Cyndane/Lanfear

[Jedimuppet]

I then dont see how we can assume that they would kill her out right then. We do know that she was held for some time' date=' if being tied to the shadow was a death sentence, why be held at all.

 

Also I was reading another website that held an interesting idea. Perhaps Moiraine and Lanfear were stilled, and lanfear atleast asked to be able to channel again, so they transmigrated her, and the price was lesser ability. Just wondered what you thought of this. I found it interesting. And this explains all the loopholes i know.[/quote']

 

Only the Lord of the Grave (and maybe the Creator) can transmigrate souls.

J

[Mad Season]

If Lanfear was stilled and asked to channel the Finns could have healed her but made her much weaker. Then later they killed her and the DO transmigrated her. Theres no evidence the DO would be able to undo what the Finns did if this was the case.

[Jedimuppet]

If Lanfear was stilled and asked to channel the Finns could have healed her but made her much weaker. Then later they killed her and the DO transmigrated her. Theres no evidence the DO would be able to undo what the Finns did if this was the case.

 

There's no evidence that he couldn't. We already know he can bring you back from the dead...It would be as if the stilling never happened.

 

If someone was brought back from the dead with all the wounds they had in their life on their body, then I would support your assertion, but it seems safe to assume that you come back in your "natural" condition, untouched by what happened in your previous life.

J

[Mad Season]

Well I think the scenario with the Finns would be the same as if Lanfear were stilled and then healed by a man. While the decrease in power wouldn't necesarily be related to that, the general idea of the wound being completely healed and not being able to be healed a second time would be the same.

 

Well wounds to the body don't relate at all because the whole point of being brought back from the dead is they get a new body...

 

The "natural" condition of a channeler would be not being able to channel for 15 or 20 years right after "birth". So your argueing they revert back to their skill at 20 or something? Because they clearly don't go back to birth. Aginor/Balthamel/Ishamael apparently went back to their fully developed power, this could range from their power at 25 (or whenever they were fully matured) to however many hundreds of years old they were at the time of their death. The only conclusive evidence is it wasn't their condition at birth to when they could fully channel.

 

It seems to me the ability to channel is connected to their soul, not their body. Since I assume Moridin's body isn't as strong as Rand, his soul (previously in Ishamael) is. This is pretty much accepted, I think. The DO himself says he cannot step out of time (or something to that effect) when he mentions he can't bring back people who die to Balefire. To me it makes sense he can't grab Lanfear's soul pre-stilling if he can't grab Rahvin's pre-balefiring. And since the ability to channel is connected to her soul I would think any damage to it would be permanent. Of course stilling could be healed, just as if she had been stilled and then returned to SG. I'm sure the DO could have gotten someone to heal her. But if she had been stilled and then healed by a woman or the Finn's she couldn't be re-healed by a man to return her to her former strength (as far as we know). This is assumeing the DO can't effect someone's ability to channel outside what the OP can, which theres no evidence for.

 

Just a quick note, not really sure if this matters but I assume what the DO does is not an actual rebirth. So I'm not saying if Rand is stilled the next Dragon would be. Since when someone is reborn he/she loses their memories and their ability to channel has to mature. This isn't what happens when the DO transmigrates someone.

[Jedimuppet]

Well I think the scenario with the Finns would be the same as if Lanfear were stilled and then healed by a man. While the decrease in power wouldn't necesarily be related to that' date=' the general idea of the wound being completely healed and not being able to be healed a second time would be the same.

 

Well wounds to the body don't relate at all because the whole point of being brought back from the dead is they get a new body...

 

The "natural" condition of a channeler would be not being able to channel for 15 or 20 years right after "birth". So your argueing they revert back to their skill at 20 or something? Because they clearly don't go back to birth. Aginor/Balthamel/Ishamael apparently went back to their fully developed power, this could range from their power at 25 (or whenever they were fully matured) to however many hundreds of years old they were at the time of their death. The only conclusive evidence is it wasn't their condition at birth to when they could fully channel.

