Lanfear's comment while fighting Alivia...

[balefireruinssteaks]

I've been pondering over something Cyndane said while Rand was busy with the Choedan Kal.

 

(If this topic has been discussed already, forgive me)

 

When Cyndane was making her way through the forest, she ran into Alivia.  When Alivia started throwing the Power at her, Cyndane made the comment that she "suffered her second shock...this woman was stronger than she was before she was held by the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn.  It was impossible, no woman COULD be."

 

Did Lanfear simply have a huge ego about her own strength, or was there some type of pact she had that enabled her to be the strongest woman EVER?  Why was she confident that there would simply be no one stronger than her without the aid of angreal or sa'angreal?

[The Dragon Reborn]

It's mostly ego, though she was the most powerful of the female Forsaken, and second only the Ishy. Though there certainly was no 'pact'. leastways none I've ever heard of.

 

It is possible that she was one of the most of her time in the AoL. So, I suppose if that was true you can imagine her surprise when she comes across someone who is stronger than she ever was in this age of 'half trained idiot weaklings' (paraphrasing).

[Luckers]

You see, I don't think it was ego, though the Dragon Reborn is quite correct about there never having been a pact.

 

Firstly why would Cyndane phrase it in that manner to herself--yes, we know that the Forsaken lie to themselves about their strengths all the time, but that comment wasn't egotistical in nature. She first of all directly refers to her new weaker state, THEN goes on with a degree of incredulity. She isn't talking herself up, she was genuinely shocked by Alivia's strength.

 

Secondly, we know that there is an upper limit--RJ specifically stated that the male range of strengths exceeded the female by one or two levels, and that establishes a top strength. A blury one, certainly, but its there.

 

Thirdly, Mierin was a researcher in the one power, and later a leader in the Shadow. If in the course of her hundreds of years of life, and encounters with (up to) tens of thousands of channelers, she had not encountered a woman stronger (much less in the course of her career, heard of one) then yes, she has a very good basis for her comments.

 

So, an upper strength exists, and Lanfear more than probably WAS on it. Perhaps in the course of history there may have been a woman or two who was the barest of a degree stronger, but she simply would not have been divisible from Lanfear (given the nature of strength in women).

 

[The Dragon Reborn]

Well, I would have thought that RJ's comments about limits was based on known limits and through averages. What I mean is: On average, men have more brute strength, but women get stuff like being able to link without men etc. I reckon that those limits are based on what was known at the time as the upper limit in strength.

I'd still say that to some extent Cyndane's reaction to her was somewhat egotistical. She is used to literally being one of the strongest (if not strongest) female channeler around, it has to be shocking to encounter the most powerful female channeler she has ever seen. Though it's just as possible that her work and research with the power gives her some reason to believe that she is at the limit of what women can handle.

 

Firstly why would Cyndane phrase it in that manner to herself

Luckers is right this can mean what you said but could as easily reflect her ego...depending what you read into it.

 

Out of curiosity, is it possible if the pattern fiddled with the rules regarding channeler's strength, as it was necessary for some reason or another....just a crazy idea I just had.  :-\

[Luckers]

Well, I would have thought that RJ's comments about limits was based on known limits and through averages. What I mean is: On average, men have more brute strength, but women get stuff like being able to link without men etc. I reckon that those limits are based on what was known at the time as the upper limit in strength.

 

The comment i refer to comes specifically from RJ's establishment of specific strength. He was discussing his twenty-one level rank system of female channelers, and he ended it by saying that if there were a male rank level system that it would extend beyond the top of the female level by 'one or two levels'. He THEN went on to caution people to remember all those things you listed as contributory in comparing channelers, but nevertheless we know that there is an upper limit in terms of pure strength.

 

Beyond that though, we have other references to the upper limit. Rand, Ishamael and LTT have been referred to sitting on it. Aes Sedai remember it, they suggest that Sharina might sit on it one day--and no, its not a function of Aes Sedai wannabe-omniscience. For starters they weren't pretending to know something, they were suggesting it amongst themselves as a possibile theory.

