I think I’ve identified the point at which I began actively disliking the Super Girlz

[WoTwasThat]

Don’t get me wrong, I actually kind of like Nynaeve’s character… mostly. But Elayne just sucks so bad, and Egwene gets worse and worse. And especially putting them all together… GAH!

 

Anyway, during my re-read I think I’ve now identified the point at which my feelings for the Super Girlz shifted from annoyance to outright dislike.

 

It’s the point in Lord of Chaos where Rand dispatches Mat and his Band to Salidar to escort Elayne to Caemlyn to effectively quash two budding civil wars by assuming the thrones of Andor and Caihien, which would have saved countless lives and allowed the Dragon Reborn to focus his attention and resources elsewhere, and instead the Super Girlz be like “Nah. Elayne needs to go to Ebou Dar - even though there’s nothing that makes Elayne particularly necessary to that mission, and we’ll send Mat with her mainly so we can hijack his army for our “siege” on the Tar Valon.”

 

Maybe this is why I feel like Crown of Swords was such a drop off from the first six books. Chapter after chapter about Ebou freaking Dar.

[Bodewhin]

Every reader is entitled to their own opinion, but I'd have to agree to disagree. 

 

I really like Elayne. I liked her from her first introduction. She and Nynaeve are two of my favorite characters in the series on the whole. Are they annoying sometimes? Do they lack foresight? Do they make mistakes? Yes, to all. Their flaws and strengths are what make them compelling. 

 

Ebou Dar plot can be summed up by the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills. Frankly the pattern is controlling events to happen the way they are meant to, so I think it's unrealistic to say "this would've saved countless lives" because there is zero assurance any actions would actually work out that way. Rand trying to fix things throughout the series backfires more often than not, so I don't feel it's a simple fix or rests on the shoulders of a particular character. 

 

You can't stand Elayne. I like her a lot. Liking or disliking a character or plot point isn't a universal one-size fits all thing. 

[Mailman]

4 hours ago, WoTwasThat said:

Don’t get me wrong, I actually kind of like Nynaeve’s character… mostly. But Elayne just sucks so bad, and Egwene gets worse and worse. And especially putting them all together… GAH!

 

Anyway, during my re-read I think I’ve now identified the point at which my feelings for the Super Girlz shifted from annoyance to outright dislike.

 

It’s the point in Lord of Chaos where Rand dispatches Mat and his Band to Salidar to escort Elayne to Caemlyn to effectively quash two budding civil wars by assuming the thrones of Andor and Caihien, which would have saved countless lives and allowed the Dragon Reborn to focus his attention and resources elsewhere, and instead the Super Girlz be like “Nah. Elayne needs to go to Ebou Dar - even though there’s nothing that makes Elayne particularly necessary to that mission, and we’ll send Mat with her mainly so we can hijack his army for our “siege” on the Tar Valon.”

 

Maybe this is why I feel like Crown of Swords was such a drop off from the first six books. Chapter after chapter about Ebou freaking Dar.

I also disagree.

 

You could rewrite that section but it would require removing the Gholam and the hallway battle with Matt protecting Elayne is one of my absolute favourites in the entire series, I almost always read that section a few times on my rereads.

 

Elayne also had legitimate reasons for going to find the bowl. Elayne was the expert on Ter'angreal and only she and Nynaeve had actually seen the room and location of the bowl.

 

While Elayne claiming the thrones would have been important does it outweigh stopping the endless summer that was crushing the world.

 

Elayne could also not use the Band to reclaim the Andoran throne. It would have been the equivalent of using the Aiel in the minds of many.

[Tenobia si bashere kazadi]

I actually like Elayne or Nynaeve but I think I started disliking Egwene when she  began to argue with Nynaeve about lying after all the lying she was doing to the Wise Ones in Fires of Heaven

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Yeah that felt a bit odd. It was like Jordan was wanting to show her becoming her own woman, but did so by bullying Nynaeve and then instead of graciously admitting her own faults she kept a rather deceptive superiority over her, turning the tables rather than finding equality. 

 

Egwene's mix of being a goody two-shoes and completely single-minded in her own advancement (while having good motivations generally) always seemed an odd mix to me. 

 

But I suppose it does make her interesting and not two-dimensional. 

[Bodewhin]

18 hours ago, Mailman said:

.... the hallway battle with Matt protecting Elayne is one of my absolute favourites in the entire series, I almost always read that section a few times on my rereads.

I thought that scene was fantastic. I enjoy a lot of Mat and Elayne's scenes tbh. They usually make for some great moments, comic and unexpectedly heartwarming. 

 

While some of the time in Ebou Dar was slow for me during my first read, the actual climax of The Bowl of the Winds I found interesting, and worth some of the slower bits it took to get there. 

