twice dawns the day

[pocketsemptee]

hi i just joined and thought i'd throw this post out there because it's been irking at me for a bit

 

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

 

we all know rand has to die at the last battle at shayol ghul. I'm thinking that the twice dawning day means that after he dies and the prophecy is fulfilled and the darkone is reimprisoned that the day will start over and he will be "born again" and return to life and happily ever after and such.

 

plus that theory also follows the theory that this book slightly follows a stigmatic view of rand. unhealing wound in his side. wounds on his hands. the crown of swords(thorns) jesus died and was resurrected. just my 2 coppers

[crash]

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragons blood stains the rocks of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow

[Kadere]

but wasn't the first day his blood was shed in The Great Hunt?

 

I agree he'll be resurrected, he has to be to fight the Dark One in the next age.

[Guest Majsju]

 

That's reborn. Resurrected means brought back from the dead.

 

I'm still convinced twice dawns the day refers to the eruption of Dragonmount, which is a volcano, and have lately started to spread winds with a sulphur smell.

[Fryn]

Not likely to happen, but it could be the world is reborn kind of like another breaking, and the new world will be influenced based on Rand's Emotional state. A new landscape would see a new dawn since it would be the first dawn for that landscape. The only things that even say this is possible in the least is the fact that teh world has to go back to its original form so that it can be rebroken by LTT.

 

As for Rand's emotional state that's due to a couple of the prophecies and comments by people in the books (at the very least Rand's emotional state will determine if the last battle is won or lost imo). First is Cadsuame trying to teach Rand manors, and knowing from Min's visions that she has to teach Rand something that he won't like.

 

The second is from Nicola's first foretelling, "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance out the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade." This foretelling appears to be after Rand dies but before he is reborn, and the last line imo is refering to every portion of the foretelling not just the 3rd line. So it might be a reference to the future depending on the love between rand and elayne/avi/min, since that is the only portion of Rand that isn't honed like a stone.

 

 

More likely Rand might be reborn in Mordin's body but if thats the case I'm not sure where the second dawn would come from.

[Luckers]

Fryn have you read the books of Ephemera? That sounds very like to what occurs in those books.

 

The obvious ones for this are eclipse of some form, the erruption of dragonmount or some sort of effect created by the dark one... remember that shayol ghoul is always banked in cloud. there are some other options...

 

Has it occured to anyone that it may simply mean that there will be two different days at dawn when rand gets cut up. Yes, the use of the singular 'day' indicated the two dawns may happen on the same day, but at the same time the phonetics of the sentence throw the focus on the blood, and state of time (that its dawn) The twice to my mind can be linked in the progression to the blood, while the dawn is linked to the day. The fact that its poetry of a form allows for that sort of manipulation.

 

I suppose it may have something to do with Rands blindness--though the evidence suggests that the blindness won't be complete.

 

The "see the dawn, travel away, and see the dawn again." I don't like this one, its too blunt for prophecy.

 

As for the rest of the prophecy, the his blood on the rocks of shayol ghoul part, my guess is its symbolic. Rand will change bodies with moridin, and alivia will kill moridin in rands body splattering the rocks of shayol ghoul with blood, and that this will occur near the end of the battle, either after the dark one has been locked away, or just before, symbolising the lights final victory over the shadow.

[crash]

One of Min's viewing

 

-(About Cadsuane, to Rand.) "It's Cadsuane. She is going to teach you something, you and the Asha'man. All the Asha'man, I mean. It's something you have to learn, but I don't know what it is, except that none of you will like learning it from her. You aren't going to like it at all." (A Crown of Swords, Chapter 41.)

 

I think that Cadsuane will break the bonds that the Asha'man have on the women and break Rand's bond to his women. Cause the bond is like a Warder bond making the person who lives want to revenge the other person's death, but also it makes them cry cause it is like losing something.

[pocketsemptee]

Not likely to happen' date=' but it could be the world is reborn kind of like another breaking, and the new world will be influenced based on Rand's Emotional state. A new landscape would see a new dawn since it would be the first dawn for that landscape. The only things that even say this is possible in the least is the fact that teh world has to go back to its original form so that it can be rebroken by LTT.

 

As for Rand's emotional state that's due to a couple of the prophecies and comments by people in the books (at the very least Rand's emotional state will determine if the last battle is won or lost imo). First is Cadsuame trying to teach Rand manors, and knowing from Min's visions that she has to teach Rand something that he won't like.

 

The second is from Nicola's first foretelling, "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance out the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade." This foretelling appears to be after Rand dies but before he is reborn, and the last line imo is refering to every portion of the foretelling not just the 3rd line. So it might be a reference to the future depending on the love between rand and elayne/avi/min, since that is the only portion of Rand that isn't honed like a stone.