 

The significance in it is that they had some reason to suggest that Sharina might be the strongest a woman can be--in the past two years increasingly stronger women have been coming in for training--a steady flood that began with the Wonder girls. Without a significant period of time following Sharina's arrival, they had no reason to suggest that--unless the knowledge remains from the days when the Tower was more populous--not just of the limit, but where that stands comparative to women of modern times. Since we know Aes Sedai DO keep track of such things....

 

I'd still say that to some extent Cyndane's reaction to her was somewhat egotistical. She is used to literally being one of the strongest (if not strongest) female channeler around, it has to be shocking to encounter the most powerful female channeler she has ever seen. Though it's just as possible that her work and research with the power gives her some reason to believe that she is at the limit of what women can handle

 

Yet she wasn't trying to talk herself up. She was simply and genuinely shocked to encounter a woman stronger than she--and that in itself is what speaks to the honesty of her assessment. You say she is used to being the strongest female channeler around--and she is, with good reason. She WAS always the strongest female channeler around, and she comes from an age when three percent of the population could (and were trained) in the ability to channel. An age were communication and travel were easy and simple.

 

Now even assuming that the Age of Legends was far less populated than our time (which is a hard assessment--yes their natural resources don't seem to have been as much under assault as ours, but their average lifespan was twice ours, and there doesn't seem to have been any form of birth control system in place) but even if there was only a population of one billion, thats still three million channelers. Even assuming a vast majority of them are no stronger than Morgase, the numbers of channelers in the age of Legends are so significant that the mere fact that Lanfear had never ecountered a woman stronger than herself in her life (of hundreds of years, in a world of easy communication and travel, not to mention collaboration between all channelers) is in itself massively significant.

 

Add to that that whilst the Age of Legenders did not pay homage to strength, they did study the power, and traits of strength in the populace would be an obvious topic. Lanfear as a researcher would, and must have come accross that in the course of her education--especially for the vain woman that she is.

 

What we have here is an assertion made out of surprise by a woman who has expertise in the area of that assertion.

 

I'm not saying that the upper limit is an exact number, and certainly there might have been women who were very slightly stronger than Mierin in the course of history. But in terms of Cyndanes comment... yes, her strength when she was Lanfear was right at the point of the strongest a woman can be.

 

Out of curiosity, is it possible if the pattern fiddled with the rules regarding channeler's strength, as it was necessary for some reason or another....just a crazy idea I just had.

 

I doubt it... but what made you think of this? My belief is that lax Aes Sedai recruitment combined with the arrogant dismissal of wilders has distorted the beliefs about declining strength in women.

[The Dragon Reborn]

Out of curiosity, is it possible if the pattern fiddled with the rules regarding channeler's strength, as it was necessary for some reason or another....just a crazy idea I just had.

 

I doubt it... but what made you think of this? My belief is that lax Aes Sedai recruitment combined with the arrogant dismissal of wilders has distorted the beliefs about declining strength in women.

 

You've me taken up wrong here, I think. I actually am of the same opinion as you, the lack of strong channelers is the direct fault of Aes Sedai laziness in seeking them out.

 

I was really just thinking out load that, if you're idea about an upper limit is true, and is some sort of 'universal law' that maybe the pattern fiddled with these upper limits to allow a few 'super strong' channelers as they are necessary for some unseen reason. This is by no means a theory, simply a hypothetical pondering. It would explain how Cyndane was genuinely surprised by a channeler that was significantly stronger than she used to be however... 

 

I figure you must be right, I never read that specific quote from RJ. Something in one of the books touched on the issue and that was the (false) impression I came away with. I've only read through the series once and am on a 1st re-read, currently on PoD. Only by re-reading and these forums do I really realize how much I missed on the 1st read. :-[

[balefireruinssteaks]

I agree that it's mainly Aes Sedai arrogance (the idea that only women trained in the Tower count, for example) spawned the idea that women with great strength were dwindling away.

 

Wise Ones among the Aiel are strong, and we see that Somyren(sp?)is counted as strongest among the Aiel...and Egwene assesses that there are quite a few Aiel channelers who are stronger than current sisters.

