Who sent the trollocs to the manor house in KoD?

[Kadere]

I don't see how it was Moridin, and then Moridin is the one so pissed at the meeting. Moridin would be throughing it all in the faces of the other Forsaken if he'd been the one to do it.

 

Demandred is a possibilty. Aran'gar thinks to herself, "A remarkable admission, coming from him. Or an attempt to hide being the one who had worn Sammael as a disguise. She would like very much to know who had begun playing her own game. Or whether Sammael really was alive." (p. 147) So even Aran'gar thinks Demandred could be the one.

 

ooooo... actually I was just thinking! Demandred, Semirhage, and Messana have an alliance. Semirhage KNOWS exactly where Rand is (she invited him to met the Daughter of the Nine Moons). Semirhage is also good at illusion (she desguised herself as the Daughter of the Nine Moons). MAYBE Demandred got Semirhage to desguise him as Sammael, and then Demandred went for the attack. BOTH Semirhage and Demandred are very calm during the conversation about Sammael, and very quick to buy that Sammael is the one who did it. Moridin uses the term "resurfaced" not "reborn", so he must think that Sammael DID NOT die, which we KNOW he did. Sammael couldn't have been reborn and desguised himself in his old body. Also, after the attack we have Semirhage's screw up and capture. This could have been plan B in case the Trollocs failed.

 

It's either something like that, or Sammael is reborn, which would be SWEET!

[Mardragon]

Small knife of Dreams spoilers... (probably not needed at this point but never mind....)

 

 

 

 

I don't think anyone has actually seen Sammael (be it someone else disguised or him... the latter unlikely as he's either dead or reincarnated). I think Moridin thought it was him (or pretended he did) because of the tactics used sending thousands of trollocs and Myrdraal into the ways.

 

Personally I'd still go for Demandred. In their meeting in Knife of Dreams he seemed to act like he was hiding something when Moridin brought up Sammael's apparent reappearance. I'm also not convinced that Taim (even if he has been given a 'forsaken mark' if such a thing exists) would be able to access that many trollocs. On saying that, I wouldn't discount the possibility. We should also bear in mind that he is probably the longest living male channeller born in the modern age to remain sane. Could this be due to the same protection from the taint that the male forsaken have? I've thought that Taim probably turned darkfriend a while after he set up the Asha'man under Rand, mainly owing to not getting his own way with Rand. I now wonder if it went back much further than that.

 

There is actually one other person who has control over trollocs besides the forsaken and Padan Fain. Namely the man the wolves call 'Slayer'. Yes I know it doesn't seem to be entirely his style as he is mostly portrayed as a lone assassin. However, he did bring trollocs through the ways to the Two Rivers as proven by their battle cry "ISAM! ISAM!". Also, although he does work for the forsaken he does have his own agenda and probably wouldn't consider himself under the same restrictions as the forsaken in killing Rand. Look at what he did to that couple in the inn thinking them Rand and Min.

 

Oh and whilst it was rather wasteful, bear in mind Rand did almost get killed in that attack. It's always easy to say 'that was a waste of time' in hindsight when we know the attack did ultimately fail.

[Jedimuppet]

Small knife of Dreams spoilers... (probably not needed at this point but never mind....)

 

 

 

 

I don't think anyone has actually seen Sammael (be it someone else disguised or him... the latter unlikely as he's either dead or reincarnated). I think Moridin thought it was him (or pretended he did) because of the tactics used sending thousands of trollocs and Myrdraal into the ways.

 

Personally I'd still go for Demandred. In their meeting in Knife of Dreams he seemed to act like he was hiding something when Moridin brought up Sammael's apparent reappearance. I'm also not convinced that Taim (even if he has been given a 'forsaken mark' if such a thing exists) would be able to access that many trollocs. On saying that' date=' I wouldn't discount the possibility. We should also bear in mind that he is probably the longest living male channeller born in the modern age to remain sane. Could this be due to the same protection from the taint that the male forsaken have? I've thought that Taim probably turned darkfriend a while after he set up the Asha'man under Rand, mainly owing to not getting his own way with Rand. I now wonder if it went back much further than that.

