Lanfear, in an odd sort of way got what she wanted

[RobertAlexWillis]

Its not ever stated that the Forsaken specifically know about transmigration, but none of them seem to be surprised when Ishamael comes back ... so, I would guess that she did know about it.  There is even speculation among them that Cyndane is Lanfear ... the only reason some of them think that she isn't is because she's not as strong in the Power as Lanfear was.

 

Admittedly, this is all after the fact, so it is possible that they didn't know transmigration could be done.  But given their lack of surprise, I would guess that they did know.

[Child of Lir]

There are actually many possibilities for the cause of Lanfear's death. As RAW says, she could have been executed by the Finn for her Shadow connection, or committed suicide. Although, I do find that second one unlikely - she's surely too proud for that?

 

Other possibilities include being murdered by Moiraine at some time following their departure from "this" world, although again, not very likely; being killed trying to escape from the Finn - she must have got out somehow; and death being the price she paid for having her wishes granted / for not setting a price, just as (nearly) happened with Mat. Mat was only saved from dying because Rand was there, but if Lanfear was thrown out of the Tower of Ghenjei and hung from a nearby tree, for example, then there would be no-one around to cut her down.

 

However, whenever and wherever she died, she was almost certainly resurrected in "Randland". We have no way of knowing (yet) if the DO can collect souls from outside of the world, but even if he can how likely is is that the Finn had a freshly dead female body to hand ready to transmigrate her soul into? This suggests to me that her death occurred in "Randland", so that her soul was released into that world's "spirit zone" (for want of a better word) ready to be collected and transmigrated. If she died in "Finnland", we have no way of knowing where her soul would end up and if the DO could catch it. The fact that questions touching the Shadow have dire effects inside the ter'angreal suggests to me that the DO does not have the same control in "Finnland" as in "Randland".

[Davian93]

I had not encountered the idea that Cyndane's body was originally Cabriana Mecandes. I'm not sure if i think it likely--im guessing the time constraints on Semirhage likely meant conciderable damage was done to that body in the questioning. Furthermore, it strikes me as stupid to have one of the Forsaken claim she is dead (and Aran'gar specifically tells Delana that Cabriana will not reapear) and then put another forsaken in her body--it leaves too much of a possibility of discovery. Additionally, Cabriana's hair is described as golden blonde, whilst Cyndane's is 'silvery'.

 

Other than the slight difference in hair color, blonde and silvery (obviously not a natural hue) the timing and descriptions of both match up pretty well. Semi, if you'll recall really didn't have to do that much damage as her work on Cabriana's warder pretty much softened her up for Semi's questioning.  Also, its not as stupid as you may think, Luckers. Finding a suitable body for transmigration is not exactly an easy task in a world where barely 1% of the populace can ever learn to channel (a prerequisite for transmigrating a forsaken)  As for Aran'gar telling Delana she is dead, if you reread the scene you'll notice that she doesnt exactly say that:

 

TITLE: Lord of Chaos 

CHAPTER: 30 - To Heal Again 

"It should be no problem so long as you know enough of Cabriana to support your tale. I can't help you there; I never met her above twice. I suppose there is no chance of her appearing to spoil your story?" 

"No chance at all." Again that quick, mocking smile. "And I could recite Cabriana's life. I know things she had forgotten herself."

 

She says she won't appear again...and she won't (she's got different hair (color anyway), and she is in a mind-trap to Moridin. She is hardly free to roam around and been seen by AS. 

 

But if you compare the descriptions of both:

 

Cyndane:

 

"The girl, Cyndane, trotted at his heels like a bosomy little silver-haired pet in red-and-black."

 

"Moridin tilted up Cyndane's chin on his fingertips. Resentment burned in her eyes, but her face might have been a doll's unchanging face. She certainly accepted his attentions like a pliable doll. "Cyndane knows many things," Moridin said softly, "and she tells me everything she knows. Everything." The tiny woman's expression never altered, but she trembled visibly. "

 

"As for that beautiful, bosomy little pale-haired doll Cyndane. . ."

 

"In strong contrast to her ice-maiden appearance, Cyndane's voice was breathy and sultry, a voice made for lying on soft pillows wearing very little. There was considerable heat in those big blue eyes, now. A searing heat."

 

So we have a fairly short, petite, pale haired female who is beautiful, bosomy and has blue eyes.