 

It seems to me the ability to channel is connected to their soul, not their body. Since I assume Moridin's body isn't as strong as Rand, his soul (previously in Ishamael) is. This is pretty much accepted, I think. The DO himself says he cannot step out of time (or something to that effect) when he mentions he can't bring back people who die to Balefire. To me it makes sense he can't grab Lanfear's soul pre-stilling if he can't grab Rahvin's pre-balefiring. And since the ability to channel is connected to her soul I would think any damage to it would be permanent. Of course stilling could be healed, just as if she had been stilled and then returned to SG. I'm sure the DO could have gotten someone to heal her. But if she had been stilled and then healed by a woman or the Finn's she couldn't be re-healed by a man to return her to her former strength (as far as we know). This is assumeing the DO can't effect someone's ability to channel outside what the OP can, which theres no evidence for.

 

Just a quick note, not really sure if this matters but I assume what the DO does is not an actual rebirth. So I'm not saying if Rand is stilled the next Dragon would be. Since when someone is reborn he/she loses their memories and their ability to channel has to mature. This isn't what happens when the DO transmigrates someone.[/quote']

 

We've already seen that a stilling has a physical component. Without that component, the effects are gone. Are you arguing that the new body has that "cut piece" that Nynaeve sensed? I believe the DO is responsible for her reduced power level, and that if he isn't, it happened after she died and came back.

[Mad Season]

How can anything related to the ability to channel have a "physical" component related to the actual body? If this is the case Mordidin, Osan'gar and Asan'gar would have been the strongest AS of the age if the DO hadn't got them and put Forsaken souls in them?? (And they happened to corrolate with the strengths of the Forsaken put into those bodies, nevermind how a woman was able to channel saidin) The "cut piece" isn't part of the actual "body" its part of the soul which the DO moves to a different body. If its possible for any body to be "cut" it would be possible to still Lan or Mat, which makes no sense. It has to be related to the soul, which the DO transfers.

[Jedimuppet]

How can anything related to the ability to channel have a "physical" component related to the actual body? If this is the case Mordidin' date=' Osan'gar and Asan'gar would have been the strongest AS of the age if the DO hadn't got them and put Forsaken souls in them?? (And they happened to corrolate with the strengths of the Forsaken put into those bodies, nevermind how a woman was able to channel saidin) The "cut piece" isn't part of the actual "body" its part of the soul which the DO moves to a different body. If its possible for any body to be "cut" it would be possible to still Lan or Mat, which makes no sense. It has to be related to the soul, which the DO transfers.[/quote']

 

You should reread that section, because she wouldn't be able to "Heal" it then. Stilling is something that affects the body; otherwise the soul would be forever stilled, and we know that's not the case. I just can't believe you're suggesting that the DO can bring someone back from the dead, but cant' do what Nynaeve can in the process.

J

[Mad Season]

You should reread that section' date=' because she wouldn't be able to "Heal" it then. [/quote']

Well I just reread it, didn't see anything relevant, could you point it out? I think its clear channeling can effect a persons ability to channel (sheild for example) so are you saying this is also physical? If so it would suck to be born in an Age when the Dragon couldn't channel.

 

Stilling is something that affects the body; otherwise the soul would be forever stilled' date=' and we know that's not the case. [/quote']

I thought I adressed this is my last post. Theres a big difference between being reborn and being transmigrated. When a person is reborn they lose their memories, and they're ability to channel is "reset" and it has to mature again. Also diseases of the mind, such as Lews Therin's madness are gone.

 

When someone is transmigrated they keep their memories, ability to channel without having to mature, and Ishamael is still more than a touch mad, which I believe was mentioned before he was transmigrated.

 

It makes sense stilling, like madness, would not effect someone who is reborn. Their soul is changed in some way or else they wouldn't lose their memories and not be bale to channel untill they mature.

 

I just can't believe you're suggesting that the DO can bring someone back from the dead' date=' but cant' do what Nynaeve can in the process.

