*Spoilers for everything* I just finished books for the first time

[HeroOfTheCorn]

This post is going to be a long one I guess. Also noting that I read the books in my native language , so excuse me if I get a name or something wrong. For example I just found out Aram name , in my version they translated it to something like Eyram.

Last night I finished the books. Took me around 8 months to read through them. So there are so many stuff I want to discuss going in my head and I really don't have any friend that has read the series , so would like to make some topics here. I don't even know where to start because I have so many things and am making this sequences as I type.

So I will start with how I got into the books. I found out about the tv series. Decided to wait for few seasons to come out before picking it up. My girlfriend wanted us to watch it when season 2 came out , because she has seen season 1 before we met. So we watched both seasons. The series got me hooked hard. I've failed to find anything in the recent years that just keeps me attached and not wanting to check my phone or pause while watching it. The world , the costumes , the story it all felt amazing. So season 3 comes out and halfway through it I find out show is cancelled. Mind you I've read some things that show is butchered compared to books , but I haven't read the books and the show was entertaining to say the least. So I wanted to know how the story would unravel and finish and I decide it's time to pick up the books, even though 14 seems like a crazy number.

Reading through the first books I understood why book readers are angry. I just don't understand so many book - movie/series adaptations that decide to go rouge. You've been given something that has had success , if it didn't it wouldn't go to you. But you decided you know better and will make a whole lot of dumb unnecessary changes. Anyways still shout out to them because I wouldn't have picked up the books and would have just waited for the show to roll out for 15+ years?

Coming from the show I had the characters set up in this order:

Perrin - my favourite
Rand - coming in at second
Elayne - I fell in love with hills of Tanchico scene
Nynaeve - she was cool, had her ups and downs
Mat - show Mat was pain to watch , only towards season 3 I started getting to like him 
Egwene - her tv adaption was awful in my opinion 

Book versions however went quite quite different
Mat - by far my favourite, dude's been slaughtered by series
Egwene- I really liked her resilience, leadership , maybe the series would have gotten her to this point also if not cancelled , but still compared to show book Egwene is badass
Rand - I enjoyed his chapters , but can't really call him the best character, even though he is still on my positive side.
Elayne - I found her neutral at best. She's had some cool moments earlier in the series , but when she was in Caemlyn trying to win the succession war, oh my god I've never read something as boring as those chapters. I almost felt pain reading through those pages.
Perrin - He was still quite interesting and I remember when going back to Two rivers I coulnd't wait to get another chapter from him, he was my favourite still. But my oh my did that change , after Two rivers and Faile this dude has been a nightmare to read. He was a combination of Jon Snow - buh i dun wannit and Faile is everything , nothing else matter , who cares if the world is going to end, Faile this , Faile that. At least in the final moments of the final battle he went and helped Rand instead of going to search for Faile.
Nynaeve - This is the worst character for me by far. Saying that doesn't mean I didn't see her good side. Wanting to heal everyone and everything , being caring for her friends. However I found her awful, maybe if I didn't get her POV thoughts I wouldn't have hated her so much, but as it is I hated her.
Mind it I included only those 6 characters on purpose. Post is so long as it is and there are so many other things I want to discuss. 

Reading through the books I've heard of the slog and understood that this was enhanced by the wait time between books. The only book i've had troubles was Crossroads of Twilight . Thank god I was stuck at an airport + long flight I did get through half of that book in a day, but needed 3 weeks or 4 to get through the other half. The only book I felt like a chore to pick up and get through.

Overall I've felt the book very sexists. Both genders underestimated their opposite gender and were thinking they know best and the other gender are some caveman.

The other thing I felt is that we've got 14 books and in the same time they were too much and not enough. I would have liked to get a lot more POVs from the Forsaken, for the history of their youth, understand more about the dark one. I feel like there were so many unanswered questions , but I guess this is normal for such a lengthy series.

