Who will be the boss?

[GrandpaG]

The Aes Sedai are presently under the jurisdiction of the Hall and the Amyrlin Seat, yet they go their own way and do their own thing them minute they are out of shouting range.  They will do the same when they join the New Kin.

 

 

edit:  They'll do so for an extra 300 - 400 years.

[Guest cwestervelt]

They would be so used the the Oaths, they would not have problems acting as if they were still bound.

 

suiane and leane had no trouble shrugging off the three oaths at first opportunity. they had logain setting up a story about the reds, blatently false.....

 

Which makes you wonder what Suian is going to do as she is dead set on retaking the Oaths at the first opportunity.

[drovja]

We've all seen that the Three Oaths don't hold quite as tightly as they might appear to. Such as the Oath against lying, that held very few AS back when they wanted to be insincere.

[GrandpaG]

But, then again, one of my favorite serious posters on DM has posted that the time is near when no one will be able to channel so that will take care of that.  Too bad, though.  Might have been fun to watch the White Tower trying to manipulate the world and control the New Kin, too. ;D

[RobertAlexWillis]

LOL ... "near" is a relative term, Gramps.  You should still get several hundred years of channeling bru-ha-ha.

[Luckers]

Myself, i believe that the theory of the soon to be disapearence of the ability to channel is unlikely. Between the reapearence of male channelers, and the seemingly easy manner in which they are sliding into the position of prespective mates for Aes Sedai then i think the ability to channel will linger for some time. Recall that there is at least four ages between now and when there has to be no knowledge of the ability, including a possible 'reset' of the state of events.

 

Beyond that though... i just dont like the idea. :)

[ApostleofJordan]

They would be so used the the Oaths, they would not have problems acting as if they were still bound.

 

suiane and leane had no trouble shrugging off the three oaths at first opportunity. they had logain setting up a story about the reds, blatently false.....

 

But they did so out of extenuating circumstances. Look at Elayne and Egwene, they try to live life as if they had already taken the oaths, and they do a pretty good job.

[ApostleofJordan]

We've all seen that the Three Oaths don't hold quite as tightly as they might appear to. Such as the Oath against lying, that held very few AS back when they wanted to be insincere.

 

As to this, I don't mean that they would stop being incencere, I'm just saying that they would still act as if bound by the oaths.

The Aes Sedai are presently under the jurisdiction of the Hall and the Amyrlin Seat, yet they go their own way and do their own thing them minute they are out of shouting range.  They will do the same when they join the New Kin.

 

You are right, the hall and Amyrlin don't have complete control over all the Aes Sedai. But that doesn't mean that they still don't have alot of control. And also, the Kin seemed to be alot stricter then the Aes Sedai. They have the whole farm thing, where they go for penance. Also, can you really imagine many Aes Sedai standing up to people like Alise? Only the few Aes Sedai like Cadsuane could do that.

[GrandpaG]

The Kin have been hiding for a long time.  They no longer have to.  I think you'll see them "growing some back bone". ;)

[Darth_Andrea]

The tower has been far to long trying to control things. With cause of corse working to fight the shadow. Once TG is over however that mission will for the most part fall away. What then is the purpose of the White Tower? Perhaps they could become like the Jedi acting as 3rd party negoatiors and between nations. They can also start working on relearning everything that was lost and trying to rebuild the world to what it once was.

 

 

Darth_Andrea

[GrandpaG]

Maybe the Seanchan will gain control of randland after TG.  Then there won't be any Wise Ones or Kin or Windfinders...just damane. ;D

[lou]

They would be so used the the Oaths, they would not have problems acting as if they were still bound.

 

suiane and leane had no trouble shrugging off the three oaths at first opportunity. they had logain setting up a story about the reds, blatently false.....

 

But they did so out of extenuating circumstances. Look at Elayne and Egwene, they try to live life as if they had already taken the oaths, and they do a pretty good job.

 

they did so out of vengeance and manipulation.

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

As it is, no one trusts Aes Sedai, so how are they going to feel about the Kin, which would just be Aes Sedai without any oaths. How is the average person supposed to know the difference between Aes Sedai and Kin members? As for retired Aes Sedai in the Kin still acting as though they were bound to the oaths, the fact is that they would not be. They could be used as weapons. They could attack people...no more rules. Even if they don't, nobody could ever be sure anymore. The whole thing would be a complete mess.