 

On to Cabriana:

 

"A pale-haired silk-clad woman hung spread-eagled from nothing in the middle of the room, glaring at her defiantly. An Aes Sedai. Semirhage hated Aes Sedai"

 

"Or even to walk within it, in truth, though most are tolerant of a new sister. Cabriana, will you show them the way?" A pale-eyed sister, light golden hair hanging almost to her waist, spread her blue-slashed skirts in a slight curtsy."

 

Another petite pale haired pale eyed (blue is pale eyed) woman who disappears almost exactly the same time as Lanfear would have to be transmigrated if she died among the Finn. 

 

Yes I know you're still thinking: But Dav, she had gold and Cyndane has silvery pale hair. Yeah, hair color is very easy to change and is the easiest way to change someone's appearance. You have already said yourself if would be silly to have Cabriana's body recognized so this would help in that regard.  Also, Cabriana was subjected to a massive amount of stress, being tortured to death and questioned by Semi. Stress is the easiest way to change hair color or to have hair lose its color as she was already a very light hair color.  Either way the coincidence in timing, the difficulty in getting an appropriate body to transmigrate into and the similarity in appearance all add up to a likely scenario that instead of wasting Cabriana's body after questioning they used it to bring back Lanfear.

 

[lou]

i thought it was already established that it would be extremely unlikely for lanfear or moiraine to be able to bargain with the finns.

this is only my opinion, but the reason i feel that lanfear may have either killed herself or caused her own death would be because there is no other way out of finnland, death or release.the finns are not proving to be swayed into letting moiraine gain an early parole, so i think it unlikely that lanfear got that option.

her pride really wasnt all that relevant at the time. death or imprisonment? what would she choose..........

[Luckers]

Other than the slight difference in hair color, blonde and silvery (obviously not a natural hue) the timing and descriptions of both match up pretty well. Semi, if you'll recall really didn't have to do that much damage as her work on Cabriana's warder pretty much softened her up for Semi's questioning.  Also, its not as stupid as you may think, Luckers. Finding a suitable body for transmigration is not exactly an easy task in a world where barely 1% of the populace can ever learn to channel (a prerequisite for transmigrating a forsaken)  As for Aran'gar telling Delana she is dead, if you reread the scene you'll notice that she doesnt exactly say that

 

I'm sorry, on what basis do you state that the body must have the ability to channel in order for transmigration to occur? That seems in complete contradiction to what we have witnessed in regaurds to transmigration and the subjects ability to channel--indeed, it would essentially make Aran'gar's existence impossible.

 

Beyond that what is your basis for saying that silver hair must not be natural? That seems a pretty baseless comment--plenty of people have naturally silver blonde hair. I mean, its not impossible, but you seem to do a lot of these little assumptions and then take it as absolute fact.

 

As for Aran'gar telling Delana she is dead, if you reread the scene you'll notice that she doesnt exactly say that:

 

 

Quote

TITLE: Lord of Chaos 

CHAPTER: 30 - To Heal Again 

"It should be no problem so long as you know enough of Cabriana to support your tale. I can't help you there; I never met her above twice. I suppose there is no chance of her appearing to spoil your story?" 

"No chance at all." Again that quick, mocking smile. "And I could recite Cabriana's life. I know things she had forgotten herself."

 

She says she won't appear again...and she won't (she's got different hair (color anyway), and she is in a mind-trap to Moridin. She is hardly free to roam around and been seen by AS. 

 

If you re-read my first post you'll say i phrased it precisely that way. Beyond that though, the point was specifically that it would be stupid to alliby one forsaken with a story of a dead Aes Sedai's confession and then set up another in that Aes Sedai's body and have her wandering about. It either hampers her movement and effectiveness out of fear of discovery, or it risks discovery and exposes another forsaken. And we do know that Cyndane has been active in the greater world on Moridin's behalf, so she isn't hiding.

 

As for your listing of the similarities between them, i know of them already. But your stretching what you have. For instance pale-eyes, even if blue, doesn't match description with the description of Cyndane's vivid blue eyes. And what of Cyndane's breathy voice--not a match with Lanfear's so obviously reacting to some weakness in the body's vocal cords--and not a match with Cabriana's strident voice.

