Polygamy among the Aiel

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

I know this has been done before, but it all got a bit intense. The original thread also got moved. Apologies if anyone gets upset at seeing this again.

 

It would seem to me that the Aiel practice of polygamy is a sensible way to go about things. Theirs is a very warlike society, with large numbers of men, and a smaller number of women, seeming to be constantly engaged in raids/warfare.

 

Now, and this is a bit of speculation on my part, one would expect that, due to the constant warfare and the large proportion of men involved, there would be a larger proportion of women to men than you'd normally expect.

 

Given the above (feel free to pull it apart if you want), it would seem practical for men to have more than one wife -- More babies, ensures that the majority of women have the opportunity to reproduce. -- And yes, I'm viewing it clinically here.

 

In addition, the tribal nature of their society might well lend itself to alliances through wedlock. Maybe.

 

Any thoughts?

 

I'm aware all of the above is open to attack, for example, the fact that the majority of the Aiel we see are the fighting variety, that we never really get a picture of domestic life and that not all the Aiel took a wander over the mountains.

 

Please take your religious/sexual orientation hat off as you enter, if it's possible I'd like to avoid the free-for-all that happened last time. That last line isn't meant to offend.

[trakand_01]

I partially agree - it would be 'expected' that there would be higher proportions of women to men, but we should consider a few things.

 

1. They are aiel. They are very good at fighting and for the last 20 years havent been involved in any major external battles (not including inter-clan feuds).

 

2. The maidens are a large part of the Aiel, and I would imagine a goodly proportion of the 'women' in the Aiel society either are, have been or will be Maidens at some part in their lives (I'm not suggesting for a moment that this figure is 100% though, but I would think perhaps 50 or 60%.)

 

Don't the maidens have to give up being a maiden if they have a child? I think that was what made Rand's mother special, wasnt it? Also i think in the earlier books when we went to their hold in the Waste, to the massive indoor-cavern-city that they had going on (can't remember the name) there were many women who were not Maidens.

 

I think you are right with the birth rate philosophy; in a society where the men are likely to be killed in battle, it makes sense for them to impregnate as many women as possible, in order to ensure their genes are passed on and the civilisation continues.

 

However I think being able to marry more than one woman at a time is a sensible option anyway, if all parties agree, so long as it is not the ONLY way; so long as monogamous relationships can also exist. Although I would hate to be cheated on by my partner, I do genuinely believe that just as some people are born gay, straight or bisexual (I also believe that it is possible to be born without a sexuality, where you find no particular sex appealing), it is likely that we can be born to lean towards monogamism, and polygamism. If you were married to a polygamous man, surely it would be better to have him also marry the other woman he wants and you to share him equally, than it all to happen behind your back and cause disgrace.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

They are aiel. They are very good at fighting and for the last 20 years havent been involved in any major external battles (not including inter-clan feuds).

 

I agree, to a certain extent. But, we don't know how many die in combat. Plus, I'd argue that your skill in combat doesn't mean that fewer people die, given that they're all hard as nails. Two soldiers fight, one dies, two blademasters fight, one dies.

 

The maidens are a large part of the Aiel, and I would imagine a goodly proportion of the 'women' in the Aiel society either are, have been or will be Maidens at some part in their lives (I'm not suggesting for a moment that this figure is 100% though, but I would think perhaps 50 or 60%.)

 

Granted, there are a lot of Maidens. I'd argue that, given the period that Randland seems to be late medieval, when a lot of your women go off to fight in the prime of their life, that you'll have problems with the birth rate, due to the natural decline in the fertility of older women, i.e. when they hang up their spear. But again, I'd agree that many women won't have been Maidens, or will have quit after a short time for whatever reason.

 

As for monogamy, I agree entirely.

 

When Gaul is talking about marrying either Bain or Chiad (can't remember which) he's annoyed/worried at the prospect of having to marry both of them. I can't remember a quote, but, I always assumed that he could marry just one, if that were doable. I'd suggest that that means that it's ok by the Aiel to have a monogamous relationship. Not sure though.

 

Another thought, if water is so rare in the Waste, can we assume that they have a problem producing anough food? I mean, it looks like they can sustain current levels. Any potential inability to feed people might mean that the population isn't as huge as you might think. Granted, there are alot of Aiel, but then the Waste is huge. So if you're part of a war-like society with a general disdain for the fear of death, and you've a whole host of ways to die just walking in the countryside, I think getting men to do get busy would be high on your agenda.

 

Perhaps the instances we hear about of Maidens "forcing" their peers to get married highlights this?