Usually I read through books and I don't even have time to think about them, because I finish them and I don't catch any foreshadowing. In this series I though I caught Mazrim Taim. First I was sure he must be a darkfriend because he said that he just don't feel the taint. I also didn't like moments when characters were dumbed down in order to get the story going. In this moment Rand didn't even though about him being connected to the dark one , even though it is the most logical though. There were many examples like this in the book were a POV character sees something obvious but is dumbed down. So after more reading I though I found the Holy Grail by connecting the dots and thinking Taim is Demandred. Only to get that he wasn't and I felt dumb. So obviously I searched this and found it Taim was Demandred it's just that the author decided to backdown, because it felt obvious...

I also couldn't say I can make a huge difference between Robert Jordan and Brian Sanderson beside that I've felt like Sanderson made the character curse more. People saying it is so obvious who wrote what make me feel dumb.

I didn't love the ending , maybe I liked it , but definitely didn't love it. I feel like a lot more of the good characters should have died. Also having Rand live and just disappearing into the sunset was soooo bad for me. The dude that spend 5+ books getting in a mental state that he has to die , just so Cadsuane to need to exist to get him out of it , he who beat himself with the women who died for him ( that was something that really agitated me , come on man have been dying for you too... ) to just whistle happily into the sunset, without letting know his father he is alive. Also if his 3 wives ( 3 is too much , should have been 2 in my opinion, I've never understood the point of foreseers like Min existing, if what she sees can't be changed , then what is the point if her existence and powers? Also Rand being with 2 women would have been better in my opinion , than 3 )  want to make it plausible the world to think he is dead... SHOW SOME GRIEVE , they were literally non-bothered to the fact their loved one is dead, and common people noticed it , but then they go and say "We must make sure people really believe he is dead" Not a good play.

Things I've felt like I needed and answer and didn't get one are:
Why did the dark one seals started to break/weaken just at this period of time, what caused it?
Why was there a dark one , but we never heard anything from the Creator? ( I understood that Nakomi is supposed to be the creator avatar , but that is far too little )
If the wheel keeps turning and the dragon keeps fighting the dark one, was there a dragon before Lews Therin or was he the first one? 
What was the song of the Tuatha'an they were searching for?
How did Rand go from crazy losing his mind, to totally perfect balanced Rand/Lewis and not a sight of craziness , without being healed by Nynaeve.
How the hell did the White tower had so much gold around the world? Like what is it they do that gets them gold? I remember Moraine getting into some city far from Tar'Valon and they just went and got gold like from a bank.

Last thing I've felt in the end of the book which is where my fan fiction would hit and still haven't checked online is:
I feel like Mat was Demandred before he turned to the Dark one. I've felt this vibe when the Heroes of the horn had the talk with him about every breath he takes is because of Rand.
So in my fanfiction mind the next fight of the Dragon reborn vs Dark one , Mat should be the leader of the dark side.
Anyways I've got so much more , but I don't think anyone would read through all of this mess.

To anyone who decided to read through all this and respond , you will be drafted in the Heroes of the horn. 

[Figs and Mice]

 Glad you enjoyed it , Hero ... and one plus for the TV show in that it brought you to the books.

 

Might have more comments on your queries later. But for now just to say I agree with you that Mat (my favourite character) was indeed done dirty by the show ; and that on the other hand I profoundly disagree about your summation of Nynaeve : she may have been a pain in the neck in the early books but she seemed to largely overcome (with a struggle) her less endearing characteristics as the story progressed ... ended up as my personal favourite female character so I am biased 😉

 

Welcome to the Forum !

[HeroOfTheCorn]

Thanks, 

 

Yeah I Think there were some issues with the original casted actor of Mat and this is probably why they cut him out of the story for a while.

 

And yes I do agree Nynaeve gets better over time, especially after Egwene did her a dirty number in Tel'aran'rhiod.

[chiamac]

So a few things as to some of your "why" questions. These books aren't that deep in lore, and a lot of it is because B. Sanderson or R. Jordan thought of something they wanted to include, and then they wrote it in. So why did the seals start to break, the plot wanted it to happen at that point, I mean when would be a better time? 

On the ending, I'm assuming that the really short chapters are what R. Jordan had already written or notated and were almost word for word. That ending makes way more sense when compared to the first few books. Other than the journey to get to the ending took a lot more books to set everything up, and even then it could have gone on longer. 

