five questions that are either stupid or intriguing..

[Jellybelly]

I need some quotes here, guys... I was under the impression that the Choedan Kal could not be accessed without the keys. That IS what needing an access key means, right? It seems obvious that Rand was merely reacting to the resonance of Saidin.

[Blade]

I'm pretty sure Callandor is unbuffered, but it is also flawed. If you'll remember, Rand was constantly 'dancing on the edge of a knife' whenever he was channeling. He always had to have that delicate balance in the amount of power he was wielding or else he would burn himself out.

 

On a side note, A friend of mine and I had a question. Can't rand still use Callandor? If I remember right, the requirement of having two women in a circle with the man channeling through callandor was only to get rid of the flaw in it, or was it to buffer it as well? If I remember right, when you're in a circle you can't burn yourself out, so I guess it would be two-fold anyway.

[Jedimuppet]

I'm pretty sure Callandor is unbuffered' date=' but it is also flawed. If you'll remember, Rand was constantly 'dancing on the edge of a knife' whenever he was channeling. He always had to have that delicate balance in the amount of power he was wielding or else he would burn himself out.

 

On a side note, A friend of mine and I had a question. Can't rand still use Callandor? If I remember right, the requirement of having two women in a circle with the man channeling through callandor was only to get rid of the flaw in it, or was it to buffer it as well? If I remember right, when you're in a circle you can't burn yourself out, so I guess it would be two-fold anyway.[/quote']

 

I think the circle addressed both issues.

J

[Luckers]

As I said, I wasn't contradicting that point, only adding in what I thought was the major reason they were made. Had they keys not been made, an effort would have been made to fix the "buffering" problem. It wasn't necessary to, though, because of the keys having that functionality.

 

Thats probably the case, but i have this theory (no evidence you understand, but still, i like it)... You see, the construction of strong sa'angrel must be hard for some reason, or both sides would have simple constructed Choedan Kal. Heaps of them. I think what makes it hard is the insertion of the buffer. As the strength of the sa'angreal increases, the effort to put a buffer in increases. Callandor, i think was sort of near the border, and they failed. In the Age of Legends this probably wasn't a massive problem with readily apparent circles if it needed to be used. It probably would have been a waste to get rid of. The Choedan Kal, i think, were like a breakthrough. Using Access ter'angreal acted to get around this buffering issue. It would fit with RJ's whole attitude about war bringing about great invention.

[divillysausages]

I'm pretty sure Callandor is unbuffered' date=' but it is also flawed. If you'll remember, Rand was constantly 'dancing on the edge of a knife' whenever he was channeling. He always had to have that delicate balance in the amount of power he was wielding or else he would burn himself out.[/quote']

rand also described channeling like that, whether or not he was using callandor.

 

luckers, i like your idea of angreal/s'angreal making. taking an idea from elaine's making of ter'angreal and egwenes making of heartstone, i'm thinking that you need to make the object first, then turn it into a angreal, if you get my meaning. the reason why the choedan'kal were one of a kind is because of their sheer size and the amount of aes sedai required to change them?

[Luckers]

Well size doesn't nessasarily seem to be indicative of power. We have comparisons of angreal strengths in which the smaller size was the stronger angreal--Elayne and the three angreal, specifically.

 

But you are probable right that they make them before they turn them into angreal or sa'angreal.

 

I also think that there must be a destinction between angreal and sa'angreal. After all why have the different name, there are ranges of strength in angreal, why not simply let that go on to the higher strengths. I suspect the distinction comes in the way they are made: that angreal are made by women, for women and by men, for men, resulting in the weakness, whilst sa'angreal are made by women, for men, or by men, for women. I suspect this works in much the same way as healing stilling or gentleing. Opposite serves as a better channel for the one power to flow throw because if its the same some of that power is absorbed or something.

[Jedimuppet]

Well size doesn't nessasarily seem to be indicative of power. We have comparisons of angreal strengths in which the smaller size was the stronger angreal--Elayne and the three angreal' date=' specifically.

 

But you are probable right that they make them before they turn them into angreal or sa'angreal.

