Most Severe Aiel War possible

[Davian93]

I would suggest that that is precisely where the Aiel get their wood. We know that there is constant trading occuring along the Cliffs of Dawn--and RJ has shown himself aware that they ration the use of wood with the whole deal about Chiefs Chairs and all that, so i assume he would be aware of the situation.

 

~sighs~

 

Yes of course.  They barely have enough wood for chairs but they have enough for tens of millions of arrows and millions of spear shafts.  Or perhaps RJ figured he was writing a book and everything natural resource wise didn't have to add up.  We'll also ignore that they are sustaining a massive population for a desert environment where it hasn't rained in 3000 years and they get very limited water from underground aqualifiers. As for tre Shara trade, don't you think that we would have heard at least something about it especially considering we've gotten tons of information on trading (unroll every bolt of silk otherwise you'll find only the outside to be silk, etc, etc).  Why don't we just admit that its a slight gap in the plot and get over it.

[Luckers]

Sigh? How condescending. Now i feel bad for using it myself.

 

I said ration Davian, not that they didn't have enough wood for chairs, but that they used all the wood they gained to make weapons. Which makes perfect sense since they rely on trade for access to the wood, the source of supply, however prodigous, would therefore be conditioned on circumstance. Therefore in the Waste the wood goes to the most important item, weapons.

 

Furthermore your comment about deserts is problematic on two fronts. For one, the Waste has a massive system of underground waterways, and have been able to utilize them to the fullest extent because of the Wise Ones, and secondly the waste is not a naturally formed desert, it has not resulted from thousands of years of climate change, it is a waste resulting from a specific catastrophic incident. Therefore any claims about the watertable based on the state of naturally formed deserts would be inherently inaccurate.

 

Finally, 'tons'? We have one random comment made specifically about the untrustworthiness of Sharans, and rolls of silk make a much more clear example of attempts to cheat than what... trading fake wood?

 

It may be that your units of measurement are different than mine, but we don't have 'tons' of information. We have the fact that trading occurs, and that one of the items traded is silk. Forgive me, but i fail to see your position.

[Davian93]

Forgive me, but i fail to see your position.

 

Forgive me if I fail to see yours as well then.  Yes, you are right, RJ never makes the slightest mistake.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yes, you are right, RJ never makes the slightest mistake.

 

Actually, by his own admission, RJ made plenty of them.

 

This just isn't one of them.  There are more than enough indications of trade along with the Sharans to allow for the possibility of trade for wood ... and Shara is a single kingdom the size of Randland, with only the Aiel and the Sea Folk for trading partners.  That fact alone is reason enough to assume that all sorts of goods are traded along the Cliffs of Dawn ... especially when there is such an obvious market among the Aiel.

 

And as far as the Aiel resupplying on this side of the Dragonwall ... not only is there plenty of lumber in Randland, but they looted wherever they went as well.  You can be sure that in addition to, or as part of, the Fifth, they took military supplies, which would include weapons or the materials for weapons.

 

Look ... if it makes you feel better to think it was a mistake, then do so.  Just understand that your opinion does not make it so.

 

Finally, if you're going to condescending ... you may not want to spell "aquifers" like this: "aqualifiers".  You made it sound like the Aiel were applying for a job.

[Davian93]

Look ... if it makes you feel better to think it was a mistake, then do so.

 

Lol...Thank you for your permission, RAW.  Ironic, since it seems that so many people take what you and Luckers say as gospel on these boards. I am merely pointing out that there are other interpretations to the same information.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Ironic, since it seems that so many people take what you and Luckers say as gospel on these boards.

 

Thats known as "the result of being right an awful lot".

 

I am merely pointing out that there are other interpretations to the same information.

 

Yes.  Otherwise known as "misinterpretations".

[Davian93]

Thats known as "the result of being right an awful lot".

 

Or the result of people being afraid to argue with someone just because of their post count.  Come over to Theoryland and debate some of your theories.  You'd be amazed what happens when you're not surrounded by yes men.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Or the result of people being afraid to argue with someone just because of their post count.  Come over to Theoryland and debate some of your theories.  You'd be amazed what happens when you're not surrounded by yes men.

 

You know ... there's a saying, once written by a wise man named Joel Rosenberg.  It goes like this:

 

"When you know not whereof you speak, your mouth is best used for chewing."

 

If you think that nobody argues with me here ... then reading is something you might want to look into.  But I'll let everyone else have at you for calling all them my "yes men".  This should be good.

 

Its interesting though, and a little sad, that your objections have degenerated in to, "Yeah, well, uh, come try that in MY yard!".

[Luckers]

I very much side with Robert (shock horror), and concider your conduct in this thread to be pointless... you have so far not addressed any of the issues against your position. Let me state them concisely for you.

 

1. RJ has shown direct awareness of the lack of wood in a landscape such as the Waste as early as book four (through reference to the Chiefs Chairs) meaning its not a mistake.

 

2. RJ provided a direct method of trade, curiously within a chapter of the comment about the use of chairs, in the Sharans.