 

There is actually one other person who has control over trollocs besides the forsaken and Padan Fain. Namely the man the wolves call 'Slayer'. Yes I know it doesn't seem to be entirely his style as he is mostly portrayed as a lone assassin. However, he did bring trollocs through the ways to the Two Rivers as proven by their battle cry "ISAM! ISAM!". Also, although he does work for the forsaken he does have his own agenda and probably wouldn't consider himself under the same restrictions as the forsaken in killing Rand. Look at what he did to that couple in the inn thinking them Rand and Min.

 

Oh and whilst it was rather wasteful, bear in mind Rand did almost get killed in that attack. It's always easy to say 'that was a waste of time' in hindsight when we know the attack did ultimately fail.[/quote']

 

Yeah, the attack didn't fail because the plan was bad, it failed because team light was *very* lucky.

J

[rd2000]

Rand's own POV stated that Logain and his Aes-Sedai/Ashamen made the difference in the battle. Logain arrived shortly before the attack. Hence it was a smart attack, as any pre-attack intel would indicate that the attacking force was suffecient for the task.

[Luckers]

And because the plan was bad.... i mean, you can't really get around the fact that for a forsaken, well aware of the lights capabilities and the way channalers can fight, its a very basic, and unlikely to succeed plan.

 

Jedi, i never suggested the mark was fake. My entire thing was about how its credible that Taim was given a propprer chosen mark. We know Shadar Haren can give them, and there is an abundence of reason as to why he would give one to taim. That being said, they arn't traceable. Moridin's said his deduction came from talking to the trollocs and learning what the man looked like, and both and he and the others clearly had some doubt in their mind as to wether it actually was Sammael. If the marks were unique and traceable, there would have been no question in their minds.

 

That whole elaborate thing about Semirhage and Demandred... A) Semi never knew where Rand was. Her cronies met with his cronies, and arranged a nuetral meeting place. Amongst his cronies was Logain, which makes it unlikely that they were compelled or anything else. B) Demandred wouldn't need Semirhage to take on a disguise of Sammael's shape, he could do it himself. C) Semirhages plan had a lot more going for it, success wise, then the trolloc assault. Additionally, that Moridin said 'resurfaced' does not indicate that he thinks sammael isn't dead, just that he's keep the others from knowing he wasn't present in Shadar Logoth, and given what occured in SL, and the weakness that puts in him as a leader, he had a great deal of reason to do that.

 

Without Taim, Demandred is the strongest possibility... It's not slayer, he doesn't have the mark, and had authority over the trollocs only with the say so of the Forsaken in charge of him. But still, the evidence for Demandred is weak... a simple feeling that its in his nature--which, indeed, if you take a close look at him, it really isn't. Meanwhile Taim has motive, means, it matches his M.O., and the major reasons against doing an attack like that... fear of disobeying moridin, knowledge that it would fail... dont apply to him because he wan't aware of them.

[rd2000]

And because the plan was bad.... i mean' date=' you can't really get around the fact that for a forsaken, well aware of the lights capabilities and the way channalers can fight, its a very basic, and unlikely to succeed plan.

 

[/quote']

 

But, as I stated above, Rand's own POV states that the attack WOULD HAVE SUCCEEDED if not for Logain and co. And any pre-attack intelligence would not have accounted for Logain. Therefore, it was a well-planned and orchestrated attack that would have worked if not for Logain's untimely (for the Dark) arrival.

[Jedimuppet]

And because the plan was bad.... i mean' date=' you can't really get around the fact that for a forsaken, well aware of the lights capabilities and the way channalers can fight, its a very basic, and unlikely to succeed plan.

 

[/quote']

 

But, as I stated above, Rand's own POV states that the attack WOULD HAVE SUCCEEDED if not for Logain and co. And any pre-attack intelligence would not have accounted for Logain. Therefore, it was a well-planned and orchestrated attack that would have worked if not for Logain's untimely (for the Dark) arrival.

 

I agree. The only flaw in teh plan was that it couldn't handle the appearance of many AS and asha'man at once. When commiting forces, you have to make those kinds of decisions based on what they're believed to be able to bring into play. It would be like saying mat who's plans always succeed would be a failure if during a battle he learned the seanchean damane learned to travel and an army of grolm overwhelmed him.

 

Sometimes you have to accept unknowns and go on anyway.

J

[Luckers]

The fact that the plan almost succeeded does not make it a well planned attack. Rand himself could have delt with the Myrrdraal had it not been for LTT's wish to die.

