Forsaken meeting in KOD

[rd2000]

KOD spoilers from hereon.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When the Forsaken meet in Tel, we are seeing the meeting from Aran'Gar's/Halima's perspective. When Moridin joins the meeting and announces that someone pretending to be Sammael or Sammael himself has sent thousands of Trollocs into the ways, we know that will eventually be the attack on Rand and co. later in the book. Moridin also commands all the Forsaken there not to attempt any attacks on Rand but to instead try to kill Mat and Perrin.

The last sentence in the chapter implies that Halima has an attack on Rand impending, and due to her latest whereabouts, it seems likely it will come from the Rebel Aes Sedai camp.

 

As another note of interest, when Moridin shows the Forsaken images of Mat and Perrin, Mesaana says that they might already be dead had he shown them what they looked like before. This implies that Mesaana has met one or both of them and had the opportunity to kill them. This might help in the identification of Mesaana as neither has been around a lot of Aes Sedai (as most seem to believe Mesaana is masquerading as Aes Sedai at the moment)

[Guest Winespring Brother]

Actually, it was Semirhage who said that at the meeting, and she of course was in contact with Mat as Annath, Tuon's truth speaker, but probably didn't realise who he was.

[rd2000]

oops!, right you are. That was Semi. Well, we know Semi was Anath, and Anath met Mat when Tuon did. So that explains her words to Moridin.

[Guest Winespring Brother]

I know we already discussed this, but who do you think it was that sent that attack on Rand?

 

Despite what everyone says I still think it was Fain. Not only did he have the means to locate Rand and the means to impersonate a Forsaken, he is also the only person we know of who has made some kind of agreement with Machin Shin, as wold be need to move 10s of thousands of trollocs through the ways.

[Guest Majsju]

It's very unlikely that Fain sent the attack. He does not have the means to impersonate the forsaken, since he lacks the mark that all forsaken has, the mark that all shadowspawn can sense and are compelled to obey.

 

Fain can't make thousands of trollocs obey him. He could do it with a small group, where he could be close enough to install fear in them. But if he tried that with thousands? He's be in the cookpot before he could say Boo!

[Jedimuppet]

It's very unlikely that Fain sent the attack. He does not have the means to impersonate the forsaken' date=' since he lacks the mark that all forsaken has, the mark that all shadowspawn can sense and are compelled to obey.

 

Fain can't make thousands of trollocs obey him. He could do it with a small group, where he could be close enough to install fear in them. But if he tried that with thousands? He's be in the cookpot before he could say Boo![/quote']

 

I don't know. I always wondered how he compelled them to do his will...I mean he even tortured a fade...If he could compel enough fades, he could make thousands of trollocs do his bidding.

J

[rd2000]

I thought there was already a topic on "who sent the Trollocs through the Ways?"

 

I posted this topic more or less to start discussion on what attack Aran'Gar was planning on Rand.

 

It it diverges over to the Trollocs from the Ways, so be it, I guess.......

[Guest Winespring Brother]

Sorry RD, I always get side tracked. I just don't have a clue what Arangar was planning, and to be honest, now that she has fled the Rebel camp, I doubt we will ever know.

[Jedimuppet]

I thought there was already a topic on "who sent the Trollocs through the Ways?"

 

I posted this topic more or less to start discussion on what attack Aran'Gar was planning on Rand.

 

It it diverges over to the Trollocs from the Ways' date=' so be it, I guess.......[/quote']

 

I think it may have been foiled by Halima fleeing. I thought it probably had something to do with the hall debating what to do about the Asha'Man.

J

[bcxanth]

Yeah, I think that whatever she was planning, that plan is done and over with. More then likely she expected that whoever came to the camp from the BT would be someone who was a DF and would have orders to not reveal her ability to channel. But the arrival of these guys she has no control over left her with no choice but to take off.

[rd2000]

It just seems unlikely to me that RJ would introduce some plot in the beginning of KoD and squash it later in the same book. Aran'Gar was manipulating Egwene through dreams. That was why she slept in her tent. She even mentions in her POV that she had to be near someone to find their dreams. Everyone in the Rebel camp knew Egwene was a Dreamer. Maybe Aran'Gar introduced Egwene to a false vision or two so she would do something at the right moment? Or believe something about the future and assist it happenning while thinking that future event would be good for the Light, but in reality it's good for the dark?

[bcxanth]

I suppose that could be possible, but I'm not sure. Mainly because Egwene has stated that the Dreams she has feel different from her normal dreams. That she just automatically knows they are true Dreams and she can remember them in perfect detail and knows they mean something, even if she doesn't know what they mean. Would A'G really be able to duplicate that effect? Obviously she could make Egwene have the dreams, but could she really make them fool Egwene's talent into accepting them as Dreams? I'm just not sure.

[Jedimuppet]

I suppose that could be possible' date=' but I'm not sure. Mainly because Egwene has stated that the Dreams she has feel different from her normal dreams. That she just automatically knows they are true Dreams and she can remember them in perfect detail and knows they mean something, even if she doesn't know what they mean. Would A'G really be able to duplicate that effect? Obviously she could make Egwene have the dreams, but could she really make them fool Egwene's talent into accepting them as Dreams? I'm just not sure.[/quote']

 

Egwene didn't know that Halima was causing her dreams, but she was able to tell they weren't true dreams. They just kept her on edge, and suggestible.

