My Re-Read of Crossroads (this is really happening)

[WoTwasThat]

Well, here we go. My re-read has arrived at Crossroads. I hated this book when I first read it. But my hope is that, much like Crown, POD, and WH, I am misremembering some good stuff and if I hit Crossroads with a running start (meaning I’ve got at least 10% of the rando Aes Sedai and other bit players straight in my head) it will be better. 

The Prologue. EIGHTY PAGES and I don’t care about a single thing happening here. We start with Rodele Iterlude parleying with other leaders in Arad Domon. Don’t care. Not gonna care.
 

Then we’ve got Eamon Valda doing… Whitecloak things. Don’t care. Not gonna care.

 

Next up Logain who bonded two Aes Sedai. He’s having sex with one of them. I like Logain, but I don’t care about this.
 

Then some Aes Sedai names Yukiri is walking around the White Tower. There is much sniffing and crossing of arms beneath breasts and smoothing of skirts and just general cat fighting among many sisters I’m not gonna bother naming. Gah this is terrible don’t care / not gonna care. 

 

Ov my lord, we’re back to Gawyn next. He’s sooo in love with Egwene. He does nothing notable. Per usual.

 

Davram Bashere - who I like - basically sits on his horse and talks about nothing important. Then his wife is attacked. But lives. Ok?

 

And finally another Aes Sedai in Cairhien, again not really doing anything. At least Loial makes an appearance. He closed the way gates. Ok. Then somebody tries assassinate Dobraine! K that’s at least a little exciting.

 

We’re not off to a good start.

 

But then we get a few Mat chapters which are slow but generally ok. Basically a flashback to their escape from Ebou Dar. Even though they’re hunkering down with Valan Luca’s circus. Remember from Fires of Heaven? This is still a thing. There is at least a genuinely funny moment when Tuon is throwing things at Mat and she grabs the chamber pot and Setalle is like “we need that - here use this cup we have plenty of these.”

 

And then we get one of the worst chapters of the whole dang series about a Seanchan general thinking about Tuon’s doll.

 

Not great, Bob. Not great. But plowing ahead. 

[WoTwasThat]

The Perrin chapters. Slow. I’d forgotten the darkhound thing. I also can’t remember if it mattered at all. They find Shaido. And the aqueduct. It’s all very slow. But at least it’s not Elayne. And the channelers become aware of Rand/Nyn starting the cleansing.

 

At least there is something happening. Albeit really slowly. I remembered this book as the one where everyone just sits around and talks.

 

Ok - on to some Faile chapters?

[WoTwasThat]

One Faile chapter. It’s fine. Slow. Not much happens. Some of the wise ones notice the cleansing. K. Whatever.

 

Then an Elayne chapter where she thinks about being pregnant and how much she wants a drink. Elayne seems to spend a lot of time thinking about being pregnant and missing booze. Is she a closet alcoholic? She and Avi notice the cleansing. K. Whatever.

 

Up next another Elayne chapter. The good news is, thanks to the insanely long and meandering prologue I nearly halfway through this slog of a book already. 

[chiamac]

From what I can remember, I liked how the cleansing served to put all the separate stories on the same timeline. Before this we really didn't have any sense of where in time everyone was, so at least it was nice to see some perspective. So it went better for me that way, than some of the books before. 

[WoTwasThat]

Man the middle of this book… I am getting some Elayne chapters, and I am getting them good and hard. Just terrible. The last one she basically took a bath. And then talked to a Sea Folk person - can’t even be bothered to remember the name. Zaida?

 

The problem with the Elayne chapters is that it isn’t just Andoran Succession boredom - it’s that most of the other tedious storylines are included here, too. The Sea Folk “bargain” fallout. The Kin. The royal guard.

 

And they’re still going. I’ve spent three chapters in Andor - 10-12 - and Chapter 13 is still more Elayne.

 

Gotta say, unlike my misremembering of Crown, POD, and WH - which are all quite a bit better than I remembered - my recollection of Crossroads was spot on. Just terrible. It really says something that the Faile captivity bits are the interesting part so far. 