 

Elayne also finds a trove of strength when she encounters the Windfinders, and also a fair amount of strength in the Kin.

 

Not to mention the arrival of quite a few women who have great strength in and of themselves but were passed up because they were too old to be a novice or whatever; Sharina for example.

 

I think it's kind of like the idea that there are great musicians out there, but because they lack the funds or the venues to train their skills they remain nameless and faceless, despite the fact that they have the potential for great talent.

 

[oosquaiaddict]

Had a discussion about how the male and female parts of the power work on a diff board and I came up with a truly insane theory. The first post was someone asking about Siuan/Leane not being healed to full stregnth vs. Logain and Sashalle being healed bac to full stregnth. Here was my reply:

 

==================================

 

Your right...theres definitely something about the genders here.

 

This might be a slightly wacky idea, but I think Siuan or Leane or maybe both one of them, are going to regain not just all their power, but will be a lot more powerful than they previously were.

 

I base this theory on four ideas

 

1. Who heals who and their new strength in the Power

The Aes Sedai(Sashlee or something like that) who was stilled by Rand and healed by Damer Flinn, has regained all her power. Logain was healed by Nynaeve, and has regained all his power. Its Siuan and Leane who were also healed by Nynaeve and haven't recovered all their power. So those who were stilled and healed both by the opposite gender have regained their full power. Those who were stilled and healed by the same gender haven't regained full strength.

 

2. Lanfears thoughts at the Cleansing

During the cleansing of the source when Lanfear comes across Alivia, she thinks something about how Alivia is stronger than she was(because of an angreal) and she was as strong in the power as it was possible for a female channeler to be. How does she know that she hit the limit? Shes speaking to herself, so theres no reason for deception, and it seems like a very strangely specific word choice. Wouldn't she be more likely to think how she'd never met anyone as strong or stronger than she, or something like that.

 

I think the reason she thinks this, is during her time as a researcher in the Age of Legends she spent her time studying the power, specifically finding a source that could be used by men and women both. I dot think its a stretch to say that in order to this she had to study both male and female halves of the power extensively. Is it not possible that during this study she realized something about how the male and female parts of the power work, a way to use the male half of the power on herself to increase her ability, maybe max it out?

 

3. The maximum utilization of the power comes with both men and women work together

Over and over and over again we have been told how the most impressive of Aes Sedai works were done using both sides of the power. The two truly momentous uses of the power we have seen is (1) Using the Bowl of Winds and (2) the cleansing of Saidin. In both of these cases both sides of the power were used.

 

4. What happens during stilling to Men and Women is fundamentally the same

Nynaeve was able to heal Siuan and Leane, using what she learnt form healing Logain. If different things happened i.e. the injury was different, I dont think that would be the case.

 

Ok so heres my grand theory to wrap it all together, and pardon me from talking out of my shadar hole if thats what it sounds like.

 

I believe Lanfear found a way to make herself more powerful. She did this by having a man use saidin on herself to magnify the amount of power she can hold. Its just question of finding the spot that Nynaeve and probably Flinn picked out to Heal and reinforcing that with the missing links. I dont think that someone who hasnt been stilled could have this done to them though, I think it could only happen if those missing links get exposed, which would happen during the stilling/gentling.

 

I do know that this is seriously out there...

==========================================

[balefireruinssteaks]

interesting theory but I don't think it works.

 

When Nynaeve Heals Siuane and Leane, they come to her again to see if she can bring them to a higher strength, but it says "it didn't work...you can't Heal something that's already been Healed." (paraphrase)

 

I think Siuane and Leane have hit their limit, unless they get stilled again and then maybe they'll be able to regain their former strength.  I don't think you can add power to yourself either just from having someone channel saidin at you.

[lou]

stilling requires cross gender healing. nynaeve can heal logain all the way to full strngth, and flinn healed the severed AS to full strength. nynaeve could not heal suiane and leane simply because it required a man's touch. i think they can still be healed to full power, they just need one of the men to do it, i dont think it will require another severing.