[Majsju]

When Gaul is talking about marrying either Bain or Chiad (can't remember which) he's annoyed/worried at the prospect of having to marry both of them. I can't remember a quote, but, I always assumed that he could marry just one, if that were doable. I'd suggest that that means that it's ok by the Aiel to have a monogamous relationship. Not sure though.

 

That Gaul can not marry only Chiad is not because of Aiel culture frowning upon monogamous relations, but because Chiad and Bain are first-sisters, and none of them would leave the other.

What complicates matters is that Gauls and Bains clans are in a blood feud with eachother.

[trakand_01]

Really? Good job Rand fancies Elayne and Aviendha then or he might have found himself with an unwanted 3rd wife!

 

I think that they can have monogamous relationships, I seem to remember one of the wise ones... the one beginning with M, the pregnant one (in book 9) wanting to lay a wreath at... Rhuarc's (?) feet, and he was already married to one of the other Wise Ones, which meant that up until that time, his first marriage had been a monogamous relationship.

 

Each to their own at the end of the day. I hope to my toenails that my partner never says he wants to dally about, but if he did and it was genuine, I would have to accept that we all are different, and have different sexualities.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

I think that they can have monogamous relationships, I seem to remember one of the wise ones... the one beginning with M, the pregnant one (in book 9) wanting to lay a wreath at... Rhuarc's (?) feet, and he was already married to one of the other Wise Ones, which meant that up until that time, his first marriage had been a monogamous relationship.

 

I'm fairly certain they can, Majsju seems to as well.

 

If I remember, didn't Melaine (?) sort it all out with Rhuarc's first wife before it happened? I think it was just presented as a fait a complete (sp.).

 

Given that women own all the property in Aiel society, it all adds up to them having pretty wide-spread social powers. More advanced than that of the Wetlands in most cases?

[trakand_01]

The Matriarchal theme is something which is very heavy in the books. We start off with Alsbet Luhhan and Perrin's extremely fond thoughts of her; it is stated that she is more formiddable than Harral.

 

Then we meet Moiraine who, as AS is the authority between herself and Lan and for a while we are completely within her 'rule'.

 

Then we meet Morgase, Queen of a powerful nation, and her daughter Elayne who will (probably) succeed her.

 

The Amyrlin Seat - probably the most powerful and influential person in the world save for Rand and maybe the Empress of the Seanchan.

 

Tylin - her treatment of Mat not withstanding, and granted her rule stretches only a few day's ride from the city but she is a strong matriarch.

 

the Aiel. although the men may run the army, the women (roof mistresses, Wise Ones) very much run the society.

 

The Seanchan - I am led to believe that the Blood is mainly women, including Tuon.

 

The Atha'an Miere - the Wavemistress and the Windfinders and the 'Mistress' of the Ships are all women.

 

The Maidens - although they are only a faction of the Aiel, they certainly know how to run Rand around. Sulin, Nandera and Edarra are regularly stated as 'mothering' him.

 

Faile and her Mother - much as Perrin thinks he is gaining control over Faile, IMO she will always hold the power in the relationship, as her mother (Deira?) does with Bashere.

 

I am interested by this. I wonder if it is simply a reflection on RJ's life, if his mother was the prominant figure in his childhood, followed by his (very clear) devotion to Harriet, or if it is something which has been put in to the story for a reason, maybe to balance out the fact that Rand, Mat, Perrin, the Asha'Man and the DO are men.

 

It would be interesting to see how much of the salvation of the world - although Rand is to be the 'people's martyr' - lies in the hands of women in terms of them being the ones to prepare Rand, to guide him and everyone else in the right direction. Perhaps even ultimately to play parts in TG themselves. I imagine that Verin will appear with the Horn at the crucial time, Moiraine will return with invaluable knowledge and at some point, we're going to find Morgase thrust back into the limelight. I imagine perhaps at a time when Elayne and Faile meet (faile will have her retainers with her, as Perrin states she is trying to set up a proper house).

[aevogt]

Bael was married only to Dorindha for (presumably) many years before Melaine laid a wreath at his feet.  This after discussing it with, not Bael, but  Dorindha.  The man doesn't have a whole lot of choice.  If his wife decides he's getting a sister-wife, he's getting one.  Aviendha describes it best.  Two women won't break up their friendship over a man.

 

It's a very different culture.  Men cannot own land.  Based on some of Sevanna's action, there is no such thing as inheritance either.

 

Personally, I don't think Polygamy in Aiel society is based on the need to maintain the population.  It is simply not the taboo it is seen to be in the Westland cultures.  

 

From a technical standpoint, it also makes a pretty good literary device to flesh out some of the characters and many plot lines.  Would we be reading the same tale if Rand and Egwene had decided to marry at the end of TEoTW, so she could take care of him.  Not hardly.  Much of what has happened has been because of the R/A/M/E love Quadrangle.  None of that would have been possible unless at least one of the cultures allowed for multiple marriages.  Since Aiel culture is so far seperated from the rest of those found in the Westlands, they were the ones to get that particular honor, so to speak.