 

3. That trade source is based in a nation more than capable of supplying the wood for aiel use allowing that the Aiel only use it for weapons, and the occaisional formal function. The word for this is rations. Rations.

 

To which, as near as i can tell, your only response has been a dismissive statement that on theoryland you'd be accepted as fact. Sadly, we require logic and evidence here.

 

[Davian93]

To which, as near as i can tell, your only response has been a dismissive statement that on theoryland you'd be accepted as fact.

 

Actually, that's not what I said at all.  I said there would be better debate on the subject as opposed to a simple rejection as has happened here.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I said there would be better debate on the subject as opposed to a simple rejection as has happened here.

 

Davian ... you haven't offered anything to debate about.  The sum of your response to our arguments is "nuh-uh!"

 

I'm genuinely confused by your refusal to even consider that a continent sized nation [shara] with well-established merchant ties to a group that clearly needs wood [the Aiel], would be able to -gasp- provide wood to that market!

[Davian93]

I consider the wood a secondary issue.  I think the population levels of the Aiel are still far too high despite Luckers arguments (which are logical even if I don't agree with them).  All I'm saying is that I don't think RJ is perfect and he ignored certain things despite his extreme attention to detail on alot of other things.  Also I consider a symptom of a greater problem when you look at the sudden massive sizes of the armies that the western nations have been able to raise.  They just dont gel with comments in the early books about populations, military size, etc.

 

On the wood, the Aiel have never once mentioned the wood trade with Shara and I really think that we would have gotten some hint of it had it been going on as massive as it would have to be to supply hundreds of thousands of Aiel with weapons.

[RobertAlexWillis]

On the wood, the Aiel have never once mentioned the wood trade with Shara and I really think that we would have gotten some hint of it had it been going on as massive as it would have to be to supply hundreds of thousands of Aiel with weapons.

 

They didn't mention any kind of trade except silk, to illustrate the deceptive nature of the Sharans.  Do you honestly think that silk is the only thing that gets traded?

 

A rundown of all the items traded in all the tradeholds would be pointless.  But the simplest rules of economics dictate that if there is a market for a commodity (and the is one for wood among the Aiel), and someone else has that commodity (and there's every reason to believe the Sharans have wood), that trade will occur.

[Luckers]

To which, as near as i can tell, your only response has been a dismissive statement that on theoryland you'd be accepted as fact.

 

Actually, that's not what I said at all.  I said there would be better debate on the subject as opposed to a simple rejection as has happened here.

 

I'm curious as to what you define as 'better debate'. Since, again, so far all you have raised against our points is... well... nothing.

 

I think I have been pretty calm about your ongoing dismissiveness. And don't get me wrong, you want to be dismiss things. Fine. Only, now its time for you to step up to the plate. Actually address the points now, please.

 

I consider the wood a secondary issue.  I think the population levels of the Aiel are still far too high despite Luckers arguments (which are logical even if I don't agree with them).  All I'm saying is that I don't think RJ is perfect and he ignored certain things despite his extreme attention to detail on alot of other things.  Also I consider a symptom of a greater problem when you look at the sudden massive sizes of the armies that the western nations have been able to raise.  They just dont gel with comments in the early books about populations, military size, etc.

 

On the wood, the Aiel have never once mentioned the wood trade with Shara and I really think that we would have gotten some hint of it had it been going on as massive as it would have to be to supply hundreds of thousands of Aiel with weapons.

 

So, umm, your 'sigh' and following comment... personal opinion you tried to pawn off as actual fact.

 

You're not at theoryland anymore lad. Time to up your game.

 

 

[The winds of Time]

Sup fellows, since we're throwing theorys in the hat i might as well throw mine in as well,

 

1st off, if we plan for the worst we got to see pretty much ALL of the septs, and societys coming in instead of just 2 septs (as stated in the books) now that is ALOT of aiel warriors. now many kingdoms (especially Carhain (sp?)) had troble with just 2 septs, punch in all of them and makes the original war seem like a pea shooter next to the bazooka.

 

2nd: the aiel war was targeting the tree killing carhein king (not too smart of a king) imagine if the aiel decided for conquest. nothing would stop their advances as they would overwhelm their opponets and adapt to the wetlander strategys. Aiel battles from the books give me a rough estimate of how many wetlander deaths to aiel deaths, roughly aiel would take down 3 wetlanders in a ranged fight before kicking the bucket, but put aiel in hand to hand and that number jumps to at least 5 wetlanders per aiel fatality. this added with their numbers, ooh boy thats a pretty one sided fight....

 

3rd: Grand strong holds held by wetlanders wouldnt keep aiel out if they tried, (ex; stone of tear) aiel are very very intellegent and 'know how to crack an egg' as the saying goes. The white tower would probably be the safest place to be seeing as its aes sedi using the OP to protect themselves and wise ones not participating in the battle (following Jie'toh before rand came around) no wiseones using the power against aes sedi, means that aes sedi have a upper hand in the tower, that combined with warder power means that the tower is almost invinceable. the tower could be starved out if the aiel took over the town of tar valon itself around the tower, using aiel gurreilla tactics to avoid being seen after the populus was wiped out or had fled. now this is the time before traveling was rediscoverd so aes sedi and warders alike would starve without the north and south harbors to supply them, and if the chains were severed all you need is one aiel with a bow and some flame arrows and boom...no more supply ship.