J[/quote']

Theres no evidence Nynaeve would be able to re-heal a man who was stilled and then healed by a man. Which is the scenario relating to this one. I'm suggesting the DO cannot just change the strength at which a person channels, if he could, why not make an army of 100000 DF's all stronger than Rand?

[Jedimuppet]

You should reread that section' date=' because she wouldn't be able to "Heal" it then. [/quote']

Well I just reread it, didn't see anything relevant, could you point it out? I think its clear channeling can effect a persons ability to channel (sheild for example) so are you saying this is also physical? If so it would suck to be born in an Age when the Dragon couldn't channel.

 

Stilling is something that affects the body; otherwise the soul would be forever stilled' date=' and we know that's not the case. [/quote']

I thought I adressed this is my last post. Theres a big difference between being reborn and being transmigrated. When a person is reborn they lose their memories, and they're ability to channel is "reset" and it has to mature again. Also diseases of the mind, such as Lews Therin's madness are gone.

 

When someone is transmigrated they keep their memories, ability to channel without having to mature, and Ishamael is still more than a touch mad, which I believe was mentioned before he was transmigrated.

 

It makes sense stilling, like madness, would not effect someone who is reborn. Their soul is changed in some way or else they wouldn't lose their memories and not be bale to channel untill they mature.

 

I just can't believe you're suggesting that the DO can bring someone back from the dead' date=' but cant' do what Nynaeve can in the process.

J[/quote']

Theres no evidence Nynaeve would be able to re-heal a man who was stilled and then healed by a man. Which is the scenario relating to this one. I'm suggesting the DO cannot just change the strength at which a person channels, if he could, why not make an army of 100000 DF's all stronger than Rand?

 

I don't think he can enhance their strength, but I think he can limit it, ala a supershield or whatever construct you want to imagine.

 

I just don't get your comparison.

 

First of all how do we know Moridin was mad when he came back? At the rate he uses the TP, he could have started out completely sane and degenerated by the time we meet him.

 

The reason they don't have to mature is because they're put in mature bodies, and besides they have all the memories of channeling.

 

I recognize that transmigration is not the same as rebirth, but I can't believe that you can't acknowledge that one can reverse death would be able to reverse stilling. In fact the only difference I see between rebirth and transmigration is that rebirth is a more natural process that takes much longer, and begins with conception. I think if stilling transcended death, as you suggest, it would do so for both transmigration and rebirth.

 

It's just hard for me to understand where you're coming from. If there was no physical component, no link between the body and the condition of being stilled, Nynaeve would be unable to heal it. That's pretty much a fact. It's already been stated that yellows can only heal the physical. she found the nexus at which the physical body connects with the sould and the ability to channel and healed that. It's clear from the text. If she can heal it, then the wound disappears upon death with the shedding of the body.

J

[Trib4l]

We've seen evidence in the books and from RJ's responses that show us that the 'ability' is related to the soul, but the actual channeling (i.e. amount of power, which half, etc...) is determined by the body.

 

Therefore, this body of Cyndane, which is almost as beautiful, and almost as powerful, is the DO's message to Lanfear that he isn't messing around. Her name alone indicates that, but he wants her to be constantly reminded by everything in which she used to take pride.

[Mad Season]

I don't think he can enhance their strength' date=' but I think he can limit it, ala a supershield or whatever construct you want to imagine.[/quote']

Yes the DO can probably limit the strength of someone "connected" to him, like a Forsaken.

 

I just don't get your comparison.

 

First of all how do we know Moridin was mad when he came back? At the rate he uses the TP' date=' he could have started out completely sane and degenerated by the time we meet him.[/quote']

 

Yeah, this probably isn't the best example.

 

The reason they don't have to mature is because they're put in mature bodies' date=' and besides they have all the memories of channeling.[/quote']

 

I think there is more to the ability to channel at full strength than the age of the body. The 60 year old woman in Salidar couldn't channel at full strength the first time she made a flame. Its been mentioned on many occasions by AS its impossible to tell how strong a novice will be exactly because the ability keeps maturing for years. And remembering how to channel isn't the same as being as strong as they were after years of training the first time they channel in a new body.