[WoTwasThat]

Chapter 16 finally gets me AWAY FROM ELAYNE. On to the Salidar faction. Will it be any better? I don’t think it could possibly be worse. After Chapters 10-15 in Caemlyn, I am hanging by my fingernails. Even the half-chapter from the POV of the bad guy was boring. I have nothing else to say about what I just read. Total, irrelevant garbage.

 

ONWARD!

[WoTwasThat]

Egwene. I don’t like her. Used to like her. She seems to be making a lot of terrible decisions since being implausibly raised to Amyrlin. 
 

First, how have neither she nor Siuan figured out the Halima thing yet? Come on.
 

Second, her “plan” for laying siege to Tar Valon is stupid. She should take her freaking general’s advice. They have one military advantage - and advantage that even she realizes could slip away any day - and she refuses to use it.

 

This foolishness is on pay with sending Elayne to Ebou Dar.

 

Still slogging forward. This book really is the one where the series took a steep decline. 

[WoTwasThat]

I think part of my frustration - maybe a big frustration - with all the Aes Sedai stuff is that they are having debates wholly ignorant of what’s actually going on with Rand and the Black Tower. And I don’t recall that there’s ever any real payoff to this ignorance.

 

And as much as I’ve mocked the forsaken for their incompetence - at least the bad guys have regular staff meetings to confer with each other. The good guys rarely even do that. And even when they do, like when Avi meets Egwene in TAR, Avi could have told Eg that Rand and Nyn were involved in “the Beacon” but Avi inexplicably chooses to remain silent.

 

So everyone, and the Aes Sedai in particular, just muddle around. And it is particularly frustrating if, like me and I would guess much of the readership, you believe Rand is the central protagonist to the story and even the “good” Aes Sedai just won’t get out of the dang kitchen and let the man cook!!

[chiamac]

15 hours ago, WoTwasThat said:

I think part of my frustration - maybe a big frustration - with all the Aes Sedai stuff is that they are having debates wholly ignorant of what’s actually going on with Rand and the Black Tower. And I don’t recall that there’s ever any real payoff to this ignorance.

 

Kind of my broken record comment lately about a sense of timing. We hear now and then that Rand is in a hurry, that the last battle is coming up, and time is running out. But, we never get a sense that either anyone is taking that seriously, or a deadline for when the battle will take place. I guess, if my memory is correct, we see some kind of an urgency in book 3 but then that's all lost. 

As far as Rand really turning the corner and driving events, to me that really starts to happen around the end of Gathering Storm. I mean he is doing things, obviously, before that time, but that's when he really transcends and takes control. 

But yeah, to me the point of these books is vaguely that "everyone needs to get along" and what happens when all these groups don't trust each other. I'm not to the end of the end yet, but more in the middle of the end, and like you said, there is a lot of muddling around still. 

[WoTwasThat]

Chapter 21. In a shocking - and I don’t think very well explained reversal - Elaida has suddenly grown a backbone and Alviarin timid as a mouse. I’m very confused. What, exactly, changed?

 

Alvi goes back to her rooms to cry or something and gets out her pager for Mesaana. Now here’s an interesting little throwaway nugget I had completely forgotten: “standing flows” that allowed anyone in the Age of Legends to use some ter’angreal. Hat tip to RJ - he dreamed up Starlink at least a decade before Elon Musk!

 

Mesaana shows up. Then Shaidar Haran. Some bad guy stuff ensues. Interesting I guess, but herein lies I think the single biggest weakness with WOT: there is no unifying theory or motivations to the actions of the bad guys. Whether that be the DO or Forsaken or whatever. And the rote response is “chaos” but to what end? The most effective strategy would be to just kill the DR, and there are seemingly plenty of opportunities for the DO to do so if he can literally walk around in the form of SH, and he’s also got Moridin using the True Source.

