How did Lews Therin...

[dyring]

All the male Aes Sedai went insane on the instant.

I don't think so.

It took time for them to grow mad. Remember the part with the steddings? The Ogier granted the mal Aes Sedai "asylum" to their steddings where they would be safe. But the men could not live without feeling the Source and thus they left one by one. I think Moraine said this while stating that she is from the blue Ajah which thought that the Ogier's offer helped to minimize damages while the red ajah believed that it made things worse.

 

Its stated that all LTT and the hundred companions(who where a few more then 100) went mad instantly. The rest took theyr time. So your both right in a way ;)

 

//dyring

 

 

[Luckers]

So, basically, what this boils down to is that its possible they knew, and its possible they didn't.  I think one is more likely, and you think the other is.

 

-shrug- OK.

 

Lol. Pretty much. Although my initial comment was addressed to the idea that the Amyrlin had them in her possession.

 

And dyring is correct. Whilst the hundred companions went instantly insane, the rest of the male channelers took their time.

[Child of Lir]

Turak brought his Cuendillar collection from Seanchan. It's never stated that his sea came from their specifically, et it seems pretty much certain barring the slim possibility that he aquired it in his few weeks on Tomon Head.

 

Yes, with no evidence either way, then either is possible. But it's irrelevant where he got it. The point is, in the Breaking the seals were scattered and no-one could guarantee any more where they were, or really have any way of knowing that they were secure at all. It smells like a big Aes Sedai cover up to me: "Where the hell are the things now? I know, let's invent a title that tells the world we know and maybe we'll find them again in the meantime". A typical Aes Sedai twisting of the truth perhaps? ;)

[Davian93]

Question I have:  Why would the Empress, may she live forever, allow Turak to possess one of the Seals?  The answer is that she wouldn't.  That leaves us with a couple of possibilities.  One, she didn't know he had one though she surely would recognize it as Turak did. Or Two, he acquired in the 6 months he was on Toman Head.  Two is more likely.  The Pattern wanted 2 seals to be there and it always gets what it wants.  It is very possible he found it in that time.

[Luckers]

Firstly, Turak did not recognize the seal as a seal of the dark ones prison. He took it because it was cuendillar and he was a collector of cuendillar.

 

Secondly, im not sure i agree with your second point either. The likelyhood of a man (who happened to have a large pre-existing cuendillar collection) coming into the possesion of two of the seals in the cours of six months of being on this side of the ocean, whilst inhabiting and traveling in only a tiny area of the continent just seems to great to me.

 

 

[cloglord]

Secondly, im not sure i agree with your second point either. The likelyhood of a man (who happened to have a large pre-existing cuendillar collection) coming into the possesion of two of the seals in the cours of six months of being on this side of the ocean, whilst inhabiting and traveling in only a tiny area of the continent just seems to great to me.

 

I think that it is exactly the point that Davian was trying to make, that it does not matter how likely something is, if the possibility of such a thing exists, and the pattern wills it, then it becomes not only likely, but certain.  How likely is it that Turak would have two of the seals, and come into the possession of a box that had been the home of yet another seal for 3,000 years?  Not likely, but it happened.  How likely is it that the daughter-heir of Andor would run away from her husband and newborn son to become a maiden of the spear, just in time to get knocked up and go fight in a war that only happened because someone cut down a tree that had been an appreciation gift for an act of kindness performed millenia in the past?  Not-likely, but it happened.  In fairness to the idea that the seals were supposed to end up on Toman head, we should remember that the fate of all three Taveren was tied to that location.  After all, how likely is it that all seven seals would be lost for the past 2,000 years, and still end up in the hands of the soul that had created them, all within a matter of months?

[Davian93]

Firstly, Turak did not recognize the seal as a seal of the dark ones prison. He took it because it was cuendillar and he was a collector of cuendillar

 

Oops. You're right of course.  Chalk that one up to me having been at work for over 12 hours at this point and being fairly tired.

 

As for my other point...yeah what cloglord said.

[Luckers]

Yes, and more specifically they all happened fluidly with the roll and reaction to other events. My point is that the likelyhood of everything happen at once the moment Turak lands, leading him to the possession of two seals is not the most likely circumstance, as Davian states. I think it far more likely that a man who spends his life collecting cuendillar might have a seal in his collection than randomly coming to possess two over the course of a few months.

 

I stated originally that it was not impossible, merely that i think it more likely that Turak brought it from Seanchan.

[cloglord]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I'm not sure that I agree.  If you look at it one way, Turak found a seal in a narrowly defined geographical area during a limited span of time, but if you look at it another way, Turak brought an ancient artifact that has been lost to Randland for at least 1,000 years, back across the Aryth ocean just in time for Rand to find it.  In either case it it seems fortuitous, and since fortune is dictated by the wheel, either coincidence turns into a contrivance of the pattern, both are remote possibilities, and I don't know that it is important to distinquish between them.

 

It is fairly obvious that the arrival of Turak's seal is important at this stage of the story, and is likely willed by the pattern, if you look at the ripple effect that comes from it.  Turak shows up in Falme with a seal, Doman shows up with a seal, Turak forces Doman to stay because of Doman's seal, Doman promises to help the wondergirls because of his confinment to Falme, His failed promise leads him to help the wondergirls in Tanchio, His help leads him to meet Egeanin and gives them the male adam, the surrender of the male adam makes Egeanin one of the blood, Egeanin's status as one of the blood allows Mat to make plans to rescue the 3 aes sedai, Mat's plans end up forcing him to kidnap Tuon, Mat's kidnapping of Tuon leads to his marriage and his title of Prince of the Ravens.  Is there any quarantee that Turak would have been interested in Bayle Domon if he hadn't possesed a matching piece to his own collection?  Would all of these things have happened if Turak hadn't had a seal to match the one he got from Domon? 

 

Likelyhood is not the issue, the issue is whether or not the pattern willed Turak's possesion of 2 seals, and I think that it is pretty clear that it did.

[Child of Lir]

I agree. The Pattern demands that the seals be found before Tarmon Gai'don and they were. As I said earlier, all the rest is irrelevant. They've been found now and that's all that matters. Now, where did I leave that hammer...?

[cloglord]

I stumbled across something fortuitous last night, and I though it might help clear things up a bit.

 

TDR Ch 56 People of the Dragon

 

'During the Breaking of the Worldd they [the seals] were scattered and hidden for safety; since the Trolloc Wars they have been lost in truth.' She[Moraine] sniffed.  'I begin to sound like Verin

 

Which makes me wonder if Verin made a habit of lecturing about the seals, and if so, maybe she's not off to get the horn, but maybe she's off to gather the remaining seals.....hmmm speculicious.

[lou]

and yet another door opens.....

[Luckers]

To be fair, i see your point Cloglord, i just feel that given the way RJ built up Turak as specifically a longtime collector of Cuendillar, it seems more reasonable that he brought the seal with him rather than managing to find two in the course of the small period of time he spent on that tiny spit of land.

 

And Rand already possesses the last three seals, and has them secreted away. I admit, Verin may not know that, but it strikes me as unlikely that she seeks the seals. And I think Moiraine was speaking of the way Verin's tends to lecture whenever anyone asks even a harmless idle question. As Verin herself says, she and Moiraine differ on the dispensation of information. Verin thinks people should be informed whilst Moiraine holds her knowledge close to the chest.