the difference in oath rods

[Luckers]

There were at least one hundred and eleven female oriented binders--which suggests more since who makes odd numbers.

 

But then it may not imply much about use--it may simply be that in order to be prepared all regional law enforcement offices had a binder. That would mean thousands, many of which probably never saw use.

[wvlr]

Luckers is it possible that there could have actually been less that 111 Female Binders.

 

Say maybe the odd ones were Female and the even ones were Male?    Both the female ones that we have seen 3 & 111 are odd and meet this requirement.

 

So maybe there were only about 60 of each?

 

It's just a theory but 111 each in an Age when there was very little crime, seems like quite a lot.

[Luckers]

For sure its possible. I just think it more likely that the numbers are regional denominations... like area codes. Nothing like law and order to bring out the beauracracy in people.

[wvlr]

Nothing like law and order to bring out the beauracracy in people.

 

Now THAT's funny!    :D :D ;)

[cloglord]

I don't see how. Mimicry is much easier than exact duplication. No one is suggesting that ter'angreal can't be intuitively reproduced in TAR, even by those that have an incomplete knowledge of what they are reproducing--as Nynaeve's experience shows.

 

But exact duplication of a specific ter'angreal--not just its effect, but its exact nature, to me would require a far more detailed knowledge of the ter'angreal. A knowledge lacking in most, if not all, sisters.

 

I can see a couple ways that exact duplication would be easier.  One would be a philosphical argument about the "ideal" form as it relates to TAR, the other could be an argument based on the malleability of space within TAR.  For example, when using need, the dreamwalker focuses on an item that they need but can not visualize, and the laws of TAR bring the dreamwalker to the object in question.  Why would you assume that a similar visualization of a specific item, in-hand, would not bring that item's reflection to the dreamwalker?  For all intents and purposes it would appear as though the rod had been created, when actually it has only been moved...

 

 

And I would point out that binders show no more necessity for indetical reproduction than a'dam. There were once hundreds of them.

You are quite correct that the binders did not exhibit the need to be created identically, in fact that is the heart of the discussion, what do the differences represent?  And for the record 111 is not hundreds.

 

For sure its possible. I just think it more likely that the numbers are regional denominations... like area codes. Nothing like law and order to bring out the beauracracy in people.

 

But a beuracracy designed around the occurance of the rare crime among the tiniest majority of the population?  Lets say that AoL population was 5,000,000 and the occurence of channelers was 3%.  That's 150,000 Channelers during the AoL.  Lets say that 1% of these channelers commit some sort of crime, that's 1500.  Now lets say that 5 % of those crimes are violent crimes worthy of a good old fashioned binding, that is a grand total of 75 violent, OP wielding criminals worldwide.  It might not be coincidence that we only have evididence of 111 rods.

[Luckers]

I can see a couple ways that exact duplication would be easier.  One would be a philosphical argument about the "ideal" form as it relates to TAR, the other could be an argument based on the malleability of space within TAR.  For example, when using need, the dreamwalker focuses on an item that they need but can not visualize, and the laws of TAR bring the dreamwalker to the object in question.  Why would you assume that a similar visualization of a specific item, in-hand, would not bring that item's reflection to the dreamwalker?  For all intents and purposes it would appear as though the rod had been created, when actually it has only been moved...

 

I'm sorry, but you interpret that to be exact duplication, whilst I do not. The 'ideal form' and the dictations of need both involve an inexact visualisation on the part of the dreamer that is filled in by the basic laws of TAR which strive for reflection of the real world--but that ignores that the basic visualisation is inexact, and yet the construct is still bound to it, as Nynaeve's a'dam proves. Even if the object is brought from a distance, or filled in by need based on real life objects, or changed to match the ideal form by TAR's desire to accurately mimic the real world, it is still bound by the initial flawed visualisation.

 

We have different interpretations mate. Deal with it.

 

You are quite correct that the binders did not exhibit the need to be created identically, in fact that is the heart of the discussion, what do the differences represent?  And for the record 111 is not hundreds.

 

I don't much see how thats a response. You were the one who raised the similarity of a'dam as if its different. And, just for the record, 111 is not hundreds, but 222 is (since there must have been male equivalents), and since its more than likely that didn't create such a random number i feel more than justified in my comment.

 

But a beuracracy designed around the occurance of the rare crime among the tiniest majority of the population?  Lets say that AoL population was 5,000,000 and the occurence of channelers was 3%.  That's 150,000 Channelers during the AoL.  Lets say that 1% of these channelers commit some sort of crime, that's 1500.  Now lets say that 5 % of those crimes are violent crimes worthy of a good old fashioned binding, that is a grand total of 75 violent, OP wielding criminals worldwide.  It might not be coincidence that we only have evididence of 111 rods.