 

4th: if the aiel took the fifth out of every single place they conquered, then they would have a constant resupply everytime a township or village fell. that combine with the everpresent wiseones and blacksmiths and gai'shan and other positions of aiel society following the warriors, they themselves provide a resupply of weapons, hunters and gatherers, healing even if the wise one cant channel due to herbal remidies, and it being the WET lands they wouldnt have to look hard for water. this little supply chain would keep the aiel going and going like the energizer bunny just keeping up and maybe spreading aiel settlers around for farmers to put close farms to the lines, well you see what im getting at.

 

5th: Aiel society patterns are not like the wetlands, they dont dabble around with politics like the carheinins, meaning that there is minamal social rot and aiel not killing one another for a mad power crave. (sevanna isnt on the scene yet and she was triggered by the car'c'carn being named so this is probably correct at the time) Aiel are also alot smarter on the battle feild, if their commander falls they just keep going and dont get cold feet, unlike wetlander armies who rely on nobles for orders, no wetlander genrals, no order around armies.

 

Overall: The aiel would kick butt, wetlanders being like they are and aiel being as hard and well trained..., its no contest. If they decided they wanted the wetlands they would have it even if the opposing armies had aes sedi on their side, aes sedi are not impervious to arrows and aes sedi in genral last long in battle only if there are ALOT of aes sedi grouped together, like the white tower. put aes sedi on the feild and they could be flanked, rear ended or just plain overwhelemd by numbers. sure one aes sedi is the equivelent of maybe a good 400-500 aiel warriors, maybe somewhere in the thousands if there were a few aes sedi with bonded warders, but numbers of really really skilled warriors would fry them like a egg in a pan. the OP taken away as an advantage by wetlanders, they dont stand a chance.

[cloglord]

Lol...Thank you for your permission, RAW.  Ironic, since it seems that so many people take what you and Luckers say as gospel on these boards. I am merely pointing out that there are other interpretations to the same information.

 

You know I'm one of the first people to call down either RAW or Luckers for highandedness or condecension, in fact I'll do it now.

 

Quote

Ironic, since it seems that so many people take what you and Luckers say as gospel on these boards.

 

Thats known as "the result of being right an awful lot".

 

This is an example of RAW being too full of himself, while it is true that on most factual matters from the books he is most often correct, he his wrong often enough to disqualify him from the gospel category.  This statement from RAW is even worse, if by it, he means that his theories are "right an awful lot," because simply most of his theories, like all of our theories, are as yet unproven.  You are correct Davian that being popular does not equal being correct.  It does not automatically disqualify either Luckers or RAW from being correct however, nor does it keep them from having valid points.

 

I am about to make history here, as I will say uncategorically, that I agree with both Luckers and RAW.  It is certainly alright to disagree with either of them, I do so on a regular basis.  However their popularity does not make their opinions or theories any less popular or likely, only your  arguments can do that to the extent that you debate the issue at hand, and offer your own explaination. 

 

For example, Not only is it likely that the Aiel trade with the Sharans for wood, we have a known example of Aiel trading for wood with the Ogier.  It is certainly a commodity that the Aiel trade for, they obviously possess enough wood to produce the weapons that they have, it seeems to follow that if we know they have it and we know that they trade for it, that the wood they had came from trade.

 

As for your arguments about the Waste sustaining the population that it does, I would add to Lucker's perfectly valid argument about the dreamwalker dowsing, that we know absolutely nothing about the specifics of the waste.  Yes, we know it is dry and we know it is hot, but is it a desert like the American southwest, like the Sahara, or like the Australian outback?  Each climate differs in pretty signifigant ways, RJ never told us what the specific temperatures were, the average humidity, the windspeeds, etc.  To categorically say that the waste could not support x number of people, without some sort of specific and objective data is an exersize in futility.  With that said, you could be right, but you still haven't convinced me, prove yourself, or barring that you could get someone from Theoryland to come and do it for you.

[Luckers]

Oh come on Cloglord. You know we are always right--it's because we're pretty, and pretty people are always right. It's one of the laws of physics.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

This is an example of RAW being too full of himself, while it is true that on most factual matters from the books he is most often correct, he his wrong often enough to disqualify him from the gospel category.

 

Thank you for making my point.  I'm not the one who said my word was "gospel".

[cloglord]

Thank you for making my point.  I'm not the one who said my word was "gospel".

 

You're welcome.  I suspect I know who you thought of first when you said,...

 

If you think that nobody argues with me here ...

[RobertAlexWillis]

Indeed.  ;D  With friends like you, cloggy, who needs enemies?  ;)