Will the Seanchan cull the ability to channel?

[Bentrudagi]

Quote

 

In my latest re-read, I just got to where Aviendha walked through the columns in in Towers of Midnight seeing the possible future of the Aiel after the Last Battle. In the visions, we can infer that the Seanchan have taken the White Tower and are rounding up all of the channelers they can get their hands on, men and women. 

Assuming, that they do not allow Damane to pro create, will their actions lead to culling the ability to channel leading the world back to an Age where channeling is forgotten? 

Thoughts?

Thanks

[Loose Theremin]

7 hours ago, Bentrudagi said:

In my latest re-read, I just got to where Aviendha walked through the columns in in Towers of Midnight seeing the possible future of the Aiel after the Last Battle. In the visions, we can infer that the Seanchan have taken the White Tower and are rounding up all of the channelers they can get their hands on, men and women. 

Assuming, that they do not allow Damane to pro create, will their actions lead to culling the ability to channel leading the world back to an Age where channeling is forgotten? 

Thoughts?

Thanks

 

Good question ! In the books this came up with some of the Aes Sedai arguing that the reason there were fewer Novices in the Tower was because the Red Ajah had been culling the men who could channel. It made sense to me and explained why the Aes Sedai numbers were steadily declining over time. So if the Seanchan were doing the same thing then the same effect would happen.

 

But Robert Jordan contradicted this when the Black Tower was established and suddenly men who could channel were popping up like mushrooms. So that didn't make sense to me.

 

I would have liked RJ to have included a sub-plot where the Green Ajah were carrying out a secret breeding program with men who could channel to ensure that the ability to wield the one power didn't die out. Can you imagine the Red Ajah going ballistic when they found out about it !

Edited September 27 by Loose Theremin

[Andra]

I don't believe that vision was showing the end of channelers.  It was showing the end of the AIEL.

Because the Aiel had started a war with the Seanchan that they couldn't win, which resulted in their extermination.

Even if the Seanchan had taken the White Tower, too much of their power structure was based on channeling to wipe it out.  And since now male channelers were safe and could also be collared, they could be bred, rather than just enslaved.  It wouldn't be a matter of "allowing" channelers to procreate, but of requiring it.

[Bodewhin]

3 hours ago, Andra said:

I don't believe that vision was showing the end of channelers.  It was showing the end of the AIEL.

Because the Aiel had started a war with the Seanchan that they couldn't win, which resulted in their extermination.

Even if the Seanchan had taken the White Tower, too much of their power structure was based on channeling to wipe it out.  And since now male channelers were safe and could also be collared, they could be bred, rather than just enslaved.  It wouldn't be a matter of "allowing" channelers to procreate, but of requiring it.

This was my understanding as well. And the whole point of Aviendha's visions were to give her an opportunity to fight the outcome so that the Aiel wouldn't be utterly destroyed in the future. I found it similar to the various lives Rand sees himself living with the portal stone in The Great Hunt. It's a future that "could be". 

 

Also as a side note, channeling isn't exclusively genic. Two channeler parents have a greater likelihood of producing channeler offspring but if it was highly common, then Egwene's sisters would have had the power, or Mat, since his sister winds up being able to. Adeleas and Vandene are an exception to the rule rather than the norm, as far as it's presented in the books.

 

The resurgence of male channelers seemed plausible to me. It's similar to most of the odd happenings and miracles surrounding the Dragon Reborn. One of the signs of leading to the last battle is how I took it. Also, plenty of men might have been dying out from the adverse effects of being able to channel, it's not like the Red Ajah were numerous enough to be spread out in their hunt.  

 

But to get back on topic, I believe Aviendha was given the visions so that she'd correct the oversight Rand made believing he was rewarding the Aiel. She has a life purpose to keep those visions from becoming a reality. WOT is very big on the theme of redemption, so it fits.

[Loose Theremin]

1 hour ago, Bodewhin said:

The resurgence of male channelers seemed plausible to me. It's similar to most of the odd happenings and miracles surrounding the Dragon Reborn. One of the signs of leading to the last battle is how I took it. Also, plenty of men might have been dying out from the adverse effects of being able to channel, it's not like the Red Ajah were numerous enough to be spread out in their hunt.  

 

 

 

So the reason for the sudden abundance of male channelers was ' The Wheel Weaves as the Wheel Wills ' ? A convenient explanation but not a very satisfying one. And that still wouldn't account for the long term steady decline in the number of female channelers.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

The taint and the reaction to it was tending to cull the inborn ability to channel from men - but men who could be taught were not effected by this, they simply never learn and have much the same chance to father children as any man with no channeling ability at all, so the availability of men who could learn appears reasonable.  Also the inborn talent in men typically manifests after they are capable of breeding.  Combining the relatively young age of marriage depicted in the wetlands many men with the power inborn would still have some children.  The commentary on the Ayyad in Sharra indicated that the male Ayyad were deliberately used for breeding before being killed to prevent them from going mad.

