Rand: Crazy or Crazily Sane??

[RobertAlexWillis]

That is an excellent point, matt.  We shouldn't underestimate the mental effect of living in what has essentially been constant physical torture since the events of The Great Hunt.  Constant pain has a way of degrading the mind, or at the very least, making the mind more prone to other stresses.

[The Dragon Reborn]

you all are mentioning the big things (the taint,torture,pressure,etc.) but what about the dragons on his arms min her self said those still hurt plus the brands on his palms the wound on his side this stuff ads up on a man then he lost his hand and hes never let all that go just keeps it to himself and a lot of his stress comes from trying to keep his ladys safe if they wernt in danger it would help

Ya, I'd almost forgot about that stuff, he's had it for so long now that just forgot to consider it. Min says that she doesn't even know how he can stand, the pain is so intense.

I think this chanting of all the women who have died for is really messing with his head. He really punishes himself for that. It aint healthy, the faster Mat produces Moiraine the better, between that and Cadsuane having to make him cry and laugh again in AMoL, we may see a somewhat healthier (mentally) Rand for Tarmon Gai'don. With Nynaeve's help he could be physically healthier too.

Off topic a little...Rand doesn't know he's going to be a dad yet...? Might cheer him up (or give him sombody else to worry about the safty of.)

[Darkness Incarnated]

RAW put it best, and what Matt pointed out, his constant pain, is a very important point. Study the reactions of the women who heal him, Nynaeve and Alanna; they shudder and ask him how he can stand so much pain.

It does him credit that he hasn't cracked yet, the man's mind is as hard (strong?) as a rock.

 

What p*sses me off is that almost everyone around him is scheming for their own ends, with practically no attention to the effects on their only savior.

 

Well, I guess the earth will keep turning (or should I say, the Wheel will keep turning), Dragon Reborn or not.

[Vambram]

RAW put it best, and what Matt pointed out, his constant pain, is a very important point. Study the reactions of the women who heal him, Nynaeve and Alanna; they shudder and ask him how he can stand so much pain.

It does him credit that he hasn't cracked yet, the man's mind is as hard (strong?) as a rock.

 

What p*sses me off is that almost everyone around him is scheming for their own ends, with practically no attention to the effects on their only savior.

 

Well, I guess the earth will keep turning (or should I say, the Wheel will keep turning), Dragon Reborn or not.

And THAT is why despite how crazy Rand may sometimes act, and despite the insane voice of Lews Therin within his mind, I'm gonna stand on the side that says Rand al`Thor is NOT going crazy. If he was going to go nuts, he would have lost it by now. However, Rand has learned how to deal with his pain, whether it be physical, mental, or emotional pain.

[The Dragon Reborn]

What p*sses me off is that almost everyone around him is scheming for their own ends, with practically no attention to the effects on their only savior.

 

Well, I guess the earth will keep turning (or should I say, the Wheel will keep turning), Dragon Reborn or not.

Actually the wheel won't keep turning this time, without Rand the DO will break free, destroy the Wheel and remake the world in his own image...lol :P

[Darkness Incarnated]

Agreed. Maybe he will worsen a bit, who knows, but he will not go completely  :o in the head. [This is to Vambram]

 

The Dragon Reborn, Rand is already worried enough about his women as it is. News that he is to be a father would normaly cheer up I would say, but due to his state, I think he would even be more worried.

 

Rand. 'I can't afford to pay attention to her [Elayne] anymore than I do, or she will be in more danger. Look at Min. The stubborn woman refuses to go, and I am too weak to send her away.

But those are my kids--my kids!

Yes, but I have to be hard. Hard as stone. Duty is lighter than a feather, heavier than a mountain.'

LTT. 'You are crazy.'

Rand. 'Shut up! Remember the deal. Until Tarmon Gai'don.'

 

;D

[Big Red Shed]

 

I dont think Rand is insane just yet but i would be disappointed if he didnt have a mad rampage at some point in the last book. Im rather hoping that Alanna will be killed and the breaking of the bond will push him over the edge. Not that ive got any thing against Alanna but i think its unlikely the others will die.

 

[Hagazussa]

He's crazy. He's dissociative and trying to make himself borderline psychopathic, he's also obsessive-compulsive. Lews Therin is schizophrenic. These are, for want of a better term, "opposite" forms of insanity. Their gestalt runs a chance of being relatively normal.

 

You can be psychopathic and schizophrenic at the same time. People often are. It will not negate the effects of one another, not in the least bit.