 

I recognize that transmigration is not the same as rebirth' date=' but I can't believe that you can't acknowledge that one can reverse death would be able to reverse stilling. In fact the only difference I see between rebirth and transmigration is that rebirth is a more natural process that takes much longer, and begins with conception. I think if stilling transcended death, as you suggest, it would do so for both transmigration and rebirth.[/quote']

 

Hmm OK I'll try to explain what I mean. I'm saying the ability to channel is part part of the persons soul. Transmigration just moves this soul straight from death to a new body. So everything is identical (including stilling and the maturity in the ability to channel). I think this is supported by the fact it didn't take Moridin 3-8 years to mature to his former strength. While rebirth somehow resets their ability to channel (along with many other characteristics). Their ability has to mature all over again.

 

It's just hard for me to understand where you're coming from. If there was no physical component' date=' no link between the body and the condition of being stilled, Nynaeve would be unable to heal it. That's pretty much a fact.It's already been stated that yellows can only heal the physical. she found the nexus at which the physical body connects with the sould and the ability to channel and healed that. It's clear from the text. If she can heal it, then the wound disappears upon death with the shedding of the body.[/quote']

 

The Yellow's were also convinced severing was impossible to heal. Maybe for precisely that reason, they thought only physical injuries could be.

 

Ok what I have a problem with in what your saying is that you agree channeling is part of their soul. But your saying their body has something to do with it also. I'm saying, why can't it just be their soul?

 

What your saying also means it would be possible to still people who cannot channel. While if channeling was only connected to the soul there woulkd be nothing to still in a person who couldn't channel.

 

And Trib4l if if the actual channeling is determined by the body how come Aran'gar channels saidin?

[Trib4l]

That was a mistake on my part - I meant to say that the half of the OP was determined by the soul as well - not the body. The body has to be capable.

[HighLordXanthus]

It is obvious that the soul bends the body to what it needs. Intellect, channeling ability. That is proven by the fact that Halima, a female form, can channel saidin. But the fact remains that though the ability to channel does come from the soul, that does not mean that severing/stilling would continue after transmigration.

 

If that were the case, then that would mean that an average person with the ability to channel could be taught to learn at any time in their life. It does not work that way, the BODY must mature and develop its connection to the OP. If this was not the case, and there would be no need to wait for maturity to channel. If it were all in the soul, then why that limit to the physical maturity.

 

It is more likely that when reborn by the dark ones hand, there is a period where the body is warped to the new souls qualities( i.e. intellect, channeling, wants, mental faculties, the ability to enter the world of dreams).

 

This bending of the body must happen rather quickly, because when Osan'gar and Aran'gar awake, in very little time they are in full function of thier former abilities. There is no difficulty walking in a larger/smaller frame. Aran'gar is very soon chasing men, and bending them to her will.

[Jedimuppet]

It is obvious that the soul bends the body to what it needs. Intellect' date=' channeling ability. That is proven by the fact that Halima, a female form, can channel saidin. But the fact remains that though the ability to channel does come from the soul, that does not mean that severing/stilling would continue after transmigration.

 

If that were the case, then that would mean that an average person with the ability to channel could be taught to learn at any time in their life. It does not work that way, the BODY must mature and develop its connection to the OP. If this was not the case, and there would be no need to wait for maturity to channel. If it were all in the soul, then why that limit to the physical maturity.

 

It is more likely that when reborn by the dark ones hand, there is a period where the body is warped to the new souls qualities( i.e. intellect, channeling, wants, mental faculties, the ability to enter the world of dreams).

 

This bending of the body must happen rather quickly, because when Osan'gar and Aran'gar awake, in very little time they are in full function of thier former abilities. There is no difficulty walking in a larger/smaller frame. Aran'gar is very soon chasing men, and bending them to her will.[/quote']

 

I think there's a reason that it's frequently stated that finding "suitable" bodies for transmigrated forsaken is "difficult". I mean, why not just take anyone if the body had nothing to do with it?