The speculation on culling in fact related to the point that few Aes Sedai ever marry or have children (in contrast to Aiel wise ones, who are able to inform Elayne about the issues with channeling while pregnant).  Novices would rarely (if ever) have been admitted if they had existing children and even the failed novices  and accepted who are expelled will have spent long years in an effectively cloistered order so few of these are likely to marry or have children (for example the Kin where it appears to be part of the rule to remain single to conceal the slow aging).  The steadily reducing numbers of women who can be taught and have the minimum strength to be allowed to test as Aes Sedai is speculated as being due to this effect.  The relatively high presence of prospects for training in an isolated population (such as the two rivers when Alanah and Verrin search there) from which few girls will have deliberately traveled to the tower to ask to be tested could be a result of this effect.  

Alternatively it was just "the wheel weaves as the wheel wills" as part of the destined character of the age and might spontaneously change for the new age.

[Andra]

11 hours ago, Loose Theremin said:

 

So the reason for the sudden abundance of male channelers was ' The Wheel Weaves as the Wheel Wills ' ? A convenient explanation but not a very satisfying one. And that still wouldn't account for the long term steady decline in the number of female channelers.

It's pretty clear that "the Pattern needs more channelers" is part of it - but only part.

Since the end of Breaking, the only known male channelers have been wilders.  The "sudden abundance" is a direct result of the first testing, recruitment and training program in three thousand years.

 

Also, it's pretty clear that the long-term steady decline of female channelers isn't actually real.

 

The White Tower had pretty much given up active recruiting, and as a rule rejected potential Novices who were too old - but who were only "too old" because the Tower had missed them when they were young enough.  When Egwene "opened the book," the Salidar Aes Sedai very quickly had more Novices than the Tower itself had seen at one time in generations.  Even without counting all the Two Rivers girls collected by Verin and Alanna.

Given the numbers of Wise Ones, Windfinders, Kin - and yes, even Damane - there's no real indication of this decline anywhere except within the Aes Sedai.  

It's just that because of their arrogance and ignorance, they had no clue just how many female channelers they had been missing for centuries.

Edited September 28 by Andra

[Loose Theremin]

18 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

The taint and the reaction to it was tending to cull the inborn ability to channel from men - but men who could be taught were not effected by this, they simply never learn and have much the same chance to father children as any man with no channeling ability at all, so the availability of men who could learn appears reasonable.  Also the inborn talent in men typically manifests after they are capable of breeding.  Combining the relatively young age of marriage depicted in the wetlands many men with the power inborn would still have some children.  The commentary on the Ayyad in Sharra indicated that the male Ayyad were deliberately used for breeding before being killed to prevent them from going mad.

The speculation on culling in fact related to the point that few Aes Sedai ever marry or have children (in contrast to Aiel wise ones, who are able to inform Elayne about the issues with channeling while pregnant).  Novices would rarely (if ever) have been admitted if they had existing children and even the failed novices  and accepted who are expelled will have spent long years in an effectively cloistered order so few of these are likely to marry or have children (for example the Kin where it appears to be part of the rule to remain single to conceal the slow aging).  The steadily reducing numbers of women who can be taught and have the minimum strength to be allowed to test as Aes Sedai is speculated as being due to this effect.  The relatively high presence of prospects for training in an isolated population (such as the two rivers when Alanah and Verrin search there) from which few girls will have deliberately traveled to the tower to ask to be tested could be a result of this effect.  

Alternatively it was just "the wheel weaves as the wheel wills" as part of the destined character of the age and might spontaneously change for the new age.

 

But if the men who ended up at the Black Tower were overwhelmingly men who hadn't touched the source but could be taught then how were they identified and recruited ? They wouldn't have come forward themselves because they would have had no idea they could channel.

 

The fact that the number of Aes Sedai had been steadily declining over a long period of time and that the White Tower had done nothing about it was a flaw in Robert Jordan's writing in my opinion. Surely a crucial part of the Aes Sedai's mission would be to prepare for the last Battle.

 

And they could hardly do that if they had been twiddling their thumbs while their numbers were being significantly reduced over time. If they couldn't find enough new recruits then they would have to breed them by having babies themselves. Although I could understand it if Robert Jordan might have been reluctant to turn the White Tower into a creche.

[Andra]

3 hours ago, Loose Theremin said:

 

But if the men who ended up at the Black Tower were overwhelmingly men who hadn't touched the source but could be taught then how were they identified and recruited ? They wouldn't have come forward themselves because they would have had no idea they could channel.