[The Lost One]

I am going to completely mess up the spellings because I listen to the audio books, so please excuse my spelling errors.

 

If I am not mistaken, Melaine was interested in Bale, so she asked Amys and Behr to approach is wife for her.  She wanted to make sure his wife would be okay with it (her).  In this case I think Melaine was ready to have children...or was hoping to have children, as indicated when Egwene spies on her dreams.  I am sure that was only part of it, she must have been interested in Bale as well.  But this paticular situation brings up a good point.  Bale and Dirinda (or whatever his first wife's name is) had a monogamous 1 on 1 relationship going.  Melaine was not her first sister or anything like that, but she is still going to ask to join the relationship based on her interest in Bale.  So, I assume that any single woman can approach any married man and his wife to join in and become a send wife, third wife, whatever?  From this situation they made it sound like the man really doesn't have any say, if the wife and potential wife agree, they just inform the man.  

 

I think I have more understanding of a man marrying first sisters at the same time, then I do of the Melaine situation.

 

 

 

 

[trakand_01]

Aha, them's the ones, as they say. Melaine, Bael and Dorindha. Yes i very much remember that once Dorindha and Melaine had agreed, that Bael really had very little say in it.

 

I wonder how much of this is down to the fact that women in tune with their bodies and everything have historically and instinctively 'known' when they are in prime childbearing condition, so really for the good of the civilisation, the man should 'do his bit' whenever the women say it's time. Melaine got pregnant with twins almost immediately i seem to recall.

 

Another two monogamous relationships (although neither men are Aiel) are Mat and Melindhra, who turns out to be a DF; they are together for a few weeks / months before she tries to kill him, and Rand / Aviendha although before she admitted she loved him. Before the snow-scene. When they are in the Hold, Aviendha is beating rugs for having said something to the Wise Ones, i forget what. Rand tries to apologise, and then goes to the Maidens, asking for what he thinks is an apologetic gift. He wants to give her something to make up for her having to do penance for something to do with him. But the maidens think he is asking their permission to declare his interest in her. They get him drinking oosquai in some ceremony and he ends up just touching the cup to his mouth because he's getting drunk.

 

That would have been a monogamous relationship and there was no suggestion that he should take a 2nd woman at the same time. Aviendha herself seems appalled that he might want her as well as Elayne - that is the whole problem with her, she sees him as 'belonging' to Elayne, and therefore is out of bounds to her.

[Bazzles]

Don't the maidens have to give up being a maiden if they have a child? I think that was what made Rand's mother special, wasnt it?

 

They can choose to give it up and remain maidens, or give up the spear and keep the child...

 

I think...

[trakand_01]

No i think you're right. What about marriage though, can a maiden marry and remain a maiden, or is the purpose of marriage supposed to be to have children, therefore a married mother would be expected to give it up and raise the child?

[Bazzles]

As with almost everything else I say I'm not sure but I think they also have to give up the spear to marry  ;D

[aevogt]

No i think you're right. What about marriage though, can a maiden marry and remain a maiden, or is the purpose of marriage supposed to be to have children, therefore a married mother would be expected to give it up and raise the child?

 

Sulin confirmed this.  A man tried to come between her and the spear and she chose the spear. 

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

The Matriarchal theme is something which is very heavy in the books.

 

Oh I agree, but I'd add a caveat. The majority of the women we meet are in positions of power, heads of houses, Aes Sedai, Windfinders: vital to their society, etc.. All these women are at the top of the food chain. I'd say that this is fairly consistant with the setting of Randland (late medieval?). I mean, it's only been within the last century that we've begun to elect and/or nominate female political figures for the top office.

 

It seems to me that Aiel women, across the board, would have more power than their Wetlander counterparts. I might be totally off track here though.

 

@ Aevogt.

 

I realise that it might look like I only think it's to do with population, but I'm aware it's more complex.

 

I'm curious as to where it might have come from. In most cases of socities where polygamy is practiced, it's done so as a result of following the tenets of religion. Generally in Chrisitianity it's taboo, in Islam it's not in many cases.

 

Given the above, why do the Aiel practice it? They share a common religion with the Wetlanders. It just makes me think that there are practical reasons behind why they practice it.

 

But as you point out, maybe it's just there to put a bit of spice into the world.

[trakand_01]

It probably came about as many of these things do; one man either wanted both women, or married a woman who had a first-sister and therefore was forced to take both. Then other members of the population think 'if he can do it, so can i' and more people do it. Eventually it just becomes accepted.