Dream World Smackdown!

[Guest cwestervelt]

Jonn' date=' compare this thread, and the people claiming Perrin as the winner, with the people going on how much they hate Egwene in other threads. I think you might find a few similarities...[/quote']

 

Yeah huh. It is an extension of this rather irrational hatred of Egwene. What is strange though is that similar sentiments have been building up against Perrin because of his obsession with, of all things, protecting the ones he loves (Faile).

 

Sometimes it's just too stupid for me to stay quiet about. Not that I'm the brightest bulb in the socket, but please...A trained Dreamer of immense strength against an untrained one of moderate strength..Get a grip people. Some people really hate America, but it doesn't mean you can say that their armed forces would get defeated in an open battle against say, New Zealand's. New Zealand's rugby team would win easily against the United States' though.

 

Perrin's not a dreamer is he? I thought that wolves sort of half inhabited TAR, and since he is a wolf brother, he does, too.

 

J

 

I'd say he technically is. A Dreamer can enter tel aran rhiod at will and can control being there enough to keep relative control without losing concious will, which would make a normal person fade in and out of regular sleep and TAR dreaming. Perrin can do this and without the aid of a terangreal no less.

The fact that his ability stems from the fact that he is a wolfbrother makes no difference. A Dreamer is defined by his or her ability. The Wise Ones implied as much in their teaching of Egwene. Some of the strongest Dreamers can't even channel.

 

In Perrin's case, he's even stronger than most wolves when it comes to manipulating TAR. It's part of the reason he was able to drive off Slayer/Luc. That distinguishes him as a pretty talented Dreamer, but in no way up to the level of challenging the top tier Dreamers like the Aiel Wise Ones, Moghedien or even Egwene herself. His best bet if he ends up running into one of them in a fight within TAR, would probably be to run. He's strong enough to escape at least, I think, and maybe MAYBE pull off a surprise or two against someone who underestimates him. Otherwise, he isn't really well suited to be battling a trained Dreamwalker.

 

The abilitty to enter Tel'aran'rhiod at will and unaided does not make one a "Dreamer". Being a "Dreamer" means that you can have dreams that you can interpret to predict the future. The books are relatively clear that while the two are related, they are not the same thing. Even the Aiel Wise Ones weren't positive Egwene was a Dreamer and not just a Dreamwalker. Like Anaiya, they were open to the possibility that she was, but they treated it as two seperate Talents.

 

 

A Dreamer technically is both a Dreamwalker and a Dreamer.

I may be out of line in implying that Perrin can Dream as the wise ones and Egwene can. My memory is a little hazy as to whether Perrin ever had visions while in the Wolf Dream. Maybe someone else can clarify.

 

I will repeat. Dreaming and Dreamwalking are not the same. Dreaming is to see possible futures, Dreamwalking is entering Tel'aran'rhiod and other peoples dreams. Some people can do both, some can only do one or the other.

 

From the BWB Sidebar Page 214

 

Some Dreamers can dreamwalk, having the ability to enter Tel'aran'rhiod, as well as other people's dreams, but all Dreamers have visions within their dreams that go beyond anything they might see in either of these places...

 

Dreamwalking and the Wolf Dream are also somewhat different.

 

Sidebar Page 203

 

The entrance to the Wolf Dream is different for Wolfbrothers than for dreamwalkers.

[Guest Majsju]

Well, Perrin has had some visions in T'A'R, which would hint at him being a Dreamer of sorts as well. But not nearly as strong as Egwene.

 

It does seem that Perrins abilities comes as a secondary part of him being a wolfbrother, whereas Egwene is the real deal.

[Jonn]

I will repeat. Dreaming and Dreamwalking are not the same. Dreaming is to see possible futures, Dreamwalking is entering Tel'aran'rhiod and other peoples dreams. Some people can do both, some can only do one or the other.

 

From the BWB Sidebar Page 214

 

Some Dreamers can dreamwalk, having the ability to enter Tel'aran'rhiod, as well as other people's dreams, but all Dreamers have visions within their dreams that go beyond anything they might see in either of these places...

 

Dreamwalking and the Wolf Dream are also somewhat different.

 

Sidebar Page 203

 

The entrance to the Wolf Dream is different for Wolfbrothers than for dreamwalkers.