J

[HighLordXanthus]

It could be that they need someone willing, similar to a greyman. Also there is a scene where one of the forsaken is called to shayol ghul, demandred I think, he mentions the slim picking at the forge where they make the weapons for fades. Remember the blight has been very quiet for the last several books. It could be with fewer raids into the borderlands, there are simply less available bodies available

[HighLordXanthus]

You may actually be right though, perhaps the body must, however small, have the ability to channel, or perhaps be weak of will?

[Jedimuppet]

It could be that they need someone willing' date=' similar to a greyman. Also there is a scene where one of the forsaken is called to shayol ghul, demandred I think, he mentions the slim picking at the forge where they make the weapons for fades. Remember the blight has been very quiet for the last several books. It could be with fewer raids into the borderlands, there are simply less available bodies available[/quote']

 

They don't need willing people. They've already mentioned that they just steal borderlanders, usually.

J

[Mad Season]

It is obvious that the soul bends the body to what it needs. Intellect' date=' channeling ability. That is proven by the fact that Halima, a female form, can channel saidin. But the fact remains that though the ability to channel does come from the soul, that does not mean that severing/stilling would continue after transmigration.

 

If that were the case, then that would mean that an average person with the ability to channel could be taught to learn at any time in their life. It does not work that way, the BODY must mature and develop its connection to the OP. If this was not the case, and there would be no need to wait for maturity to channel. If it were all in the soul, then why that limit to the physical maturity.

[/quote']

 

So your saying a woman can channel Saidin as a result of transmigration but a 17 year old body couldn't channel at all? There's no evidence one of these would be connected to the body more than the other. We know definitively that no woman can naturally channel saidin, except after transmigration, we know no 15 year old can naturally channel at all, and we have no experience with transmigration to know whether a 15 yr. old body could.

 

If the body is important to channeling I would think the sex would matter more than whether it had reached the magical age where channeling becomes possible, especially since all the transmigrated Forsaken (except Lanfear) were able to channel at full strength right after transmigration, without maturing.

[HighLordXanthus]

It is obvious that body to soul bridge can be made. As proven by Asan'gar. And perhaps if the DO transmigrated a given soul into a child, it to would be able to channel, because as I said, the soul warps the body to it's needs.

 

The point I was trying to make is that the ability to channel may derive from the soul, thereafter the body must develop to a given point, or there would be no need for normal people to mature to channel. So when severed/stilled, it is a partially physical wound. Perhaps, the severing that nynaeve healed was part of the link between body and soul?

[Jedimuppet]

It is obvious that body to soul bridge can be made. As proven by Asan'gar. And perhaps if the DO transmigrated a given soul into a child' date=' it to would be able to channel, because as I said, the soul warps the body to it's needs.

 

The point I was trying to make is that the ability to channel may derive from the soul, thereafter the body must develop to a given point, or there would be no need for normal people to mature to channel. So when severed/stilled, it is a partially physical wound. Perhaps, the severing that nynaeve healed was part of the link between body and soul?[/quote']

 

I think that's exactly what it was; why else would it feel cut?

J

[Mad Season]

Maybe the soul has to mature? Its obviously not a perfect copy of its former self or else people wouldn't lose their memories/insanity when they are reborn. Is there any evidence that while everything we know about channeling is directly related to the soul somehow stilling is completely physical? And also if it is physical that means people who can't channel can be severed, which we have no knowledge of. This seems like a good strategy to prevent male channelers, just sever every boy when they are born.

[HighLordXanthus]

I never said it was completely physical, just that it is connected to the body. It is not a copy at all when reborn by the wheel. It is the exact same soul.

 

Think of it as a tree. Every year, a tree grows a new ring, becoming bigger, taller, rougher bark, more branches. In a very real sense it dies every winter. And every spring it grows a little differently, but all the former experiences of the tree are there in it's core. So in life ever soul is like the newest year's growth.