 

 

It's not impossible, but from a strategic standpoint it strikes me as unlikely, and we certainly don't have enough to be able to state anything with the degree of certainty that you have.

[Davian93]

I'm sorry, on what basis do you state that the body must have the ability to channel in order for transmigration to occur? That seems in complete contradiction to what we have witnessed in regaurds to transmigration and the subjects ability to channel--indeed, it would essentially make Aran'gar's existence impossible.

 

Because RJ has stated that channeling takes both a soul and a body that are capable of channeling to work.  Thus, if a channeler is transmigrated into a body that physically does not have the ability to channel they won't be able to channel.

 

After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one. By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason. There are a few other limits and constraints, but I won't go into them here, since I may want to use them in the books, and I would rather they come as a surprise if I do.

 

Date: 1996-04-02 | Location: Various 1996 Signings

Type: Book Signing | Questioner: Unknown 

  Q: "Is channeling ability strictly, or partly geneticaly based?"

  A: Partially. Worked it a bit with some friends but just left it mostly hanging.

 

The ability to channel is only partially based on the genetics (physical body)of the person channeling.

 

Date: 2000-01-01 | Location: SciFi.Com

Type: Scifi con 3.0 | Questioner: Linda 

  Q: Since the ability to channel seems to be primarily linked to the soul, if a Channeler is gentled/stilled, will this affect his/her soul in a follow life as well, as in, will the ability to Channel still be lost?

  A: No.

 

When asked straight out, RJ essentially agrees that channeling is linked to the soul but he also repeatedly tells us that there is a genetic link.  He has shown our various familiar lines that channeling is prevalent in (Elayne and her mother, The sea folk windfinders, the Ayyad, the culling of humanity etc).  When you look at both of these factors, it seems clear that there is two parts to channeling, the soul and the genetic ability.  Without each, you won't be able to channel.  Otherwise it would be very easy for the DO to find a body since there are only millions and millions of people that he could have his fades and trollocs capture.  Thus finding a "suitable" body is difficult because not only must the body be healthy, not too old or young, etc it must have the genetic ability.  Sex is irrevant as the soul likely controls sex in Randland and thus whether the person channels saidar or saidin (Halima obviously)

 

Beyond that what is your basis for saying that silver hair must not be natural? That seems a pretty baseless comment--plenty of people have naturally silver blonde hair. I mean, its not impossible, but you seem to do a lot of these little assumptions and then take it as absolute fact.

 

Because it doesnt' say silvery blonde, it says silvery.  But for arguments sake saying its silvery blonde actually supports the idea that is Cabriana's body as she had light (i.e. silvery) blonde hair.

 

And what of Cyndane's breathy voice--not a match with Lanfear's so obviously reacting to some weakness in the body's vocal cords--and not a match with Cabriana's strident voice.

 

You essentially have Lanfears soul (and pacing of speaking) speaking through another set of vocal cords, so of course it wont match up with either.

 

Beyond that though, the point was specifically that it would be stupid to alliby one forsaken with a story of a dead Aes Sedai's confession and then set up another in that Aes Sedai's body and have her wandering about. It either hampers her movement and effectiveness out of fear of discovery, or it risks discovery and exposes another forsaken. And we do know that Cyndane has been active in the greater world on Moridin's behalf, so she isn't hiding.

 

Not when you don't have alot of choices when it comes to "suitable" bodies.  The very fact that it is difficult for the DO to find a "suitable" body makes sense to not waste Cabriana (a body with the channeling gene).  And Cyndane has not exactly been out in the world.  She has w/Moggy visited Graendal, attended a Forsaken social, fought at the Choedan Kal etc.  She's hardly walking the streets of Tar Valon or Salidar. 

[Luckers]

Let me preface this response by saying I am not and have never been saying that your idea is impossible. I have being saying that A) it seems unlikely for strategic reasons, and B) You are stating a whole lot of possibilities as fact when you do not know them to be. The lack of an readily apparent alternative is not proof of a suggested possibility.

 

 

 

Because RJ has stated that channeling takes both a soul and a body that are capable of channeling to work.  Thus, if a channeler is transmigrated into a body that physically does not have the ability to channel they won't be able to channel.

 

RJ stated that genetics has an influence on the ability to channel, not that it has an influence on the tranmigration of channeling souls. Furthermore, the state of the recycled Forsaken exactly match that of their originally ability, which shows that whatever influence the genetic state has on the development of the ability to channel in natural birth, something very different is at play with the Dark One's method of transmigration.