 

I always thought it would have been interesting if it turned out is was just as impossible to kill the DR as the DO and Creator, but isn’t the direction the series went. Instead, the DO just seems kind of incompetent at the end of the day. 

Edited October 20 by WoTwasThat

[chiamac]

1 hour ago, WoTwasThat said:

I always thought it would have been interesting if it turned out is was just as impossible to kill the DR as the DO and Creator, but isn’t the direction the series went. Instead, the DO just seems kind of incompetent at the end of the day. 

 

Trying to keep this quick, but just to agree with that. He comes so close to putting a lot of things together. The DR, Taveren, Horn of Valere, and even male channelers hearing voices (to me to imply they could be reborn or reliving someone), but then (I have a few books to go) RJ never really turns the corner and puts it all together. 

[WoTwasThat]

19 hours ago, chiamac said:

Trying to keep this quick, but just to agree with that. He comes so close to putting a lot of things together. The DR, Taveren, Horn of Valere, and even male channelers hearing voices (to me to imply they could be reborn or reliving someone), but then (I have a few books to go) RJ never really turns the corner and puts it all together. 

There is a chapter maybe in LOC where Moridin is musing over some semblance of a chess board where “The Fisher King” is obviously the Dragon and there are three ways to win the game:

 

- Capture the King and move him onto a square of your color on the goal row behind your opponent. 

• - Force your opponent to move the Fisher King onto a square of your color anywhere along the goal row.
• 
  - Kill every piece belonging to your opponent. Moridin considers this way extremely destructive and chaotic. He contemplates that he tried it just once and failed, which was painful.

Ok. Intriguing. And yet RJ never really explains how any of this is actually playing out. And without a coherent strategy, or even conflicting strategies, or even “chaos” being clearly explained in the books, the “bad guys” are basically just reduced to a plot convenience - they’re just doing whatever is needed at the time to advance the plot, even if what they are doing and perhaps more importantly not doing makes little sense. 

[WoTwasThat]

Sigh… how bad is this book? Even the Rand chapters are boring. He sits at a manor, and then makes the dubious decision that rather than dealing with the immediate threat of the Mazrim Taim subverting the Black Tower, his next move is… truce with the Seanchan.

 

Keep in mind, he literally just visited Far Madden to hunt renegade Asha’man who tried to kill him, but suddenly that takes a back seat to the ‘Chan. Ok….

 

And now we’re back to a Perrin chapter. Which appears to be entirely about him scrounging up some coin and jewels to feed his army. Gah. 

[chiamac]

22 hours ago, WoTwasThat said:

Ok. Intriguing. And yet RJ never really explains how any of this is actually playing out. And without a coherent strategy, or even conflicting strategies, or even “chaos” being clearly explained in the books, the “bad guys” are basically just reduced to a plot convenience - they’re just doing whatever is needed at the time to advance the plot, even if what they are doing and perhaps more importantly not doing makes little sense. 

 

But at the same time, and maybe you meant this with that last sentence. The good guys score wins, eliminate forsaken, and are generally winning. Sure it could be plot armor, but RJ is hinting that this time in this age is weaving in people who are as powerful as those in the past.

 

Which again is an interesting take on things. After we get done with the DO stuff in the first few books, it falls back on basically regular people with powers, and we get to see those people have limits, make mistakes, or at least aren't infallible. Which is a little different than spiritual beings in human form sent or representing whatever good or bad god figures are there. 

 

He just never takes it that next step or seems to have anything underneath it to support what's going on on a theology or spiritual level. 

But anyway, he writes action really well, and it will be nice to dwell more on the details the next time I read this. Even if it's boring at times. 

[WoTwasThat]

2 hours ago, chiamac said:

He just never takes it that next step or seems to have anything underneath it to support what's going on on a theology or spiritual level.

Yeah agreed. This will be a topic for when I get to the final book, but I remember being a little dissatisfied as to how the final confrontation played out. To me, it seemed like the best ending would be for Rand to discover that the Creator and DO are both essential to the turning of the Wheel itself - like a positive and negative current - and that the Dragon’s only job was to restore balance between the two. That seemed like the natural conclusion because “balance” and “duality” (male/female, saidar/saidin) are both major themes in the series. But I don’t recall the ending really going in that direction.