 

Wait a minute...I always thought that Dreamers and Tel'aran'rhiod were connected.

I got the idea that Dreamers have to have the discpline to interpret their true dreams, remembering them and recognizing them would be the first step. I don't think you could do that without the additional gifts of Dreamwalking.

 

Without the ability to walk in Dreams, a Dreamer would be about as useful as Elaida, who usually blanks out whe she has a Foretelling. Who is to say that such a Dreamer would even remember a part of their true dreams or could even tell them from normal ones?

 

I always assumed a Dreamer had to be a Dreamwalker as well, is what I'm saying, not necessarily the other way around though.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I will repeat. Dreaming and Dreamwalking are not the same. Dreaming is to see possible futures' date=' Dreamwalking is entering Tel'aran'rhiod and other peoples dreams. Some people can do both, some can only do one or the other.

 

From the BWB Sidebar Page 214

 

Some Dreamers can dreamwalk, having the ability to enter Tel'aran'rhiod, as well as other people's dreams, but all Dreamers have visions within their dreams that go beyond anything they might see in either of these places...

 

Dreamwalking and the Wolf Dream are also somewhat different.

 

Sidebar Page 203

 

The entrance to the Wolf Dream is different for Wolfbrothers than for dreamwalkers.

 

Wait a minute...I always thought that Dreamers and Tel'aran'rhiod were connected.

I got the idea that Dreamers have to have the discpline to interpret their true dreams, remembering them and recognizing them would be the first step. I don't think you could do that without the additional gifts of Dreamwalking.

 

Without the ability to walk in Dreams, a Dreamer would be about as useful as Elaida, who usually blanks out whe she has a Foretelling. Who is to say that such a Dreamer would even remember a part of their true dreams or could even tell them from normal ones?

 

I always assumed a Dreamer had to be a Dreamwalker as well, is what I'm saying, not necessarily the other way around though.

 

It's rather confusing isn't it? Especially when many of the usual references use the two terms interchangeably.

 

I've located the passage that shows the Aiel Wise Ones indicated to Egwene that there is a seperation. It is in Lord of Chaos, on page 263. At this point, there is no question of Egwene being a Dreamwalker. Combined with the BWB quote above, it would seem you can be a Dreamwalker and not be a Dreamer, and you can Dreamer and not a Dreamwalker. My next question, is which of the Aiel Dreamwalkers have also been revealed as Dreamers? You don't need to channel to Dreamwalk, but what about to Dream?

 

Frantically Egwene fumbled for another. Usually she had a slew of questions, but the events of the night had left her with just that one. IF she let it remain at that, they might start wondering whether it had come because she had sneaked off to spy on someone's dream. Another question. Not about her own odd dreams. Some of them probably had meaning, if she could ferret it out. Anaiya claimed Egwene was a Dreamer, able to foretell the course of future events, and these three women thought it might be so, but they said she had to learn from within.

 

Elaida does not blank out when she Foretells and she remembers every word. She just doesn't always tell anyone else. Nicola is the one that blanks out and remembers nothing.

 

According to the BWB, a Dream actually is not as reliable as a Foretelling. Apparently a Dream shows a possible future, while a Foretelling shows definite future.

 

In case this whole thing isn't confused enough, Perrin's "windows" that he sees in Tel'aran'rhiod are something different again. I can't remember if Egwene gets them too, but they are not the Dreams of her Dreamer persona.

 

Addition: Jonn, you asked "Who is to say that such a Dreamer would even remember a part of their true dreams or could even tell them from normal ones?"

 

The ability to do that is what makes the person a true Dreamer. If they can't interpret the difference, they don't count.

[Jonn]

Hmm, that's very intriguing. Good work on the backup research Cwest.

You make a good point.

[Inara]

doesnt nicola fortell something and remember it on the way to the white tower?

or did alivia hear her and tell her about it..

[Guest cwestervelt]

Arienna or whatever the Brigitte wanna be's usually the one that "hear's" Nicola's foretellings. One of the books makes a note that since Nicola never remembers them, and Arienna is usually the only witness, there is some question about the validity. I'll post a quote later should I find the passage.

[Inara]

yeah, arienna...sorry