 

Now, an argument can be made that the genetic pre-disposition is required to allow the soul the ability to channel, yet given the exact similarities between the Forsaken's previous and current states of channeling it seems very unlikely that this is a contributory influence--especially since the feminine and masculine methods of accessing the Power as diametrically opposed.

 

As I said, its possible, but it requires far too many assumptions to be taken as any sort of fact.

 

After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one. By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason. There are a few other limits and constraints, but I won't go into them here, since I may want to use them in the books, and I would rather they come as a surprise if I do.

 

Well again, here, your interpretation is possible. Yet only that. RJ's specifications show the basis for selecting bodies is primrally their physical condition. He never gets into the other limits and contraints, and given the points i raised above, assuming that the abillity to channel must be one of those limits seems to me to be a large jump in logic.

 

When asked straight out, RJ essentially agrees that channeling is linked to the soul but he also repeatedly tells us that there is a genetic link.  He has shown our various familiar lines that channeling is prevalent in (Elayne and her mother, The sea folk windfinders, the Ayyad, the culling of humanity etc).  When you look at both of these factors, it seems clear that there is two parts to channeling, the soul and the genetic ability.  Without each, you won't be able to channel.  Otherwise it would be very easy for the DO to find a body since there are only millions and millions of people that he could have his fades and trollocs capture.  Thus finding a "suitable" body is difficult because not only must the body be healthy, not too old or young, etc it must have the genetic ability.  Sex is irrevant as the soul likely controls sex in Randland and thus whether the person channels saidar or saidin (Halima obviously)

 

You see, it seems to may that that point is in my favour. Sex is not irrelevant since it proves that in terms of transmigration the natural interaction with the soul and its host body does not occur. Right there you have stated the obvious diversion between the effect the gentic state has on the soul in normal birth, and the complete lack of such in tranmigration.

 

Furthermore, whilst clearly it isn't easy to find candidates for tranmigration that in no way is evidence that it is the ability to channel that makes it hard. Or that the genetics allow for cross-gender channeling.

 

As I said, your theory has merits, but it requires far too many assumptions to be suggested as fact, or even as likely--at least to my mind, and i do understand that obviously my position is not the be all and end all... im just saying. I personally cannot buy it.

 

Because it doesnt' say silvery blonde, it says silvery.  But for arguments sake saying its silvery blonde actually supports the idea that is Cabriana's body as she had light (i.e. silvery) blonde hair.

 

Ok, silvery then. Many people have natural silvery hair.

 

And how does it? Cabriana's hair is described as golden, not silvery... if we are playing a semantics game, which we seem to be, then no... for arguments sake it doesn't support it.

 

Quote

And what of Cyndane's breathy voice--not a match with Lanfear's so obviously reacting to some weakness in the body's vocal cords--and not a match with Cabriana's strident voice.

 

 

You essentially have Lanfears soul (and pacing of speaking) speaking through another set of vocal cords, so of course it wont match up with either.

 

You misread me. Cyndane's voice is obviously the words of Lanfear's soul, and just as obviously the different mindset would indeed result in a different manner of speech, and different toning. That being said, Lanfear was never anywhere approaching 'breathy'. This indicates that something in the new body's physical reality is influencing Lanfear's tone. Most probably some form of mild respitory condition, or possibly a natural weakness in the vocal cords. In any case this condition would be apparent in the body's original owner, and Cabriana is specifically described as having a strident and powerful voice, even when she is being diffident.

 

Not when you don't have alot of choices when it comes to "suitable" bodies.  The very fact that it is difficult for the DO to find a "suitable" body makes sense to not waste Cabriana (a body with the channeling gene).  And Cyndane has not exactly been out in the world.  She has w/Moggy visited Graendal, attended a Forsaken social, fought at the Choedan Kal etc.  She's hardly walking the streets of Tar Valon or Salidar. 

 

Again though, whilst possible that is very far from being proven, and has some serious issues in conflict with what we have witnessed. As I said, i was never saying it was impossible, just unlikely and relying too heavily on unsupported assumptions.