 

As for Rand, there is not a switch in people's head that have two markings, sane or insane, there is sliding degrees of mental health or lack of it. Rand is definitely not completely sane, there is not reason he should be. He channeled tainted Saidin for a few years before he cleansed it, that have affected him. But there are also factors that are not supernatural that have taken their toll. Just to mention a few. He lives under the knowledge that he will have to fight the most evil creature in the world, and die in the process and there is nothing he can do about it, he have seen many, many pepole die and have had to kill himself. He have been tortured, manipulated, betrayed and have thirteen of the most powerful mages in the world wanting him dead, under control or something else. For a long time he have lived under the knowledge that he would most likely one day go insane and kill all he love. And he have completely bonkers former incarnation chatting away in his head.

 

Now any one of these things could have driven anyone insane. It is a wonder Rand hold it together as well as he do. And add the supernatural damane done by the taint to the mundane stress and he must have a mind like steel to not be raving insane, witch he is not.

 

A for stress, yes stress kills and it makes pepole koko. Just to illustrate just how dangerous it is, not sleeping and working constantly. Not long ago, in Norway a man strangled his wife and his two children, then he went to have a drink, he then wrote a little note to the housekeeper that would come by in a day or two. You will find us in the bathroom. He then killed himself. The reason why this normal, stable family father snapped, as far as anyone knows, is that he was so overworked, working whit a deadline he worked day and night and hardly ever slept. If you live like that, eventually something have to give, your body or your mind. And the human mind is in reality a rather frail little thing.

[Darkness Incarnated]

 

I dont think Rand is insane just yet but i would be disappointed if he didnt have a mad rampage at some point in the last book. Im rather hoping that Alanna will be killed and the breaking of the bond will push him over the edge. Not that ive got any thing against Alanna but i think its unlikely the others will die.

 

 

Damn, there are things I never think of...

 

Like I had never considered the implications of the bond between Rand and Alanna (or any of his women) being broken, and Rand going nuts because of the effects. I remember what state Lan was in; add in Rand's less than stable mindstate, and you get the equivalent of a living, walking, er, nuclear bomb.

 

What do you think would happen if she died at the precise moment he is battling the Dark One? I'm seeing the Dark One deciding that remaking the Wheel in his own image is not important enough to face the madman before him, and instead making a run for it. >:(

[Guest cwestervelt]

There are numerous reasons why we can't really consider Lan's after loosing Moiraine as being a guideline for what happens to a Warder when the bond is broken.  For one thing, his bond was never actually broken, or, if it did break, it was simultaneously established with another Sister.

 

There is also the fact that Lan always had a rather unhealthy fatalistic streak in him.  Many Borderlanders show it to some degree, but Lan took it to extremes.  And passed the attitude on to Rand while he was at it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Um, cwestervelt, its pretty well established that when any Warder's Aes Sedai dies, or has the bond forcibly snapped (by being stilled) that the Warder goes pretty bonkers.  If you really want me to dig out all the examples and quotes, I will, but I'm feeling lazy at the moment, so please take my word for it.  We don't need Lan as an example to conclude that Rand's tenuous grip on reality and sanity would be catastrophically endangered if one of the women he was bonded to died.

[The Dragon Reborn]

Um, cwestervelt, its pretty well established that when any Warder's Aes Sedai dies, or has the bond forcibly snapped (by being stilled) that the Warder goes pretty bonkers.  If you really want me to dig out all the examples and quotes, I will, but I'm feeling lazy at the moment, so please take my word for it.  We don't need Lan as an example to conclude that Rand's tenuous grip on reality and sanity would be catastrophically endangered if one of the women he was bonded to died.

Considering Rand's physical condition, it just as likely that Rand would die along with the women bonded to him. It is mentioned a number of time that if an Aes Sedai dies suddenly, the warder can die too from the sheer shock of it.

[Darkness Incarnated]

Um, cwestervelt, its pretty well established that when any Warder's Aes Sedai dies, or has the bond forcibly snapped (by being stilled) that the Warder goes pretty bonkers.  If you really want me to dig out all the examples and quotes, I will, but I'm feeling lazy at the moment, so please take my word for it.  We don't need Lan as an example to conclude that Rand's tenuous grip on reality and sanity would be catastrophically endangered if one of the women he was bonded to died.

 

Considering Rand's physical condition, it just as likely that Rand would die along with the women bonded to him. It is mentioned a number of time that if an Aes Sedai dies suddenly, the warder can die too from the sheer shock of it.

 

Ah, but Rand is too stiff-necked and stubborn to just lie down meekly and flipp over  ;D

 

[Guest cwestervelt]

Um, cwestervelt, its pretty well established that when any Warder's Aes Sedai dies, or has the bond forcibly snapped (by being stilled) that the Warder goes pretty bonkers.  If you really want me to dig out all the examples and quotes, I will, but I'm feeling lazy at the moment, so please take my word for it.  We don't need Lan as an example to conclude that Rand's tenuous grip on reality and sanity would be catastrophically endangered if one of the women he was bonded to died.