[Jeppit Groccin]

Luckers, I agree that it wasn't Slayer, but why do you think he doesn't have the Mark?

 

Who else brought the Trollocs to the Two Rivers in TSR? I don't recall Fain being around there, and none of the other Forsaken seem to care where Rand grew up, so Slayer had to have been able to control the Trollocs and send them at the towns.

[Jedimuppet]

The fact that the plan almost succeeded does not make it a well planned attack. Rand himself could have delt with the Myrrdraal had it not been for LTT's wish to die.

 

He couldn't have dealt with anything if LTT didn't suddenly weave deathgates and fireblossoms, and if all those channeling reinforcements hadn't shown up.

J

[Luckers]

Jeppit, Slayer was given the trollocs to hunt down the traitor, Fain. The attack was not about the two rivers, it was about killing Fain. Fain used that to carry out his promise to Rand, that he would scour the Two Rivers. As to why he doesn't have the mark... its been said several times that only the Chosen have the mark that will force obediance from shadowspawn, and additionally we know that Slayer has a channeling bannefactor.

 

Jedi, The last the Forsaken saw Rand he was with a group of channelers, male and female both, along with Callandor and the Choedan Kal... the plan was stupid, from a Forsaken point of view.(Additionally, whilst LTT's weave were all shiny and cool, they arn't the only destructive weaves. I think Rand would have been ok either way.)

 

On the other hand Taim, who may have some slight understanding of the power rand has, had no understanding of how that translated out against a non-channeling force, and finally taim has shown himself willing to attack impulsively on the off chance of victory.

[Jedimuppet]

Jeppit' date=' Slayer was given the trollocs to hunt down the traitor, Fain. The attack was not about the two rivers, it was about killing Fain. Fain used that to carry out his promise to Rand, that he would scour the Two Rivers. As to why he doesn't have the mark... its been said several times that only the Chosen have the mark that will force obediance from shadowspawn, and additionally we know that Slayer has a channeling bannefactor.

 

Jedi, The last the Forsaken saw Rand he was with a group of channelers, male and female both, along with Callandor and the Choedan Kal... the plan was stupid, from a Forsaken point of view.(Additionally, whilst LTT's weave were all shiny and cool, they arn't the only destructive weaves. I think Rand would have been ok either way.)

 

On the other hand Taim, who may have some slight understanding of the power rand has, had no understanding of how that translated out against a non-channeling force, and finally taim has shown himself willing to attack impulsively on the off chance of victory.[/quote']

 

A lot of really slim chances went together to make Rand able to win that battle. If you were able to calculate the odds of Rand surviving that attack, they would have been slim. There's always an element of risk, but the forces were sufficient until the reinforcements came and Age of legend weaves magically returned. *shrug*

J

[Logain Ablar]

First of all, isn't Moridin the only one that could know where Rand is, via their balefire bond thing? The others have no idea where he's at, but Moridins face appears inside Rand's head and he talks about being "aware" of him.

Second, if it was Taim, why wouldn't he just send a hundred of his Asha'man followers along with the Trollocs? I'm suspicious of Taim because of his rage at not finding the location of Rand, but I can't see any way for him to accomplish the attack.

[HighLordXanthus]

I agree with the idea of moridin being the culprit. The growing connection between him and rand could very well have been what gave his location away.

[Luckers]

Moridin doesn't know where rand is through the bond, though he claims to be able to find him through his ta'verenism, though Graendal in turn mocks this. Additionally Moridin had just issued another no-kill order, likely because he feared the effect rands death would have on him due to the bond, which makes the attack pointless.

 

As to why Taim didn't send a hundred asha'men...

1. The attacker clearly didn't want either the light or the dark knowing it was him, and no one else has a hundred asha'men under their belt. If Rand died the Dark would come down on him because of the no-kill order, if rand didn't then rand would know it was him that ordered it.

2. If he was indeed behind the attack i suspect it was an 'off chance' thing. This wasn't his big move, he isn't yet ready to reveal himself in event of failure. He did the same thing with the attack in PoD, you will recall.

 

Jedi, you must agree that from a Forsaken's point of view the attack wouldn't have been close. A Forsaken must concider the fact that Rand must surely have callandor and the two choedan kal on hand... after all, they themselves would never let those things out of hand, and Rand was last seen using them. It would be pointless.