 

I agree with you on the importance of Elayne's mission vs taking the throne. The horrible unrelenting drought and endless summer was definitely a bigger deal than political unrest and technically, more dangerous to the world at large. 

[WoTwasThat]

The mission was necessary. Elayne was not. Nyn and Elayne both knew as much as the other about the Bowl’s location. Egwene sending them both when only one was necessary, and Elayne was needed elsewhere, was dumb.

[Bodewhin]

8 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Egwene's mix of being a goody two-shoes and completely single-minded in her own advancement (while having good motivations generally) always seemed an odd mix to me. 

 

But I suppose it does make her interesting and not two-dimensional. 

This was my take as well. I also found it odd but it kinda worked and kept her from being too perfect, so I'll give it that.

 

@WoTwasThat You're saying it's dumb which is fine, but that's just your opinion. My opinion is that Elayne was required for the mission. As @Mailmanpointed out, Elayne was the Ter'angreal expert so the idea that Nynaeve could've gone alone doesn't add up to me. I think maybe you're also forgetting that Elayne has a stake in wanting to locate the bowl because of the bargain with the Seafolk. The political ramifications of dealing with the Seafolk worked in her favor for her future taking of the Andorn throne. 

 

There's also the whole Elayne not looking like the puppet of the Dragon Reborn. Had she done what Rand wanted, it basically was going to look like he put her on the throne (because that's exactly what he was doing), which was something she fought against. I mean, in my opinion it makes sense. Like her or hate her, Elayne was raised as the Daughter Heir, her grasp of politics was a lot stronger than Rand who grew up as a shepherd (Dragon Reborn or not). 

 

[chiamac]

Just to add to the discussion. 

I don't mind them that much, and generally I default to taking the position that its the way RJ wanted to tell or evolve his story. 

That said, I think Egwene and Nynaeve would work better in a short story, like the 3 books planned, than they do in what this all turned into. I get the "old blood" but do we really need 5 main characters from the Two Rivers area? It just seems much, and I'd have rather them fell into more of a Harry Potter style of friendship or band with them all meeting at the White Tower. Thankfully RJ seemed to drop some plans with the other girls from there that came way later, they were seeming to be being propped up for something. 

I can live with what seems to be the later superpowers of them rediscovering things and stuff. I mean Rand is doing what he is, so it makes sense there are others in this time that can achieve great things. 
 

[Mailman]

9 hours ago, Bodewhin said:

This was my take as well. I also found it odd but it kinda worked and kept her from being too perfect, so I'll give it that.

 

@WoTwasThat You're saying it's dumb which is fine, but that's just your opinion. My opinion is that Elayne was required for the mission. As @Mailmanpointed out, Elayne was the Ter'angreal expert so the idea that Nynaeve could've gone alone doesn't add up to me. I think maybe you're also forgetting that Elayne has a stake in wanting to locate the bowl because of the bargain with the Seafolk. The political ramifications of dealing with the Seafolk worked in her favor for her future taking of the Andorn throne. 

 

There's also the whole Elayne not looking like the puppet of the Dragon Reborn. Had she done what Rand wanted, it basically was going to look like he put her on the throne (because that's exactly what he was doing), which was something she fought against. I mean, in my opinion it makes sense. Like her or hate her, Elayne was raised as the Daughter Heir, her grasp of politics was a lot stronger than Rand who grew up as a shepherd (Dragon Reborn or not). 

 

In fairness I believe the bowl deal only occurred after they had already arrived, so it is moot by this point.

[Bodewhin]

6 hours ago, Mailman said:

In fairness I believe the bowl deal only occurred after they had already arrived, so it is moot by this point.

But they met the Seafolk before that in The Shadow Rising right? Also, they needed the Windfinders to use the bowl if I'm remembering correctly? (I haven't gotten that far in my current reread so I could be misremembering).

 

To clarify, I wasn't saying they went to Ebou Dar to make the bargain with the Seafolk, but that making the bargain worked in favor of Elayne's bid for the Lion Throne later on. Whereas with Rand planning to hand over the crown to Elayne it would've ultimately been a ruler he appointed rather than Elayne taking the throne on her own merit. And that could have had political consequences in the long run.

Edited September 17 by Bodewhin
mobile error

[WoTwasThat]

20 hours ago, Bodewhin said:

This was my take as well. I also found it odd but it kinda worked and kept her from being too perfect, so I'll give it that.

 

@WoTwasThat You're saying it's dumb which is fine, but that's just your opinion. My opinion is that Elayne was required for the mission. As @Mailmanpointed out, Elayne was the Ter'angreal expert so the idea that Nynaeve could've gone alone doesn't add up to me. I think maybe you're also forgetting that Elayne has a stake in wanting to locate the bowl because of the bargain with the Seafolk. The political ramifications of dealing with the Seafolk worked in her favor for her future taking of the Andorn throne. 