 

Why am I not surprised you choose to bicker with everything I say?

 

Yes, I know what happens to Warders when the bond breaks is well established.  Why do you think I said Lan was not a good example in response to Darkness Incarnated's comments about him.  He didn't have the typical reaction because whatever reactions he had were suppressed by Myrelle.  The typical reaction occurs in Knife of Dreams when Sareitha and Vandene die.

 

Addition:  And in Lord of Chaos where a Warder flat out dies of shock when his Aes Sedai is burnt out.

[Darkness Incarnated]

My mistake here, I had forgotten that actually Lan's bond was passed to Myrelle. It's just that I remember him being in a rather disturbed state as he was seeking her out, one Aes Sedai (maybe Myrelle) remarks that Lan would not seek death as such, but he would also not go out of his way to avoid it. Egwene later remarks that there was death in his eyes (or something like that). Then that was simply due to his grief?

 

And it has abeen a while since I reak KoD, I honestly didn't remember a scrap about Vandene and Sareitha.

[Big Red Shed]

B*gger Lan and Myrelle....what would happen if Alanna where killed?

...

Rand would go beyond "callandor crazy"...!!

it could be the beginning of the Last Battle!!

 

[stoneface]

Answering the original question, I'd say that Rand is tottering on the edge, and could be considered insane already in several ways. 

 

Regarding Alanna:  Normally when an Aes Sedai dies (is killed, in the case of Vandene and Sareitha), the Warder goes wacko into a suicidal revenge mode and gets himself killed (end of problem).  However, Rand has four women who bonded him rather than just one, and has observed that the bond to Alanna is fuzzier (or words to that effect) since the trio bonded him.  Also, Rand is not easily influenced through the bond, as Alanna admitted even before the trio bonding.  I assume that his ability to resist is tied to his ability to channel, but I don't recall anything to support or disprove that. 

 

So, if Alanna dies, Rand may not be pushed into the revenge mode, but it may depend on what is going on at the time.  Most likely he will be in the middle of TG, and he will flip.  I like that thought above about the DO then running for cover, but it would be a bit of an anticlimax.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Why am I not surprised you choose to bicker with everything I say?

 

Because you choose not to remember the times I agree with you.

 

And cwestervelt, you ignore the other ways in which Rand and Lan are similar.  Lan had someone else holding his bond.  Well, unless all three girls and Alanna die at the same time, so will Rand.  Lan was able to recover somewhat because of his love of Nynaeve.  Well, if Alanna croaks, Rand still has his girls.

 

Nevertheless, Lan almost died before he got to Myrelle, because he began completely disregarding his personal safety, taking completely unnecessary risks.  That seems to me to be the most likely response from Rand as well.

 

So, in indicating the potential danger, Lan is perfectly fine as an example.  In fact, he may be the only good comparison.  As you yourself pointed out, Lan has even imparted much of his attitude toward death and duty to Rand.

[Darkness Incarnated]

Yeah, I believe Rand sees Lan as his mentor (or used to), not just a sword teacher, so I would not be surprised if they reacted the same way.

And, Rand doesn't seem to care about Alanna one way or another, she's an unwanted intrusion in his life. Wouldn't that reduce greatly his chances of suffering the aftermath of a broken bond? What could be traumatizing is if one of his ladies died, but that ain't gonna happen :D

[Guest cwestervelt]

Rob, I admit I shouldn't have made that statement.  I was frustrated at the time and that is always a dangerous state to be in when posting.

 

It sounds like we are in agreement on what would happen to Rand if Alanna would die.  His bond to Elayne, Min and Aviendha would suppress at least some of the usual effects of an Aes Sedai's death.

[Mr Ares]

Yeah, I believe Rand sees Lan as his mentor (or used to), not just a sword teacher, so I would not be surprised if they reacted the same way.

And, Rand doesn't seem to care about Alanna one way or another, she's an unwanted intrusion in his life. Wouldn't that reduce greatly his chances of suffering the aftermath of a broken bond? What could be traumatizing is if one of his ladies died, but that ain't gonna happen :D

No, Rand's feelings towards Alanna would have no impact on what Rand would experience if she died. That is an effect of the bond rather than of the feelings of the bonded.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Rob, I admit I shouldn't have made that statement.  I was frustrated at the time and that is always a dangerous state to be in when posting.

 

Its OK.  I'm a frustrating person.