 

 

More likely Rand might be reborn in Mordin's body but if thats the case I'm not sure where the second dawn would come from.[/quote']

 

i always thought that line "The land divided by the return" meant the seanchan but if it really is in the same line as "and the guardians balance out the servants" I think it refers to the return of male channelers. because asha'man means guardian and Aes Sedai means servant of all...

[Luckers]

It could go that way, but it has to me a listing sound... like events are being laid down, but are indeed different events. Especially when put together with the dream Amys and the others have about Rand cutting the westlands in two and the prophecy about binding north to east and south to west, and that the two must then be made one. All of it sounds to me to be about the Return, which is the specific name of the Seanchan invasion.

 

As to the rest of Nicola's foretelling... keep in mind when it came. It was in Lord of Chaos before the battle of Dumai's wells, and following just after a statement about Asha'men and Aes Sedai eqaulling each other... it may mean that. Though i personally agree that its more likely refering to the last battle.

[Luckers]

Here's something i only just noticed... refer, first to my suggestion that maybe its two incidents of bleeding on two seperate days at dawn that the prophecy refers to, then look at it again.

 

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.

 

Two incidents. One on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, one in the pit of doom. It is close, and could again be the same thing, though to me the pit of doom has always been slightly different to shayol ghul... almost like its in another reality, which it sort of is. I'm starting to like this idea.

[Angel of Death]

I liked the idea another came up with about it being an eclipse - sets the date of TG in stone. Also the volcano erupting is a bit far for me, but it could hurl ash into the air covering the sun.

[Kadere]

One of Min's viewing

 

-(About Cadsuane' date=' to Rand.) "It's Cadsuane. She is going to teach you something, you and the Asha'man. All the Asha'man, I mean. It's something you have to learn, but I don't know what it is, except that none of you will like learning it from her. You aren't going to like it at all." (A Crown of Swords, Chapter 41.)

 

I think that Cadsuane will break the bonds that the Asha'man have on the women and break Rand's bond to his women. Cause the bond is like a Warder bond making the person who lives want to revenge the other person's death, but also it makes them cry cause it is like losing something.[/quote']

 

The way things are going I don't think you're correct. ACoS's epigraph talks about the fact that Rand no longer feels love, and because of this he cannot be an effective leader. The fact that Rand, and the other Ashamen, have distanced themselves from their loved ones means they are virtually ineffective at saving mankind, simply because they don't care. Rand loves Min, Avi, and Elayne, yet is willing to push them away so that he doesn't have to deal with the fact that he will lose them. Cadusane says in WH something about how she must get Rand to mourn and feel again because if he doesn't he will be incapable of making the final sacrafice. Rand's not going to like learning this. The Ashamen are going to HATE it, but if they are going to win they must learn to feel again.

[Red States Rule!]

It's possible it's the reverse, but with a bad ending, for all of you who "seek to understand the other side":

 

"free men from the shadow"

 

this is point of view. Say Rand goes over to the Shadow. It therefore isn't the shadow, then, is it... for him to free men from?

[Luckers]

I don't quite understand... if rand went over to the shadow, it would be the shadow. Rand doesn't define the light or the shadow.

[Fryn]

I thought Cadsuane said something closer to the lines that she must teach Rand to feel again or even winning the last battle would be bad for everyone that survives (Can't find the line now though, and can't remember if it was when she was thinking to herself, talking to the wise ones, or talking to one of the Aes Sedai that are following her).

 

I doubt Cadsuane will break the bonds between the Asha'man and teh Aes Sedai. She mentioned something about turnabout being fair plan but how the timing was bad. Personally I don't think it matters anyway, since even when the Aes Sedai are the ones that do the bonding the men seem to have a much different relationship than normal warders. From everything I have read it sounds like more of an even bond than before. For more reasons behind this look at teh section where one of the most controlling Aes Sedai with her warders asks Cadsuane if she should give the pin back to him since it means so much to him.

 

Lurkers: Nope I haven't read that series. Sadly the time I have to read is limited; so unless its LoTR, Harry Potter, WoT series, or a Star Wars book I probably haven't read it (Aside from random books, I try to limit the number of series I read that aren't finished when I start. Though I tend to read reread a series after I start it once :p). The idea is also sort of similar to the end of the Eva anime series and the PS2 game Shin Megami, and probably a lot of other places. I might of gotten it from there, but is more an out of the box theory.

[Luckers]

Cads said that some would say the aes sedai being bonded was fair turn around, but that she'd never been a fan of fair play. Still, i don't see her taking the effort to break the bonds--she may not like it, but she also doesn't seem to really care.

 

And yes, her actions with Rand and Logain, and the conversations with Sorilea and Verin (with her POV showing it wasn't a lie, or aversion, with sorilea at least) show that she intends to teach rand to cry and laugh again, or else she fears that his victory would be as bad as his defeat.