tuon/Anath/Semirhage.  Loial had just finished marrying Erith at the Manor, when he spotted the Tolloocs rushing in and sounded the alarm.

 

Given the 'dark' overtones Min saw in her viewing of Bashere, the actual timing of that Trolloc attack has always struck me as a little too coincidental.