 

On another note, the Venerable Rusty-Red God of War is correct, the "living death" is an effect of the bond.  It can be compounded by a Warder's affection for his Aes Sedai, but not lessened by a lack of good feeling.

 

Besides, Alanna is a woman.  Thats enough to sear her death into Rand's psyche right there.

[Mr Ares]

Rand can't get to that point, since Saidin is clean. However, he is also not mentally healthy -- partially his own doing, partially as a result of what has been done to him. (Lews Therin is both a cause and consequence of his mental problems, I think.) He could easily get worse -- and in fact, I think he will get worse before he gets better -- but the causes won't be supernatural. Most of Rand's mental illness could happen to someone in the real world too.

 

I don't think it's entirely fair to call him a git and just leave it at that. Rand is a good person who doesn't know how to handle everything that has happened to him. But that's realistic.

I'd have to agree, it's fairly certain that he's going to get worse, even one of the Forsaken (can't remember which) said there was no cure known in her time for what Rand's got going on in his head. In the Age of Legends there was no cure for the type of madness Rand has (not the taint kind, the dead people talking in your head kind.)

You're right about the 'git' thing too, you just can't call Rand a git, he's too cool and got too much stuff on his plate for that. Let somebody else try to handle the stuff Rand has to and see how they fair with it...

Semirhage (who gave us the information) and Graendal (who supposedly told it to Semirhage) don't have the foggiest idea about what is going on in Rand's head.  The best they can do is make a few guesses based on things they've heard, and attempt to sow doubt among Rand's followers.  Which is exactly why Semirhage brings it up.  She's implying she knows more than she does and attempting to undermine what trust people have in Rand.

 

Rand's situation, and likely that of other male channellers mentioned by Cadsuane, never existed in the Age of Legends.  He isn't hearing a voice that really isn't there.  He is hearing a voice that actually is there.  I can't find the source now, but I remember RJ indicating that the LTT voice in Rand's head is a result of the Taint having weakened the boundaries between his past and present lives.  Since the Taint, and Taint Related Illness are after Graendal and Semirhage's time, the aren't experts in the field.

Obviously Semi is trying to spread discord amongst Rand's followers, but that doesn't mean that she might not be telling the truth. After all, if the truth will work as well as, or better than, a lie, why not tell the truth? If "real voices" did happen in the AOL, and if they were as hard to get rid of as Semi suggests, then that is bad news for Rand. As for this situation not appearing in the AOL, prove it. You say RJ indicated that the taint weakened boundaries between past and present lives, but unless you can remember where you saw this quote, we can't give it any more weight than anyone else's opinion can we? If the madness is caused by the taint, but the taint doesn't cause any specific kinds of madness, which appears to be the case with the evidence in the books - more than one person has gone insane with no mention of voices, real or otherwise, then this madness would in essence be no different from any other form of madness, and Graendal, as an expert in this field, would be an expert on Rand's condition, or the closest thing to one. Of course, if you can turn up that quote, then everything's fine.

 

On another note, the Venerable Rusty-Red God of War is correct, the "living death" is an effect of the bond.  It can be compounded by a Warder's affection for his Aes Sedai, but not lessened by a lack of good feeling.

 

Besides, Alanna is a woman.  Thats enough to sear her death into Rand's psyche right there.

Aren't I always correct? Well, nearly always. And good point about the woman thing.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Graendal thinks similar things to herself about Rand/Lews Therin in her own POVs, as if its something she's seen before, so unless she's lying to herself to undermine her own confidence in Rand, Semirhage is just using a damaging truth to do her dirty work.

 

I don't doubt that Semi would lie without hesitation, should it serve her purpose, but if the truth works, why wouldn't she use it?

 

And there is no indication of any taint-specific form of madness.  Indeed, it seems that all the taint does is make one more susceptible to "normal" forms of madness, the potential insanity that exists in any human psyche.

 

Rand's "soul-madness" with Lews Therin is a classic case of haunting.  Person from the past died in failure and disgrace, and so hangs around bugging the living until the problem is solved and they can rest.  Lews Therin wasn't free to bug people in the regular way since his soul was stashed in Tel'aran'rhiod, so he just hitched a ride when Rand was Reborn.

 

Thats probably why Graendal as Kamarile Maradim Nindar had such difficulty with re-integration; you'd have to either fix the problem (and few persona's have problems that span 3000 years like Lews Therin's) or convince the "ghost" (and the host) that the problem doesn't matter (not very likely, if it kept them from going to the great beyond).

[Darkness Incarnated]

I must have my brain stacked in a vacuole somewhere for overlooking the very fact that Alanna is a woman, and that her death would certainly damage Rand  ???