There was a little difference in the characters when B. Sanderson picked it up. He went down the "talk about feelings" route a little too much for me, but I get he needed to setup Rand laughing and that wouldn't have as much impact if he was set and knew what he needed to be. (If memory serves me, it's been a while). But after finishing it, and going through A New Spring and some of the first book for fun, it's more seamless than some want to make it out to be, at least for me. 

 

[HeroOfTheCorn]

Yeah It makes sense that the pattern has "send" Rand and all the others in the right place , when the seals are going to break. I was just curious why would they break , somewhere I read that every time someone swears loyalty to the dark one the seals would weaken and hence why they got so weak. 

 

And ending sounding more plausible to the first few books could be true, yeah. After all he did plan for it to be 3 books, not 14 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

On 4/5/2026 at 1:17 PM, HeroOfTheCorn said:

Why did the dark one seals started to break/weaken just at this period of time, what caused it?

The Seal over the Bore was always going to be temporary - I don't remember if this was known from the outset of the attempt by the Hundred Companions, especially as it was saidin only, or if this was one of the many things that Foretelling made explicit. Remember it is canon that the Pattern forms the Age Lace - the Bore is always made at the end of the Second Age and repaired at the end of the Third. Time is cyclical - the Bore must be made as it as already been repaired, and it must be repaired so it can be made again. 

 

What causes it? I'd guess at something hand-wavy like the evil of the Dark One seeping into Seal. Nasty stuff, liquid evil.

On 4/5/2026 at 1:17 PM, HeroOfTheCorn said:

Why was there a dark one , but we never heard anything from the Creator? ( I understood that Nakomi is supposed to be the creator avatar , but that is far too little )

The books don't go into a lot of "why". The Dark One is just one of their universal constants. I guess it must be necessary for the Creation of the Universe. The Creator does appear, rather bizarrely at the end of the Eye of the World, not really sure why Jordan included that as he never seemed to build on it or explain it at all. I could guess that maybe Rand was going to be much more literally the Creator's Champion at some point, but that is pure speculation. 

 

Outside of that the Creator is just the classic omnipotent creator god that moves in mysterious ways. Not to be questioned by us mere mortals. 

On 4/5/2026 at 1:17 PM, HeroOfTheCorn said:

If the wheel keeps turning and the dragon keeps fighting the dark one, was there a dragon before Lews Therin or was he the first one? 

There are no beginnings or ending in the Wheel of Time. There have been an infinite number of Dragons before and will an infinite number after. If you mean, is he reborn as the Creator's Champion in Ages other than the Second and Third - no idea. I don't believe canon even slightly touches upon this. 

On 4/5/2026 at 1:17 PM, HeroOfTheCorn said:

What was the song of the Tuatha'an they were searching for?

The songs of Growing (probably not actually called that, lol) that the Aiel sang in the fields with Nym and Ogiers in the Age of Legends. The closest thing that remained would be the Ogier treesong, and it was a near pain for me that not a single Tuatha'an was ever told that. An infinite amount of searching and suffering throughout endless Third Ages, and no one ever tells them. So frustrating.

On 4/5/2026 at 1:17 PM, HeroOfTheCorn said:

How did Rand go from crazy losing his mind, to totally perfect balanced Rand/Lewis and not a sight of craziness , without being healed by Nynaeve.

He accepted his fate rather than fighting it, iirc. Not sure - I'm not a great fan of the attempts at philosophy in the book and I may have glossed over the whole top of Dragonmount as his conclusions, to me at least, make zero sense in a cyclical time line. Doing better then next time means nothing when you always have to come back to the same spot. No matter what you do, everything is going to end up the same regardless. Rand's madness tends to come and go as the plot needs, for me it worse in the Dragon Reborn where Rand goes totally feral and barely seems to have a grip on himself at all then reverts to being completely sane when he reaches Tear. 

On 4/5/2026 at 1:17 PM, HeroOfTheCorn said:

How the hell did the White tower had so much gold around the world? Like what is it they do that gets them gold? I remember Moraine getting into some city far from Tar'Valon and they just went and got gold like from a bank.

Can't say I know the specifics, but like magic, dude. 