 

Uh-oh. Just thought of something. Imagine Seanchan making damane out of ex-Aes Sedai Kin members. Hundreds of years worth of Aes Sedai training being used for fighting.  :o

[Seriodor]

100's of years of Aes'Sedai training wouldnt be worth as much as training a regular Damane for 100's of years. They're not meant to know that many damaging spells, while damane are taught nothin but offensive skills from the point of capture.

[Luckers]

As it is, no one trusts Aes Sedai, so how are they going to feel about the Kin, which would just be Aes Sedai without any oaths. How is the average person supposed to know the difference between Aes Sedai and Kin members? As for retired Aes Sedai in the Kin still acting as though they were bound to the oaths, the fact is that they would not be. They could be used as weapons. They could attack people...no more rules. Even if they don't, nobody could ever be sure anymore. The whole thing would be a complete mess.

 

Well, to be fair their freedom allows for them to more interact with people on their own level. The majority of the alienation people feel toward Aes Sedai stems from their own attempts to be feared and mysterious. The Kin on the other hand serve the people, like the Wise Ones or the Windfinders, and as such are respected for their position.

[Seriodor]

idk, they would have to work off 300 years of a heaaavvy superiority complex. i doubt they'd connect with anyone.

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

100's of years of Aes'Sedai training wouldnt be worth as much as training a regular Damane for 100's of years. They're not meant to know that many damaging spells, while damane are taught nothin but offensive skills from the point of capture.

 

Good point.

 

Well, to be fair their freedom allows for them to more interact with people on their own level. The majority of the alienation people feel toward Aes Sedai stems from their own attempts to be feared and mysterious. The Kin on the other hand serve the people, like the Wise Ones or the Windfinders, and as such are respected for their position.

 

I understand that, but when you're dealing with over a thousand very powerful women who can channel, you can't rely on the honor system to keep order. All it takes is for one rogue Kin member to lash out at someone with the One Power and BAM, panic! As for alienation towards Aes Sedai, I don't think that would lessen very much if they gave out muffins and chocolate to the townspeople every morning. Enough people are plain freaked out by anything to do with the One Power. People are only cool with Windfinders because they are never really around. Plus, when they are, most people are too scared to get in the way. As for the Wise Ones, I'm not sure if everybody knows that they can channel...even if people do know, the Wise Ones kind of lie low, and you can be sure retire Aes Sedai won't.

[ApostleofJordan]

Well, to be fair their freedom allows for them to more interact with people on their own level. The majority of the alienation people feel toward Aes Sedai stems from their own attempts to be feared and mysterious. The Kin on the other hand serve the people, like the Wise Ones or the Windfinders, and as such are respected for their position.

 

I understand that, but when you're dealing with over a thousand very powerful women who can channel, you can't rely on the honor system to keep order. All it takes is for one rogue Kin member to lash out at someone with the One Power and BAM, panic! As for alienation towards Aes Sedai, I don't think that would lessen very much if they gave out muffins and chocolate to the townspeople every morning. Enough people are plain freaked out by anything to do with the One Power. People are only cool with Windfinders because they are never really around. Plus, when they are, most people are too scared to get in the way. As for the Wise Ones, I'm not sure if everybody knows that they can channel...even if people do know, the Wise Ones kind of lie low, and you can be sure retire Aes Sedai won't.

 

Let's break this down:

The Three oaths were created so that people would not fear them, and could trust them (to some degree). People fear them because they wield the one power, and as some people think it was just plain ol' Aes Sedai who broke the world, they fear any use of the power, saidin or saidar, because they believe that it was the force that broke the world. The less ignorant would fear them because they are so much more powerful, and can wrap them up in a flow of air without a second thought (this was the reason for Oaths against using the power as a weapon and making weapons with the Power). So in short, they fear Aes Sedai because they fear the power. And it is my opinion that they fear the power because they are not exposed to it or its wielders. All the channelers in the world were secluded in the white tower, aloof and not really interacting with the common man (at least until recently). If people were exposed to the power and channelers, they would cease to fear it. My proof is the sea folk, the aiel, and the age of legends. The sea folk are not afraid of the power because they see it used quite often by windfinders, and the power is used to their aid. The same goes for the Aiel (although they didn't have to worry about wise ones attacking). Now look back at the AOL. There were no oaths back then, there were more Aes Sedai then ever (men included), and no one feared them! The one power was a convinience to them! Imagine it like electricity. We discover it, we use it, we are comfortable with it, and you don't have to be an electrician to understand the basics of it. Now imagine someone who knew about and could harness electricity 400 years ago (lets just say that's how far behind we fall when civilization colapses). They would be feared, hated, and likely killed. Or, to use a more modern analogy, say the power is NUCLEAR power. The first time people were exposed to it, we were afraid out of our minds! It destroyed a whole city with one blast! We don't know if it's going to be used against us or what. Eventually, we grow used to it and learn to harness it for our benifit. I imagine that kind of out come, supposing the AS come out of their shell. Which is exactly what would happen after TG. It will be a time of rebuilding and learning and what-not. And eventually, a return to the glory of the AOL, which is proven true by the idea of the wheel of time. There has to be a great civilization to fall when the 2nd age comes again.