 

And Cyndane has been more active in the world than we have seen, which we know for a fact. So no, she hasn't just been attending the Forsaken social, fighting at the cleansing and recruiting Graendal. Some even suggest that she is Sylvase, and there is a solid backing for that theory. But even lacking that, what we know of her actions seems incongruent with the Shadow putting about the story that she is dead.

 

Recall too that Aran'gar could have explained away Cabriana's absense much more easily, and the appearence of (Cyndane) Cabriana could have been massively influential on what Aran'gar was attempting to achieve in using the story of Cabriana's supposed discoveries about Elaida.

 

[Davian93]

I have being saying that A) it seems unlikely for strategic reasons, and B) You are stating a whole lot of possibilities as fact when you do not know them to be. The lack of an readily apparent alternative is not proof of a suggested possibility.

 

Luckers, I'm making an argument, of course I believe in what I'm saying.  Otherwise, I wouldn't be making the argument.

 

Furthermore, the state of the recycled Forsaken exactly match that of their originally ability, which shows that whatever influence the genetic state has on the development of the ability to channel in natural birth, something very different is at play with the Dark One's method of transmigration.

 

Not really.  It actually implies that overall strength in the Power is connected to the soul while the basic yes/no ability to channel is a genetic characteristic and that this gene is not specific to either sex which would easily explain Halima.

 

Now, an argument can be made that the genetic pre-disposition is required to allow the soul the ability to channel, yet given the exact similarities between the Forsaken's previous and current states of channeling it seems very unlikely that this is a contributory influence--especially since the feminine and masculine methods of accessing the Power as diametrically opposed.

 

Luckers, on one level, I agree with what you saying however I ask you to dig deeper on the subject. Allow that it does almost certainly require a genetic pre-disposition to be able to channel (I could reference the numerous cases of mother/daughter, sisters, etc that can channel but I wont since I know you are already aware of them not to mention RJ's statements on the matter).  Also we know that the soul plays apart in channeling in that if a soul is able to channel in one life if it is naturally reborn through the workings of wheel, the person will be able to channel again.  However, transmigration is definitely not a natural rebirth so those rules do not apply.  I propose that 2 things are necessary to channel:

 

1. Having the channeling gene (which is likely recessive)

2. Having a soul capable of channeling.

 

Furthermore I propose that the channeling gene is a simple yes/no you either have it or you dont gene that is no way related to sex/gender.

Also the soul controls both strength in channeling and gender in WoT. 

 

These are all assumptions however they are well supported from the books and various RJ interviews.

 

You see, it seems to may that that point is in my favour. Sex is not irrelevant since it proves that in terms of transmigration the natural interaction with the soul and its host body does not occur. Right there you have stated the obvious diversion between the effect the gentic state has on the soul in normal birth, and the complete lack of such in tranmigration

 

Sex is irrelevant though, since Halima is physically a female but her soul is masculine and "She" channels Saidin instead of Saidar.  This means that the soul controls which type of OP you can touch but the genetic evidence still implies rather strongly that the channeling gene be present.

 

As I said, your theory has merits, but it requires far too many assumptions to be suggested as fact, or even as likely--at least to my mind, and i do understand that obviously my position is not the be all and end all... im just saying. I personally cannot buy it.

 

I agree it is based on alot of assumptions but that is why it is a theory at this point.  There is nothing to outright deny it however and it has alot of circumstantial evidence supporting it.

 

You misread me. Cyndane's voice is obviously the words of Lanfear's soul, and just as obviously the different mindset would indeed result in a different manner of speech, and different toning. That being said, Lanfear was never anywhere approaching 'breathy'. This indicates that something in the new body's physical reality is influencing Lanfear's tone. Most probably some form of mild respitory condition, or possibly a natural weakness in the vocal cords. In any case this condition would be apparent in the body's original owner, and Cabriana is specifically described as having a strident and powerful voice, even when she is being diffident.

 

I apologize for misreading what you were saying.  However, to counter argue: peoples voices change when they age.  The only real descriptions we have of Cabriana speaking are over 20 years in the past.  Also, she may have damaged her vocal cords during her torture session with Semi.  So it doesn't blow it out of the park so to speak.

 

Furthermore, whilst clearly it isn't easy to find candidates for tranmigration that in no way is evidence that it is the ability to channel that makes it hard. Or that the genetics allow for cross-gender channeling.