J

[rd2000]

Maybe Aran'Gar couldn't make Egwene believe anything, we don't know. However, Aran'Gar did place herself in Egwene's tent. Whether that was to spy on her dreams or spy and manipulate we don't know. But she went to a lot of trouble and placed herself in a lot of danger to accomplish this. She is very, very ambitious. We know this because she assumes she will destroy Moridin. Thus far, Aran'Gar has been the most competent of the Forsaken in my opinion, and we have not even begun to see the full effect of her actions and plans.

[Guest Winespring Brother]

You think? i would have to disagree. Not only was Balthamel killed by the Green Man (a pretty big mess up if you ask me), as Arangar he has lost his charge, been discovered, and actually failed to do anything significant other than murder a few Aes Sedai, which itself was aimed at causing suspision between Aes Sedai and Ashman, yet we now have allainces running between the two groups, so even that failed.

 

If you wan't to take a look at a smart Forsaken, look at Demandred. Who knows how much of the chaos was caused by him?!

[rd2000]

That's the problem, WHO KNOWS?

[bcxanth]

I agree that Halima/Aran'Gar was trying to make Egwene malleable to her pressures. I also agree that the dreams were a part of that. My point was just that her induced dreams wouldn't be able to fool Egwene into thinking they were true prophetic Dreams.

 

I've always felt that A'G was using some mile form of compulsion (perhaps the only form he-she knew?) on Eg during their tantric head massage sessions. I think that was her true tool for manipulating Eg. The dreams were just a means to keep her off balance mentally.

 

Also it seems that they were also keeping Eg from having real prophetic Dreams. I seem to remember some reference in CoT to Eg having that dream about the Seanchan attacking the WT and that it was the first dream she'd had that she could clearly remember in some time.

[Luckers]

There is some evidence that compulsion was included in what Aran'gar did to Egwene... her symptoms match very closely with those of Morgase, but to a much weaker extent.

 

Nevertheless we don know that she was messing with Egwenes dreams, and that the weakness of her ability with tel'aran'rhiod meant the best she could do was stop egwene dreaming. Therefore false prophecies seem unlikely. Egwene was much stronger then Aran'gar in the dream, and mostly she wasn't dreaming at all, but simply waking up with the feeling of being chased, which is more like an effect of compulsion then an attempt to insert a fake dream.

 

Whether that was to spy on her dreams or spy and manipulate we don't know.

 

We sort of do. Aran'gar intimates that he ability is not strong. She needed to be sleeping in the tent to affect Egwenes dreams, its why she can't reach out to her now she's in Tar Valon.

 

She is very, very ambitious. We know this because she assumes she will destroy Moridin. Thus far, Aran'Gar has been the most competent of the Forsaken in my opinion, and we have not even begun to see the full effect of her actions and plans.

 

All the Forsaken assume that at one point or another. I think she was being played by Graendal.

[rd2000]

I got the impression that Graendal was semi-afraid of Aran'Gar. Maybe it was just the fact that Graendal lost her allies and is now alone while Mesaana/Demandred/(and Semihrage at that time) still had their team more or less together. But Graendal's attitude towards Sammael was a lot frostier than it was towards Aran'Gar, and she thought Sammael was going to be Nae'Blis before he got himself killed.

[Graendals favourite]

The Graendal-controls-the-gholam-now theory gets more wings. It can't have been Semirhage. I wonder if the gholam take some sort of a ter'angreal to force them to your will. In that event Graendal might have filched it from Sammael's rooms.

 

I seem to remember the gholam was keeping an eye on Mat, but was rather trying to push Mat out of Ebou Dar, aside from assisting in getting Noal to Mat's side. I've reread, and I'm convinced Noal is compelled. He will always want to stay near Mat, and go reporting any news. Dark but blue eyes is something that might command him to do something. The gholam appeared on their trail after that KoD meeting, again.

 

 

But Graendal has an ally in Moridin now.

[rd2000]

The Gholam told Mat "HE wants you dead almost as much as her" or something to that effect. I got the strong impression that the Gholam was taking orders from a male.

[Graendals favourite]

But wasn't that in aCoS, when Sammael was still in control of the gholam.

[rd2000]

True, I assumed that the Gholam had a personal interest in it now, didn't have a current master, and just wanted a piece of Mat real, real bad.

[Luckers]

I got the impression that Graendal was semi-afraid of Aran'Gar.

 

Graendal is brilliant at letting those she is manipulating think they are scaring her. Look at the way she originally handled Sammael. He thought he was so smart manipulating her, and then its revealed she knew perfectly well what he was doing. What Graendal seems and what she is is never the same. It's why she's my favorite Forsaken. I mean Semirhage has been close, since that scene where you find out what happened to the Seanchan... but still, Graendal.

[rd2000]

I got the impression that Graendal was semi-afraid of Aran'Gar.

 

Graendal is brilliant at letting those she is manipulating think they are scaring her. Look at the way she originally handled Sammael. He thought he was so smart manipulating her' date=' and then its revealed she knew perfectly well what he was doing. What Graendal seems and what she is is never the same. It's why she's my favorite Forsaken. I mean Semirhage has been close, since that scene where you find out what happened to the Seanchan... but still, Graendal.[/quote']

 

I guess I thought Graendal was a "wear your emotions on your sleeve for all to see" kind of person from the episode when she and Sammael visited the Shaido and gave Sevanna and co. the "fool boxes". Moridin's POV indicated she was a lit fuse about to go off.