[Seriodor]

Well, to be fair their freedom allows for them to more interact with people on their own level. The majority of the alienation people feel toward Aes Sedai stems from their own attempts to be feared and mysterious. The Kin on the other hand serve the people, like the Wise Ones or the Windfinders, and as such are respected for their position.

 

I understand that, but when you're dealing with over a thousand very powerful women who can channel, you can't rely on the honor system to keep order. All it takes is for one rogue Kin member to lash out at someone with the One Power and BAM, panic! As for alienation towards Aes Sedai, I don't think that would lessen very much if they gave out muffins and chocolate to the townspeople every morning. Enough people are plain freaked out by anything to do with the One Power. People are only cool with Windfinders because they are never really around. Plus, when they are, most people are too scared to get in the way. As for the Wise Ones, I'm not sure if everybody knows that they can channel...even if people do know, the Wise Ones kind of lie low, and you can be sure retire Aes Sedai won't.

 

Let's break this down:

The Three oaths were created so that people would not fear them, and could trust them (to some degree). People fear them because they wield the one power, and as some people think it was just plain ol' Aes Sedai who broke the world, they fear any use of the power, saidin or saidar, because they believe that it was the force that broke the world. The less ignorant would fear them because they are so much more powerful, and can wrap them up in a flow of air without a second thought (this was the reason for Oaths against using the power as a weapon and making weapons with the Power). So in short, they fear Aes Sedai because they fear the power. And it is my opinion that they fear the power because they are not exposed to it or its wielders. All the channelers in the world were secluded in the white tower, aloof and not really interacting with the common man (at least until recently). If people were exposed to the power and channelers, they would cease to fear it. My proof is the sea folk, the aiel, and the age of legends. The sea folk are not afraid of the power because they see it used quite often by windfinders, and the power is used to their aid. The same goes for the Aiel (although they didn't have to worry about wise ones attacking). Now look back at the AOL. There were no oaths back then, there were more Aes Sedai then ever (men included), and no one feared them! The one power was a convinience to them! Imagine it like electricity. We discover it, we use it, we are comfortable with it, and you don't have to be an electrician to understand the basics of it. Now imagine someone who knew about and could harness electricity 400 years ago (lets just say that's how far behind we fall when civilization colapses). They would be feared, hated, and likely killed. Or, to use a more modern analogy, say the power is NUCLEAR power. The first time people were exposed to it, we were afraid out of our minds! It destroyed a whole city with one blast! We don't know if it's going to be used against us or what. Eventually, we grow used to it and learn to harness it for our benifit. I imagine that kind of out come, supposing the AS come out of their shell. Which is exactly what would happen after TG. It will be a time of rebuilding and learning and what-not. And eventually, a return to the glory of the AOL, which is proven true by the idea of the wheel of time. There has to be a great civilization to fall when the 2nd age comes again.

 

Also im sure there were Ter'Angrealy that you did not need to wield the power to use. Such things being wide spread, and easy to get would definelty acclimate people to the power.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I understand that, but when you're dealing with over a thousand very powerful women who can channel, you can't rely on the honor system to keep order.

 

I'm sorry, but that is precisely what both the Aiel (a group of people very prone to infighting for at least a thousand years) and the Sea Folk (who have been operating in their way of life almost since the Breaking) both do.  Sea Folk Windfinders and Aiel Wise Ones are bound only by their individual social codes, and both of those systems seem to work fine.  In fact, the channelers in those systems are more trusted. 