 

Ah, but ask yourself, why else would it be difficult.  It is surely easy for Fades to capture pretty much anyone they want from the Borderlands.  They go on raids all the time so finding a healthy physical body would present no problem...even on short notice.  However finding a healthy physical body that possesses the channeling gene, now that would be difficult since it cuts out 99% of the population.  On the genetics thing, again I surmise that the gene is not gender specific and in fact the Soul controls gender in RJ's universe.

 

Some even suggest that she is Sylvase, and there is a solid backing for that theory. But even lacking that, what we know of her actions seems incongruent with the Shadow putting about the story that she is dead.

 

There is nothing to suggest that Sylvase is anything other than what she seems to be which is a young high seat of an Andoran house with a torture complex.  Even if she were, its irrevant since she would defintiely be using an inverted Mask of Mirrors to hide her appearance.  But likely, she is not.

 

[Luckers]

Luckers, I'm making an argument, of course I believe in what I'm saying.  Otherwise, I wouldn't be making the argument.

 

Ok, thats nice to know and all that... but im failing to see the relevance?

 

 

Not really.  It actually implies that overall strength in the Power is connected to the soul while the basic yes/no ability to channel is a genetic characteristic and that this gene is not specific to either sex which would easily explain Halima.

 

Ok. Why? You see, again, whilst there is nothing blocking your theory it is still just a theory because you have not supported it. Hence my opposition.

 

So, the onus here is obviously to go out and find specific evidence that overall strength is soul based and that some form of yes/no ability results from the soul.

 

Luckers, on one level, I agree with what you saying however I ask you to dig deeper on the subject. Allow that it does almost certainly require a genetic pre-disposition to be able to channel (I could reference the numerous cases of mother/daughter, sisters, etc that can channel but I wont since I know you are already aware of them not to mention RJ's statements on the matter).  Also we know that the soul plays apart in channeling in that if a soul is able to channel in one life if it is naturally reborn through the workings of wheel, the person will be able to channel again.  However, transmigration is definitely not a natural rebirth so those rules do not apply.  I propose that 2 things are necessary to channel:

 

1. Having the channeling gene (which is likely recessive)

2. Having a soul capable of channeling.

 

Furthermore I propose that the channeling gene is a simple yes/no you either have it or you dont gene that is no way related to sex/gender.

Also the soul controls both strength in channeling and gender in WoT. 

 

These are all assumptions however they are well supported from the books and various RJ interviews.

 

Unfortunately though they are no supported at all. RJ and the books have never made even the most remote comment based on the need for a body to have the channeling gene for transmigration of a channeling soul to occur. Indeed, its never even been remotely implied. Furthermore, the existence of the like of Aran'gar and the exact continuence of the state of channeling between bodies implies the exact opposite.

 

I get that you think your idea is right, and i get the logic behind the theory. But it is a logic that is based purely and totally on interpretation, and its not viable. Doesn't mean its incorrect.

 

Sex is irrelevant though, since Halima is physically a female but her soul is masculine and "She" channels Saidin instead of Saidar.  This means that the soul controls which type of OP you can touch but the genetic evidence still implies rather strongly that the channeling gene be present.

 

Or, umm... wait... sex is very relevant since it shows that the genetic state of the new body does not influence the initial gender state of a transmigrated soul.

 

I'm sorry Davian, you've landed on one single explanation and closed your mind to others. That's fine if you want to believe it. We won't stop you, but please don't expect your interpretation to be simply taken as fact.

 

I agree it is based on alot of assumptions but that is why it is a theory at this point.  There is nothing to outright deny it however and it has alot of circumstantial evidence supporting it.

 

And just as much circumstantial evidence denying it. But more significantly its purely illogical from the point of view of the shadow which is why i stand with the circumstantial evidence against it.

 

I apologize for misreading what you were saying.  However, to counter argue: peoples voices change when they age.  The only real descriptions we have of Cabriana speaking are over 20 years in the past.  Also, she may have damaged her vocal cords during her torture session with Semi.  So it doesn't blow it out of the park so to speak.

 

As I said, your suggestion is possible. Unlikely, to my mind, but possible.

 

Ah, but ask yourself, why else would it be difficult.

 

Did it not occur to you that it requires a similar degree of worship as is required for creating the souless... makes sense with the whole removing of souls thing. supported by the fact that the Dark One doesn't just removes souls willy-nilly. As whole, seems much more likely.