 

One of the things I’ve been looking for in this re-read is a coherent explanation of the overall struggle and the actions of the bad guys. I haven’t found it. Not yet, at least.

 

The other thing I was looking for was whether the “slog” would be as bad with a straight read through. I was partly wrong - I’ve been pleasantly surprised how enjoyable everything was through Winter’s Heart - but Crossroads is indeed a pretty terrible book. The Slog is at least somewhat real. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Have you factored in the Dark Prophecies? There is no reason to think they are any less Foretellings than those of the Light. 

 

It is never made clear if Rand dies if that just means that the Fourth Age will be a bad place to be, or if the Pattern will prevent that or correct it somehow. The Pattern must seal the Bore, otherwise there would be a paradox. The DO needs Rand to submit, so possibly the requirements for that are the same as sealing the Bore. That is why the Shadow isn't going all out to destroy Rand, that isn't their goal. They are possibly actually (when following the DO's orders at least) trying to set up exactly the same situation as Rand is trying to. 

 

The battle could be seen against the allies of both who are trying to derail their plans either through ignorance or selfishness. The main problem for Rand is everyone in the Light thinks they know more than him, the main problem for the DO is he wants to destroy the Wheel, his followers think they want to control the Earth. Only Ishamael is a true believer. 

Edited October 22 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade

[chiamac]

1 hour ago, WoTwasThat said:

One of the things I’ve been looking for in this re-read is a coherent explanation of the overall struggle and the actions of the bad guys. I haven’t found it. Not yet, at least.

 

I don't think there really was one, and I think RJ made a mistake in the first few books when the DO claims to control the underworld (or however it was phrased). Which then setup a really weird system of hands off good god, but a very hands on bad god that controls what we would consider all of the afterworld. Maybe in the original story line there is some redemption there where the DO would be barred from controlling this and letting all souls be free, maybe not. 

It's also interesting because the first few big battles in the first few books had Rand magically transport to fight the DO in various places. We don't see that again. I have a feeling the original storyline had a last battle that was similar with mysticism and then was refashioned later as books 3-4-5 got going. 

We also see the portal stones not be used, no more mystical people or places like the Green Man, so the story is toned down a lot from where it started. As I'm getting farther into the "new" Sanderson books, as I've mentioned before, I can see how RJ could have wanted to wrap things up after the first few books but just needed more time and then got bogged down. 

Which leads to the "bad guys" as far as the forsaken. I think that was a retcon once RJ figured he'd need some kind of struggle and conflict as he built up the characters for the last battle. This is where we start to see whoever fit into the role as the DO in the first few books - at least it seemed to be that WAS meant to the DO originally... So them not having a defined role or struggle makes sense, because they could have just been there to be there and not anything more. I mean RJ may have seen this and then started this nablis system to rank them and give them something to bicker over. 

I don't really feel any of this takes away from the story. It's still worth a read and a person can find some great action scenes and moving moments in these books. But, there isn't going to be a moral epiphany or anything really deep to take away, other than "death is light as a feather, duty heavier than a mountain". 

 

[WoTwasThat]

19 minutes ago, chiamac said:

I don't think there really was one, and I think RJ made a mistake in the first few books when the DO claims to control the underworld (or however it was phrased). Which then setup a really weird system of hands off good god, but a very hands on bad god that controls what we would consider all of the afterworld. Maybe in the original story line there is some redemption there where the DO would be barred from controlling this and letting all souls be free, maybe not. 

…

 

Which leads to the "bad guys" as far as the forsaken. I think that was a retcon once RJ figured he'd need some kind of struggle and conflict as he built up the characters for the last battle. This is where we start to see whoever fit into the role as the DO in the first few books - at least it seemed to be that WAS meant to the DO originally... So them not having a defined role or struggle makes sense, because they could have just been there to be there and not anything more. I mean RJ may have seen this and then started this nablis system to rank them and give them something to bicker over. 