 

I also think that there must be a destinction between angreal and sa'angreal. After all why have the different name, there are ranges of strength in angreal, why not simply let that go on to the higher strengths. I suspect the distinction comes in the way they are made: that angreal are made by women, for women and by men, for men, resulting in the weakness, whilst sa'angreal are made by women, for men, or by men, for women. I suspect this works in much the same way as healing stilling or gentleing. Opposite serves as a better channel for the one power to flow throw because if its the same some of that power is absorbed or something.[/quote']

 

because sa'angreal are exponentially more powerful. Angreal exist on a linear level, with a fairly wide range, but sa'angreal are like taking the power of the strongest angreal and magnifying it again.

 

There's probably specific differences in the crafting that allow for this.

J

[divillysausages]

maybe you have to make the angreal first, then turn that into a s'angreal. which prob involves a hell of a lot more effort, hence why there's so many more angreal than s'angreal and the difference in their relative powers.

 

jedimuppet, i don't think they're exponentially more powerful, they just increase the use of the power over an angreal by the same amount that an angreal over using the power alone. say an angreal would let you channel 150% more than by channeling alone, then a s'angreal would let you channel 150% more than that 150% if you get my meaning.. which would make my idea even more right :D

[Jedimuppet]

maybe you have to make the angreal first' date=' then turn that into a s'angreal. which prob involves a hell of a lot more effort, hence why there's so many more angreal than s'angreal and the difference in their relative powers.

 

jedimuppet, i don't think they're exponentially more powerful, they just increase the use of the power over an angreal by the same amount that an angreal over using the power alone. say an angreal would let you channel 150% more than by channeling alone, then a s'angreal would let you channel 150% more than that 150% if you get my meaning.. which would make my idea even more right :D[/quote']

 

I think you just defined exponential. RJ said that a sa'angreal is to an angreal as an angreal is to an unaided channeler.

 

unaided channeler = x. Say an angreal multiplies their abilities by two. angreal power = 2x. Sa'angreal multiplies an angreal as an angreal does an unaided channeler, so you get x * 2x = 2x^2.

 

Exponential.

J

[Luckers]

The range in strengths makes exponentiality not true though. I mean as a rough idea of generally how much stronger a sa'angreal is, sure. But RJ has said specifically that he has never attributed a numerical value to strengths in the power. And exponantiality would imply to me a set rise in power.

[Jedimuppet]

The range in strengths makes exponentiality not true though. I mean as a rough idea of generally how much stronger a sa'angreal is' date=' sure. But RJ has said specifically that he has never attributed a numerical value to strengths in the power. And exponantiality would imply to me a set rise in power.[/quote']

 

That's not the point. In general sa'angreal are an order more powerful than angreal. The language is clear. I never claimed he assigned a number, even though he does a keep a note book with channeler's strength in the power on a numerical scale. He says he does it mostly to see who defers to whom in the tower, etc, but he said he does do it.

 

Let me say it again. If you have something that increases your strength by a certain factor, and then something that increases that strength by a certain factor, you've increased it two factors, or exponentially.

 

It wasn't meant to be controversial.

J

[Blade]

I know that the circle addresses both issues, I was wondering if Rand could now use Callandor outside of a circle now though since he has shown that he knows how to balance how much of the power he draws when using it, though the battle of cairhenin did show that he might decide to overdraw.

[Jedimuppet]

I know that the circle addresses both issues' date=' I was wondering if Rand could now use Callandor outside of a circle now though since he has shown that he knows how to balance how much of the power he draws when using it, though the battle of cairhenin did show that he might decide to overdraw.[/quote']

 

I don't think he can safely use it by himself.

J

[Luckers]

Me either, though it may be its not as dangerous to use without the taint. It may not cause the insanity.

[Jedimuppet]

Me either' date=' though it may be its not as dangerous to use without the taint. It may not cause the insanity.[/quote']

 

Yeah, it's definitely not *as* bad without the taint, but the original flaw is bad enough to keep a rational person from pullint it out.

 

Of course, he's got Elayne and Avi if he needs two females he aboslutely trusts to help him.

J