 

The fact that the number of Aes Sedai had been steadily declining over a long period of time and that the White Tower had done nothing about it was a flaw in Robert Jordan's writing in my opinion. Surely a crucial part of the Aes Sedai's mission would be to prepare for the last Battle.

 

And they could hardly do that if they had been twiddling their thumbs while their numbers were being significantly reduced over time. If they couldn't find enough new recruits then they would have to breed them by having babies themselves. Although I could understand it if Robert Jordan might have been reluctant to turn the White Tower into a creche.

Prior to Taim's "resonance," they WEREN'T identified and recruited.

Rand didn't know how to test potential male channelers.  He invited people to join him, but unless they had already started to channel on their own, they were just "twiddling their thumbs."

Also, Jordan's Aes Sedai were simply human.  Even a group that had explicit knowledge that the Last Battle would eventually come would have a hard time maintaining focus if they didn't know WHEN it would come. 

So even the least selfish or power-hungry of them spent their time following the goals of their respective Ajahs and trying to guide the world as best they could, while arguing with each other about how to go about that.  And they HOPED everything would gel in time to marshal the forces of the Light to fight that battle.

All Aes Sedai knew the Dragon would be reborn, but only a tiny few even believed he had to have free rein to lead.  Most thought he would need to be leashed to serve the Tower's purposes - or even eliminated.  Even the rebels in Salidar weren't all on board with letting him act independently.

 

If they couldn't even get that right, why would you expect them to do everything else correctly?

 

Remember, the Prophecies didn't tell them what they would need to do, or when they would need to do it.  And 3000 years is a loooong time to keep an organization primed to do something with that little information.  For a very long time, the White Tower has been mostly guessing.

 

Also, bear in mind that the Aes Sedai largely had no idea about the Wise Ones or the Windfinders.  They didn't have a clue just how many channelers there were outside the Tower, so they had no reason to believe that there would be anything to gain in looking for new recruits outside of those who made their own way to Tar Valon.

Should they have known better?  Possibly.  But they were only human.

And it's hard for a human to change their ways when they think they're the smartest person around.

 

[Asthereal]

On 9/27/2025 at 4:07 PM, Bentrudagi said:

In my latest re-read, I just got to where Aviendha walked through the columns in in Towers of Midnight seeing the possible future of the Aiel after the Last Battle. In the visions, we can infer that the Seanchan have taken the White Tower and are rounding up all of the channelers they can get their hands on, men and women. 

Assuming, that they do not allow Damane to pro create, will their actions lead to culling the ability to channel leading the world back to an Age where channeling is forgotten? 

Thoughts?

Thanks

 

It is implied that the First Age is our time, more or less. Which means that the Second Age (Age of Legends) probably started when Channeling was discovered. So yeah, there have been ages without channeling.

 

In order for the seven Ages to make sense and fit into our time, or something close to it, we would actually need at least one of the Ages to be really long - think in terms of millions of years. We would also need an Age without humans, or at least with very very few humans. If we don't have these two things, we'd see traces of the previous turning of the Wheel everywhere, but we don't.

 

It's not clear to me that the Seanchan actively cause channeling to go extinct during the Fourth Age, but it's not a crazy theory. Though I would like to point out that the futures our heroes see in Rhuidean are possible futures. They're not set in stone. To quote a different franchise: "Always in motion, the future is."

 

It's clear to me that channeling will disappear at some point, but when exactly, and how, we can theorize on. 🙂 

Edited October 9 by Asthereal

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

It is never directly stated that the ages follow identical paths of growth and destruction.  Indeed Thom's reference to "Merk and Mosk fighting with spears of fire" and other oblique references to events up to the 70's in the opening chapters suggests that the 20th century in the world of the wheel was an "age of legends" based on technology rather than the one power, and the cataclysm which ended it would have been a nuclear war rather than the release of the dark one.  The cycle of ages could occur following a pattern of similar themes rather than near identical events, with the one power merely being the most recent foundation for an age of legends and succeeded by the most fundamental cataclysm.

[Sabio]

Since certain things need to happen like last battle, DO prison being opened, people forget DO exists etc.  But nothing saying the same thing has to cause it, As @bringbackthomsmoustachestates it doesn't have to be identical events.  Maybe the Seanchan cull the ability by capturing too many women who channel, imean they capture the women and men who will channel regardless.  If all they leave are the people who need to be taught, then would stand to reason in time channeling would be rare.  Or maybe it's a sickness etc.  

 

So many men are suddenly about becuase before no one was crazy enough to go about testing to find men who had the ability to channel.  As described in the books Taim would basically go town to town and gather up anyone who even showed an interest in his offer.