I don't really feel any of this takes away from the story. It's still worth a read and a person can find some great action scenes and moving moments in these books. But, there isn't going to be a moral epiphany or anything really deep to take away, other than "death is light as a feather, duty heavier than a mountain". 

 

You raise a really good point about the “hands off” Creator versus the “hands on” DO.

 

But as for RJ retconning anything, I dunno. Maybe he retconned some things later on, but I think RJ intended from the very first book for Ishy to be posturing as the DO. I mean, there’s a reason that Ishy is featured in the Prologue.

 

I think the sad fact is that the bad guys - even the DO himself - is more of a plot device than a carefully constructed and logical thing. I certainly haven’t seen any cohesive explanation 10 books into the series. Best I can tell…

• The Forsaken want power and immortality and they’ll do whatever the DO demands to stay in his good graces - makes sense - but they don’t work in concert to achieve… whatever it is the DO wants.
• We know Ishy is a nihilist. He’s just sick and tired of the endless cycle and wants to end it all. That at least makes sense. Although again it’s difficult to see how his actions are directed at that end.
• I have no idea what the DO wants. “Chaos” is a cop out. Evidently he wants free of his prison? He’s already doing a good job degrading the seals. Why doesn’t he want to kill the Dragon? Or does he? Ishy said the Dragon was even turned evil in prior spinnings, and yet this didn’t “break the wheel” or free the DO for good? That doesn’t make sense. 

I dunno. I’ve wasted too much time trying to ponder this. I don’t think there is an answer and I don’t think RJ had an answer, either. 

[WoTwasThat]

2 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Have you factored in the Dark Prophecies? There is no reason to think they are any less Foretellings than those of the Light. 

 

It is never made clear if Rand dies if that just means that the Fourth Age will be a bad place to be, or if the Pattern will prevent that or correct it somehow. The Pattern must seal the Bore, otherwise there would be a paradox. The DO needs Rand to submit, so possibly the requirements for that are the same as sealing the Bore. That is why the Shadow isn't going all out to destroy Rand, that isn't their goal. They are possibly actually (when following the DO's orders at least) trying to set up exactly the same situation as Rand is trying to. 

 

The battle could be seen against the allies of both who are trying to derail their plans either through ignorance or selfishness. The main problem for Rand is everyone in the Light thinks they know more than him, the main problem for the DO is he wants to destroy the Wheel, his followers think they want to control the Earth. Only Ishamael is a true believer. 

No offense intended, but I’m not following anything you’re saying. Maybe you can try to explain it a different way. 

[chiamac]

28 minutes ago, WoTwasThat said:

I dunno. I’ve wasted too much time trying to ponder this. I don’t think there is an answer and I don’t think RJ had an answer, either. 

 

My bad, I thought it was the DO in the prolog and then in the first few books, I'll have to change that opinion now to Ishy. However, that doesn't really change much else. 

To me the general forsaken are kind of the counter to what gets setup with our main characters who can channel. The "good" has powerful members, so does the "bad". I get there was more squabbling between the forsaken (well and the good channelers too for that matter) but I think that was more for RJ to do more with them. 

 

Ishy destroying the whole pattern is a good thought. We see Rand tempted with this, and I have no reason to doubt he could have done that, before turning away and laughing - or however that went. So that's a good compare and contrast in characters. Although at that point why have a DO and or why have a good god figure that's not involved. I'd think the struggle, if the whole universe was at stake, would involve a supreme power that didn't want that to happen... 

Unless RJ was trying to setup the invisible hand that guides events in something like LOTR. Which is my suspicion, but he never really turns the corner on it and gets there. 

I should edit this quick and say that in reading about Ishy on some wot wiki it mentions that he finally thought the DO didn't change in each spinning and was destined to fail. This kind of reminds me of LOTR and the defeat of Morgoth. However there we seem to have a bit more lore and legends supporting who they were, the power they had, and why they were able to fall than in wot. So maybe that's what RJ was getting at, but still there is a lot going on. 