 

That being said maybe it requires something we've never heard of... certainly implies by RJ's comments about not including information on the limitations of transmigration because he may want to include it. Or maybe it requires one of the other things we know of... a dreamwalkers soul, we know they appear randomly.

 

See why i have an issue with your statementts? I simply don't think you've thought them through.

 

Its a possibility, but hardly a certainty... and not even the most likely thing.

 

There is nothing to suggest that Sylvase is anything other than what she seems to be which is a young high seat of an Andoran house with a torture complex.  Even if she were, its irrevant since she would defintiely be using an inverted Mask of Mirrors to hide her appearance.  But likely, she is not.

 

Ok, fair enough. Of course you have some logic to back your dismissal? Why, precisely, do you discount the evidence suggesting that Sylvase is precisely other than what she seems to be?

 

I dont know if i hold to it myself, but even i wouldn't be as silly as to make such a statement, so i look forward to this.

 

Also... thats like the tenth time you've said irrevant. I assumed at first that you meant irrelavant but the continued use makes me look a fool, so im curious... what does that word mean?

[Davian93]

I'm sorry Davian, you've landed on one single explanation and closed your mind to others.

 

Funny, since you're doing exactly the same thing even if you don't admit it.  I've noticed so far that all of your opinions on WoT are set in stone yet you claim I am the one who is close minded.  All of your arguments have come down to "well I hadn't thought of that so it can't be true."

 

Also... thats like the tenth time you've said irrevant. I assumed at first that you meant irrelavant but the continued use makes me look a fool, so im curious... what does that word mean?

 

Only an A$$ corrects someone else's grammar and spelling with an incorrect spelling of their own.  You're right you do look like a fool.

 

ir·rel·e·vant      /ɪˈrɛləvənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[i-rel-uh-vuhnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–adjective 1. not relevant; not applicable or pertinent: His lectures often stray to interesting but irrelevant subjects. 

2. Law. (of evidence) having no probative value upon any issue in the case. 

 

 

[Luckers]

Funny, since you're doing exactly the same thing even if you don't admit it.  I've noticed so far that all of your opinions on WoT are set in stone yet you claim I am the one who is close minded.  All of your arguments have come down to "well I hadn't thought of that so it can't be true."

 

Oh indeed, most of my opinions are set in stone. For me. the difference is there, and maybe you'll realise it in time, and be better for it. In the short term if you wish to chastize me to alleviate your own embarressment, feel free to do so.

 

Quote

Also... thats like the tenth time you've said irrevant. I assumed at first that you meant irrelavant but the continued use makes me look a fool, so im curious... what does that word mean?

 

Only an A$$ corrects someone else's grammar and spelling with an incorrect spelling of their own.  You're right you do look like a fool.

 

Yeah, dyslexic, so not much with caring about stupid spelling mistakes. Thought you might though. Concidering it was for the (random guess) tenth time--myself, i appreciate stuff, for instance the correction of my ongoing 'Siuane' instead of Siuan.

 

But you know, same as above, if you feel the need to act out your embaressment, play with me since i can take it. Try it with others and we may have an issue.

[lou]

i consistantly misspell moridin as moridan, and i fail to use proper punctuation and capitals. i know this, but am obviously apathetic to it. i am sure it is a subconscious rebellion towards my catholic school upbringing, my lefthanded-ness which the nuns failed to beat out of me. but it makes it funny, of course. humor is the key to a happier life.

 

on opinion and theory, i think it is a good thing to think, formulate opinions, but it is also of value to repect the opinions of others without petty namecalling and constant rudeness.

luckers spends a great deal of thought on his interpretations of the text and, while i dont always agree, i ask questions to gain clarity rather than to just try to beat his opinion down. it is not neccessary, and if you just ask why, you might get a clearer picture of how he came to that conclusion.

 

[Davian93]

So Luckers...same as with Ares, I offer a truce...

 

~extends hand~

[Luckers]

You uphold the code of conduct and be nice to your fellow members, and we have no contention.

[Davian93]

You uphold the code of conduct and be nice to your fellow members, and we have no contention.

 

Fair enough...as long as the rules apply to everyone.  I'll be polite and not mention any names from the "logain-savior" thread, but I don't appreciate death threats very much...even if they are weak attempts at being funny.