 

Birgitte, who was tied to the wheel, existed in tel'aran'rhoid was like a crossection of that tree, all the memories bared and excessable.

 

Rand, his soul and body twisted by the taint of the DO on saidin, scoured away part of that block, perhaps like taking an ax to that tree exposing a previous incarnation.

 

The body is the visable surface of the tree, its bark, its leaves. The soul it that which is beneath....

 

Sorry all, got a little out there on this one, but I hope you can sift through it to get what I was trying to get across :shock:

[HighLordXanthus]

:? ...reads what he just wrote... wtf!?

 

any way...

 

every incarnation of every soul is different, but there are given aspects that would almost always come through. In rebirth, whether by the wheel or the DO's hand, stilling/severing would not re-manifest.

[Mad Season]

Yes I agree stilling definetly wouldn't effect someone whose reborn but I think there's a difference between being reborn and transmigrated. And that it could effect someone whose been transmigrated.

 

Edit: Just to clarify, when someone is "reborn" they lose memories/taint etc. But when someone is transmigrated they are the exact same basically, thats why I'm saying stilling could carry over.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Maybe the soul has to mature? Its obviously not a perfect copy of its former self or else people wouldn't lose their memories/insanity when they are reborn. Is there any evidence that while everything we know about channeling is directly related to the soul somehow stilling is completely physical? And also if it is physical that means people who can't channel can be severed' date=' which we have no knowledge of. This seems like a good strategy to prevent male channelers, just sever every boy when they are born.[/quote']

 

I don't understand why you keep insisting that for the ability to channel to be partially physical you would have to be able to sever a non-channeller. Not everyone can channel because not everyone has the physical link. We're told in the books that you can try to sever a non channeller but it has no effect beyond the rough treatment he would get before hand. The reason is that, a non channeller doesn't have anything to sever.

 

There are a couple of issues with using summary severing of infant boys as a way to prevent male channellers though. One problem is that you are going to make any infant that you find with the ability suicidal before he even cuts his teeth. This includes those that could be taught, but would never touch the source on there own. The ones that would never touch the source unaided can live a perfectly normal and productive life if left alone, so you would be performing a slow execution on someone who didn't commit any crime. What you suggest does come close to what the Black Ajah attempted after the Aiel War, but they were trying to make sure the Dragon wouldn't be able to channel. Non Black Ajah would want to first make sure the channeller wasn't the prophesied Dragon. If you sever all infant boys you wouldn't allow that determination to be made. The idea also just isn't practical. Babies are born every day in every city and region all over the world. You would never be able to keep up with all of the births to attempt to sever every male child.

 

The way I see it, there are two things that point to a definite physical component. The first is that a person can actually be severed, either deliberately or accidentally. If there wasn't a physical connection, there shouldn't be any way that they can be permanently cut off from the Source. The second, and maybe stronger reason, is that there are strong implications that the ability to channel is partially genetic and only physical characteristics can be passed from parent to child. That is why the Two Rivers, with it's relatively isolated gene pool, had such an unusual number of people that would either channel on there own or could be taught to channel. I think in one of the books (possibly The Eye of the World) there is mention that there are a couple girls a year that die from their first touchings of the source.

 

Personnally, I don't see any real problem with the idea that the body the soul is placed in needs to have that physical component and so must come from a person that can channel. We know from the later books that there are still quite a number of people around who can be very powerful channellers, if they are taught to touch the source. This wasn't known previously because the White Tower didn't actively seek people out.

 

If there was no physical link, it wouldn't be necessary to get "the best that could be found in the Borderlands" (not a direct quote) to use for Osan'gar and Aran'gar because any body would have done. They needed the best to avoid limiting Aran'gar and Osan'gar's abilities. When the need for a body for Lanfear came up, they were not able to aquire one that was good enough to support her previous ability level, and so now she is reduced.