Edited October 22 by chiamac

[WoTwasThat]

We spend a few chapters with Mat and Tuon. Yawn.

 

And for the “grand finale” final chapter we get Egwene squaring off against Romanda and Lelaine. Is this the second worst storyline aside from Andoran Succession? I think maybe.

 

And let’s toss in the names of at least 73 other women I mostly cannot remember. We are treated to scintillating discussion about whether Aes Sedai should use the Oath Rod, and whether Aes Sedai should enslave Asha’man. All culminating if Egwene executing her dumb plan and getting captured. The End.

 

God this book sucks. Arriving at it on a straight read-through did not help at all. It’s not quite as bad as I remembered from the first time I read it maybe 15 years ago? But just awful all the same.

 

Well, at least that’s done. On to Knife. I think I remember things getting marginally better. 

[Figs and Mice]

Having just finished Book 9 on this re-read , I am embarking again on Crossroads of Twilight (a volume I confess hasn't remained as vivid as many in my memory) with something of a heavy heart...  So probably was an unwise choice of mine to read your above comments , WoTwasThat  🙂

 

But I did get a laugh out of some of them.  Hope I don't suffer as much as you going through this one : it is only 600 odd pages , after all ...

[WoTwasThat]

12 hours ago, Figs and Mice said:

Having just finished Book 9 on this re-read , I am embarking again on Crossroads of Twilight (a volume I confess hasn't remained as vivid as many in my memory) with something of a heavy heart...  So probably was an unwise choice of mine to read your above comments , WoTwasThat  🙂

 

But I did get a laugh out of some of them.  Hope I don't suffer as much as you going through this one : it is only 600 odd pages , after all ...

Will be interested to hear your take. 

[Figs and Mice]

Nearly half way into Crossroads (reading much slower than you , WoTwasThat ) and not finding it quite as bad as I feared...probably because I had resolved to make this series read through a very leisurely stroll.

 

Prologue seemed to be about introducing several new strands into the story : one could argue the necessity ; but obviously RJ wanted to fill in a lot of detail about what was happening in the land away from our regular characters...and the threads started here did actually go somewhere in later books so can't really complain about it too much.

 

Lot of time with Perrin : a distinctly mixed blessing. He does a fair bit of interesting stuff over the series  ; but boy does he waffle on in his head for pages on end - I could really do with less of his introspectives , especially fussing about this and that Aes Sedai or the scents surrounding his companions. The whole Faile Capture thing is well under way and I honestly find some of it quite readable ; but here at times RJ does seem to get bogged down in too much intricate detail. Example : pages 240/241 and nearly a whole page devoted to detailed description of How to Wash and Dry Silk Garments in the open air...OK only a page , but still...  On the other hand one might say it is the way in which he paints every little detail of the scenes that makes the WOT such an immersive experience : more than many works , in this one you can actually feel you are present in this world and witnessing the action.

 

Of course in all the various POVs up to here we are getting flashes referring to characters' awareness of Something Big happening , ie The Cleansing ; so marking where everyone is at this particular point in time.  Necessary , I guess , with all the different groups scattered around the continent ; so if it does seem to be a bit of a Going nowhere fast volume , we can understand the reasons.

 

As for Mat and Tuon I can always enjoy any time with Mat.  Even in the Circus.

 

On to chapter 10 and will see what Elayne is up to ...

 

[Figs and Mice]

Ah yes...what Elayne is up to...

 

Should have remembered.  Think this is probably the most excruciating part of the whole story : not the actual succession thread but all the fussing about the Aes Sedai/Servants/Guardswomen and their reactions  ; not to mention Aviendha and Birgitte nurse-maiding her through pregnancy .  I mean I love those two characters but not so much their roles in this part : just overdone.

 

Moving on slowly but finding these chapters the Ultimate Slog... I know it will get better soon   end eventually... 😎