 

Or a whole bunch of them might have sat around for centuries gathering dust. Beauracracies are nothing if not redundent.

[cloglord]

I'm sorry, but you interpret that to be exact duplication, whilst I do not. The 'ideal form' and the dictations of need both involve an inexact visualisation on the part of the dreamer that is filled in by the basic laws of TAR which strive for reflection of the real world--but that ignores that the basic visualisation is inexact, and yet the construct is still bound to it, as Nynaeve's a'dam proves. Even if the object is brought from a distance, or filled in by need based on real life objects, or changed to match the ideal form by TAR's desire to accurately mimic the real world, it is still bound by the initial flawed visualisation.

 

None of which requires the object created to be imperfect.  If I visualize 555-oooo when dialing the phone I'm still going to get 555-0000 when they pick up.  It might be as you say that an imperfect visualization would keep a created item from being exact enough, but it is a long way from certain, and since you can only cite your own personal interpretation it is not a very convincing argument.

 

We have different interpretations mate. Deal with it.

 

Done, consider it dealt with.

 

I don't much see how thats a response. You were the one who raised the similarity of a'dam as if its different.

I raised the creation of a fully functional terangreal created by a person with severely limited exposure to the creation of terangreal as proof that it was easily done.  The ability lies in the visualization, and if an aes sedai who wished to remove an oath in TAR wanted to create a functional oathrod for that purpose, she would be able to do so similarly by visualizing what she knows, (the rod in the tower,) and its intended use, (a rod capable of removing her oath.)  If she conjures one on these conditions, it would probably appear to be an exact copy of the WT rod, and would retain whatever functionality that was needed. IMO.

 

111 is not hundreds, but 222 is (since there must have been male equivalents), and since its more than likely that didn't create such a random number i feel more than justified in my comment.

 

There does not need to be male equivalents becasue we have not established that the oathrod does not work on men.  All we have to go on is the statement that Sammael made to Sevanna.  We also have a clear example of precedent for Sammael making up things about terangreal and lying about them to Sevanna ala Nar' Hara boxes.  Sammy is a liar.  We only have evidence of 2 oathrods surviving, while there appear to be multiple artifacts left relating to speaking over great distance, and TAR manipulation.  It seems like every other character in the books has an angreal, but in over 3000 years of looking the WT only turns up one binder?  It has more Sa'Angreal than that...

[Luckers]

None of which requires the object created to be imperfect.  If I visualize 555-oooo when dialing the phone I'm still going to get 555-0000 when they pick up.  It might be as you say that an imperfect visualization would keep a created item from being exact enough, but it is a long way from certain, and since you can only cite your own personal interpretation it is not a very convincing argument.

 

Yes, indeed, read above where i specifically state that that is my interpretation.

 

Incidently, you do realise the opposite is true, right?

 

I raised the creation of a fully functional terangreal created by a person with severely limited exposure to the creation of terangreal as proof that it was easily done.  The ability lies in the visualization, and if an aes sedai who wished to remove an oath in TAR wanted to create a functional oathrod for that purpose, she would be able to do so similarly by visualizing what she knows, (the rod in the tower,) and its intended use, (a rod capable of removing her oath.)  If she conjures one on these conditions, it would probably appear to be an exact copy of the WT rod, and would retain whatever functionality that was needed. IMO.

 

I'm sorry, but you yourself admit the limited knowledge of the creator being able to create a functional ter'angreal. Anything further is absolutely made up. They might have easily have made something new... there is no probability about it, and you have no basis for such.

 

Seriously champ, i admitted at the very beginning there was that possibility, and yet you seem to be arguining constantly for people to say you must be right... there is no basis for that. We disagree. Deal with it.

 

 

 

There does not need to be male equivalents becasue we have not established that the oathrod does not work on men.  All we have to go on is the statement that Sammael made to Sevanna.  We also have a clear example of precedent for Sammael making up things about terangreal and lying about them to Sevanna ala Nar' Hara boxes.  Sammy is a liar.  We only have evidence of 2 oathrods surviving, while there appear to be multiple artifacts left relating to speaking over great distance, and TAR manipulation.  It seems like every other character in the books has an angreal, but in over 3000 years of looking the WT only turns up one binder?  It has more Sa'Angreal than that...

 

Prevarication. Sammael stated that Sevannah would need something else, plus the white nature of the oath rod combined with the over all theme of difference between the genders more than sets up precident.

 

Seriously cloglord, are you so desperate to be right as to contend this issue. I'm done--its unpleasant talking to you and I'm done.

[cloglord]

Seriously cloglord, are you so desperate to be right as to contend this issue. I'm done--its unpleasant talking to you and I'm done.

 

I'm truly sorry that you feel this way, I am not trying to wrest some concession from you, I'm just trying to point out, what I feel to be, other viable possibilities.