Twice the Dragon...

[Duggadugga]

"One the dragon for rememberance lost. Twice the dragon for the price he must pay."

 

We all know that the prophecies demand the Dragon's blood. But what is the price?

 

I think the price he must pay is the price for men's pride. Lews Therin's pride in the Age of Legends made him turn a blind eye to the female servants of all. The result was the breaking of the world. The Aes Sedai of the White Tower's ability to make thrones dance are the source of thier pride. Their pride has also left them woefully ignorant of a great many things. The Chosen's pride have caused the world pain. Just study their history and you can see it. And what of Rand Al'Thor. He has enough pride for ten kings.

 

Is the Dragon to die for all men's pride including his own?

 

What do you think the price is?

[Smoosh]

I always thought the price he must pay was him dying. The second dragon seperates him from the other clan chiefs. The second dragon also seperates him from other men, period.

[Luckers]

Actually that whole men's pride thing is a concotion of the current age. Lews Therin wanted women involved in the sealing, but a woman named Lara Prosae, his oposite in the hall, went to all the women of enough strength, and even some without, and got them to sign a contract to not be involved, saying that her plan to use the Choedan Kal was much safer. Even later in the game, when any hope of the choedan kal she refused to let women take part in the circle by virtue of the Fateful Concord, as it later came to be called. In the end, with the light in the very sight of defeat and following three major offensives by Sammael, Demandred and Be'lal, Lews Therin was forced to act without the aid of women.

 

We have no proof that the use of women would have stopped the tainting, aside from the fact that time and again RJ has stressed the point that men and women are stronger together then apart, and when one acts without the other, dire consequinces occur. Nevertheless, he averted total defeat and gave the Light another 3000 years and a chance of later victory.

 

The whole 'men's pride and men's sin' is something the Aes Sedai have developed, likely as a way they can mentally accepting gentling men who commited no more crime then being born with the same ability as them. Sociologically it would make a lot of sense. We've done it throughout the centuries... the vilification of that which we must oppose so that we may oppose them and retain our hummanity.

[Ashandarei]

Lews Therin wanted women involved in the sealing' date=' but a woman named Lara Prosae, his oposite in the hall, went to all the women of enough strength, and even some without, and got them to sign a contract to not be involved, saying that her plan to use the Choedan Kal was much safer. Even later in the game, when any hope of the choedan kal she refused to let women take part in the circle by virtue of the Fateful Concord, as it later came to be called. In the end, with the light in the very sight of defeat and following three major offensives by Sammael, Demandred and Be'lal, Lews Therin was forced to act without the aid of women.

 

The whole 'men's pride and men's sin' is something the Aes Sedai have developed, likely as a way they can mentally accepting gentling men who commited no more crime then being born with the same ability as them. [/quote']

 

First, i wanted to ask you, Where did you get all the info about the Fateful Concord etc. it's pretty impressive. Maybe i'm just ignorant, but could you fill me in? thanks

 

Secondly, i definitely agree about the Aes Sedai developing the the whole men's sin thing. It inversely reflects our world in how there is "women's sin" in the bible.

[Luckers]

That RJ wanted a world that had inverse male female roles isn't doubted, but RJ is much too much of student of the effects that has on people to have it for no other reason then to be an opposite of the bible... RJ's a Free Mason, after all. That he would be aware of the untruthful vilification of the other side that takes place in war or any confrontation is implausible... he went to war.

 

This idea is present throughout the series. The Aes sedai also have to feel superior to other women who can channel, so you get the wilder prejudice. The male version is just stronger because they have to be gentled, and stilling is the worse thing you can do to an Aes Sedai, but somehow the Aes Sedai have to be capable of doing the same to men, it would be basic human nature to introduce a doctrine that justified that. I mean look at modern society and the way terrorism has become a catchphrase to allow for the breaking of basic human rights. This sort of thing is human nature, and you can be sure RJ is well aware of it. (incedently, in sociology they are called meta-naratives. The stories societies tell themselves to feel justified in their actions)

 

As for the Fateful Concord stuff, most of it is in the BWB (which stands for Big White Book, and is actually called The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time by Theresa Patterson, and is a compendium of information about the world that is quite interesting, though a lot you already know. The stuff on the Age of Legends is all pretty new though. I've also heard it called the BWBP, or Book With Bad Pictures, though you don't really see that around anymore.) If you don't have it, you should get it. Also, sorry, i made a mistake, the womans name was Latra, not Lara. Latra Posae Decume.

[Inara]

the dragons are an aiel thing

1st dragon = knowlege of aiel history...remeberance lost

2nd dargon = marks him as car'a'carn, who is fated to destroy the aiel...who are his price.

[Luckers]

The dragons are not an aiel thing, indeed they are far more significant in randland history then in aiel history,

[Smoosh]

They are far mor significant in Randland history, but far mor significant in Aiel modern-day. Most wetlanders didn't know what the Dragons were at first. It was always "what people called the Dragon," not "the Dragon", as if they were hesitant.

[ShadowEternal]

actually, i believe that the 'price' to be paid was the loss of rand's hand. he has lost one hand and now has half a dragon on his arm. but he has a whole dragon on his other still marking him as a aiel chief. (i dont think it has been mentioned what happens to the chiefs who lose their arm with the dragon on it.

[Inara]

the whole point of the dragon marking is to verify a man as chief. he knows the history of the aiel and accepts it. i doesnt matter if he loses the arm, everybody already knows he is chief.

as for the dragons not being an aiel thing, at the present in randland, they are much more an aiel thing than a wetlander thing. wetlanders refer to the Dragon as a person, with no implication of animal or anything else. the aiel refer to themselves as the people of the dragon, and their chifs wear a dragon on thier arms.

their entire culture is intertwined with it.

 

the price he must pay could be as simple as his life, the second dragon descriminate him from other clan chiefs as the one who MUST die at TG.

[crash]

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragons blood stains the rocks of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.

[Zas]

I think the present day Aiel adopted the sigul of the Dragon around the arm not only to represent the knowledge and acceptance of the history of the Aiel, leading back to the Da'Shain and when they were known as "those that served the Dragon.", but because they DID and are STILL fated to serve the Dragon (Reborn)

Possibly, the symbolism of his losing of part of the Dragon when his hand was destroyed is symbolic of the destruction of the Aiel, with the Mer'a'din (Brotherless) and the different clans tribes and septs either still following Rand as clans, becoming siswai'aman (which comes from South Africa in origin) or following Sevanna.

[Genesis_XVI]

I always thought as follows:

 

1st Dragon: Remembrance Lost = history of the Aiel.

 

2nd Dragon: Price he must pay = the 2nd Dragon distinguishes him from other Clan chiefs. The Second Dragon represents the price that will be exacted from him just by being more. Being the Chief of Chiefs, being the Dragon. The 2nd Dragon is a symbol of his status, as something greater than the norm, and as such, a symbol of the associated costs of being this figure, of being the Dragon. The 2nd Dragon then represents not only him, but his entire struggle, and everything he must endure, sacrafice and do along the way.

 

That's what I think anyway. It won't mean anything to you if you don't believe Rand has paid the price for who he is, and is still paying it.

 

:) Genesis XVI