On 4/5/2026 at 1:17 PM, HeroOfTheCorn said:

Last thing I've felt in the end of the book which is where my fan fiction would hit and still haven't checked online is:
I feel like Mat was Demandred before he turned to the Dark one. I've felt this vibe when the Heroes of the horn had the talk with him about every breath he takes is because of Rand.

If you mean literally - they are both alive at the same time so they cannot be the same soul. I have seen people speculating, maybe about the show, I cannot remember, that Lews Therin, Lanfear, Ishamael, and others were comparable to Third Age Team Rand, and the reason that Lews Therin failed was that they failed, not him. But in canon, they could not literally be the same people (or at least reborn souls like Lews Therin/Rand), though I guess the Pattern could be using them as analogues or some such. 

 

It of course also gets a bit more confusing when you consider that Rand is the Creator's Champion, but the Pattern is interested in balance, not the victory of the Light. So it seems like counting ta'veren as only forces for good would wrong - if the Light was too strong, the Pattern would even things up - perhaps with a Shadow aligned Mat.

 

Welcome to Dragonmount, Hero 🙂 (sorry where are my manners?) Hope you have a great time here. 

 

Though the only thing I'd like to point out that many people that love the books also loved the show, many also couldn't care less and many hated it. But it would be wrong to assume that any one group's subjective opinion is somehow better than another's.

[HeroOfTheCorn]

Wow , thanks for the lengthy reply.

 

Yeah , I see that the creator should be mysterious and not all for light , after all he created the pattern , which should be balanced. 

The song part seems reasonable, since I've completed the books I did a lot of reading from fans on subjects I find interesting and someone wrote that even if someone told the Tuatha'an the song , they would still not accept that this is what they were searching for.

 

When Rand was standing on top of the mountain he was thinking about just destroying everything like Moridin wanted, but had a change of hearth when thinking that Ilyena is also going to be reborn. Personally to me also those philosophical thoughts don't make any sense. If you believe that suffering is just endless and you get reborn into suffering , then why is it a good thing that Ilyena would be reborn. But hey philosophy never had right and wrong.

And lastly about Mat and Demandred , no I don't think they are the same person or same soul. I just had the feeling from the scene in Ebou dar , when Rand appear to talk to Tuon, that Mat is just super competitive when it comes to Rand and wants to best him at everything. So in that regard he really reminded me of Demandred. So when Mat had the talk with the heroes of the horn, where someone told him that he's alive only because Rand saved him, this to me is where villains are born lol. So I would not be surprised at all that you got this dude, who is super capable , feels underappreciated, that would go on to want revenge on the dragon reborn, because in his head he is the one getting all the glory and attention. Again all of that is just in my head as a fanfiction.

[chiamac]

59 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

quoting some of your post... too long to include here. 

So a few quick things. Rand being the creators champion. I'm reading Belgariad at the moment and some of the setup is pretty similar. In that series the voice in the main characters head IS what would be here the Creator, and or the good gods played a larger role in the outcome. That series also has a similar set of the classic "the group" that could be tied here to the concept of  ta'veren. I have the opinion that after the first few books R. Jordan really re-tooled the story and started to go down a different path with some of his ideas. But yeah, it's just odd having a story with a very directly involved evil side and what seems to be an uninvolved good side, given the stakes - but RJ's whole setup and concept there is odd, so par for the course. 

Going back to what Hero said about Mat. We saw the Horn take on a new member in the course of the story we read and in that timeline. We don't know I guess if he was already in it, and born out of it, but either way he is there and we read of comments that this can happen. When Mat asks about it, he isn't given an answer, not even one like in the first books of "maybe you can be one". Which leads me to think that the pattern weaves out at least 3 people together at a time who are different - the hornblower, the banner man, and the Dragon. Or, looking at it a step back from the horn - the general, the wolf person, and the Dragon. So I view them all as personalities that have come before, and have been involved in these events countless times. 

IMO just bored this afternoon 
 

 

[HeroOfTheCorn]

But he actually did get confirmation. In MoL he asks Arthur Hawkwing and he replies that Mat is not part of the heroes of the horn , but he is also baffled why. In his opinion he's done plenty to be included , but just isn't