 

Wise Ones are not feared for their ability to wield the Power.  Women like Sorilea who can barely channel, and like Bair, who cannot channel at all, are just as respected as women like Amys, who are, by comparison, much stronger in absolute terms.  The Windfinders ranking system is also based on things other than strength in the Power, and they are not feared for their ability.

 

The Three Oaths grew out of the distrust and fear of the Breaking.  But, like many solutions designed to cope with a specific problem, wihtout addressing the underlying causes, the Oaths actually perpetuate the fear and distrust that they are meant to heal.

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

I understand that, but when you're dealing with over a thousand very powerful women who can channel, you can't rely on the honor system to keep order.

 

I'm sorry, but that is precisely what both the Aiel (a group of people very prone to infighting for at least a thousand years) and the Sea Folk (who have been operating in their way of life almost since the Breaking) both do.  Sea Folk Windfinders and Aiel Wise Ones are bound only by their individual social codes, and both of those systems seem to work fine.  In fact, the channelers in those systems are more trusted. 

 

Wise Ones are not feared for their ability to wield the Power.  Women like Sorilea who can barely channel, and like Bair, who cannot channel at all, are just as respected as women like Amys, who are, by comparison, much stronger in absolute terms.  The Windfinders ranking system is also based on things other than strength in the Power, and they are not feared for their ability.

 

The Three Oaths grew out of the distrust and fear of the Breaking.  But, like many solutions designed to cope with a specific problem, wihtout addressing the underlying causes, the Oaths actually perpetuate the fear and distrust that they are meant to heal.

 

The Aiel Wise One system works fine? Remember Wise Ones using their power to fight? Yes, it was a new thing and completely broke ji'e'toh, but then that's what can happen with all these different cultures clashing. It's important to realize that until recently, Windfighters and the Aiel were relatively isolated groups. The situation is different with everyone together, cultures and beliefs clashing, and tensions running high.

 

Aes Sedai tend to cling on to old tradition with unnatural vigor and are in general very reluctant to do something new. They would need LOTS of time to adjust. I don't see retired Aes Sedai functioning without oaths in the near future, but maybe it is something that could work in the long run, the long long run.

[ApostleofJordan]

Well, of COURSE it would take a long time! Any major change takes a while! It would 1) take a while for people to get use to the power (because I have to push my point), 2) wise ones only started fighting under times of extreme duress (y'know, two different prophesised messaiah figures) and 3) the Wise Ones and Windfinders were isolated from other cultures, yes; but they still had some contact.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The Aiel Wise One system works fine? Remember Wise Ones using their power to fight? Yes, it was a new thing and completely broke ji'e'toh, but then that's what can happen with all these different cultures clashing.

 

Um, the Kin span all the same cultures that the Aes Sedai do, they're more numerous than the Aes Sedai, and have existed almost as long (2000 years).  They're not bound by the Oaths, but they function fine in society.

 

And even when the Wise Ones used the Power in battle at Dumai's Wells, the Aiel didn't suddenly become terrified that the Wise Ones would go crazy and kill them all.  They didn't demand that anyone who could channel take Oaths to make them "safe".

 

No, the Oaths are, ultimately, both a sign of distrust, and proof that distrust is warranted.  After all, if there was no reason to distrust and fear Aes Sedai, why would the Oaths be needed?  If the Oaths are necessary, then there must be reason to distrust and fear the Aes Sedai.  That is the message that the Oaths send to the nations.

[Luckers]

I think Robert has the right of it. Moreover, the Oaths a detrimental to the Aes Sedai, firstly because as a defining aspect on what makes then Aes Sedai it stops them from recalling that it is the individual that brings respect to the title, not the other way round. And secondly because it presents them with the position that that which isn't forbidden, is allowed, which is why Aes Sedai are, by and large, liars; irrespective if they do so by telling the truth.

 

As far as external judgement goes, the oaths only serve the purpose of drawing attention to the Aes Sedai; it lends the perception that without the oaths the Aes Sedai would be lying, murdering weapon-mongers. Moreover, it draws attention to everything they say--when you are constantly looking for the deception in someones words it is hard to respect them, much less trust them.

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

Robert, the Kin was trying to hide from the White Tower. They couldn't go around using the Power in obvious ways. It wasn't as hard to maintain order when most of the members used the Power very little.

 

About the rest though, you've convinced me that the Oaths perpetuate the fear and mistrust of Aes Sedai. I just think the whole change would take an insanely long time. More that my lifetime  ;D if I lived in Randland.