 

There's also the whole Elayne not looking like the puppet of the Dragon Reborn. Had she done what Rand wanted, it basically was going to look like he put her on the throne (because that's exactly what he was doing), which was something she fought against. I mean, in my opinion it makes sense. Like her or hate her, Elayne was raised as the Daughter Heir, her grasp of politics was a lot stronger than Rand who grew up as a shepherd (Dragon Reborn or not). 

 

How… did Elayne being a… “ter’angreal expert” make… any difference whatsoever? They needed an expert on making a ter’angreal to find one? Face it, Egwene sent Elayne to Ebou Dar because it’s what Elayne wanted. Leaving Andor and Cairhien on the brink of civil war. Which is horrifically selfish and irresponsible when you think about it. Which… perfectly fits Elayne when you think about it. 

Edited September 18 by WoTwasThat

[Mailman]

7 hours ago, Bodewhin said:

But they met the Seafolk before that in The Shadow Rising right? Also, they needed the Windfinders to use the bowl if I'm remembering correctly? (I haven't gotten that far in my current reread so I could be misremembering).

 

To clarify, I wasn't saying they went to Ebou Dar to make the bargain with the Seafolk, but that making the bargain worked in favor of Elayne's bid for the Lion Throne later on. Whereas with Rand planning to hand over the crown to Elayne it would've ultimately been a ruler he appointed rather than Elayne taking the throne on her own merit. And that could have had political consequences in the long run.

They met Sea Folk in the shadow rising, however it was a different crew than they met in Altara and the Wavemistress if I remember was furious and demanded to know who had told them of the weaving of the winds.

 

The point I was trying to make is that the bargain was only made after they arrived to search for the bowl so using it as a reason for Elayne to go there is not valid. I fully agree that the bargain later helped and played a role in Elaynes rise.

[Mailman]

1 hour ago, WoTwasThat said:

How… did Elayne being a… “ter’angreal expert” make… any difference whatsoever? They needed an expert on making a ter’angreal to find one? Face it, Egwene sent Elayne to Ebou Dar because it’s what Elayne wanted. Leaving Andor and Cairhien on the brink of civil war. Which is horrifically selfish and irresponsible when you think about it. Which… perfectly fits Elayne when you think about it. 

Having the most talented person with Ter'angreal present when searching for that item is a valid reason.

 

Which was more important ending the endless summer that was crushing the world or gaining control of 2 kingdoms? I am falling on the side of ending the summer.

 

Could Elayne have used the Band to reclaim Andor. Problematic considering Mats association with Rand and I am not sure the Bands size would have been sufficient to the job at the time. From the way it seemed using outside forces would have massively turned needed houses against Elaynes bid especially one so strongly attached to Rand.

 

You have to remember as well that Elayne was only one of two people who had seen the location and it was not like they had a postal address to use, hell they even debated between the 2 of them how many stories the building had.

 

Could it have been done differently, yes, but to claim it as the insane mistake you have is going too far.

[WoTwasThat]

3 hours ago, Mailman said:

Having the most talented person with Ter'angreal present when searching for that item is a valid reason.

Again… why? What does one thing have to do with the other?

 

This isn’t a matter of whether the Bowl was important. That’s a red herring. It’s whether Elayne was important to finding it. 

 

As you acknowledge, Nynaeve knew as much about the location as Elayne. Egwene could have sent other support with Nynaeve. Keeping Rand burdened with Andor and Cairhien so Elayne could take this unnecessary side quest was dumb.

[Mailman]

3 hours ago, WoTwasThat said:

Again… why? What does one thing have to do with the other?

 

This isn’t a matter of whether the Bowl was important. That’s a red herring. It’s whether Elayne was important to finding it. 

 

As you acknowledge, Nynaeve knew as much about the location as Elayne. Egwene could have sent other support with Nynaeve. Keeping Rand burdened with Andor and Cairhien so Elayne could take this unnecessary side quest was dumb.

I feel having the most skilled Ter'angreal user known to the Aes Sedai in place to deal with a Ter'Angreal that was vital to the survival of the world is fairly self-explanatory.

 

Having only 1 person to search an entire city is a daunting prospect having 2 makes it half that.

[WoTwasThat]

17 hours ago, Mailman said:

I feel having the most skilled Ter'angreal user known to the Aes Sedai in place to deal with a Ter'Angreal that was vital to the survival of the world is fairly self-explanatory.

 

Having only 1 person to search an entire city is a daunting prospect having 2 makes it half that.

As I said, “Egwene could have sent other support with Nynaeve.” And we’re just gonna have to agree to disagree that Elayne rediscovering how to make T’A had anything to do with finding one. You can’t explain it, which is why you say it’s self-explanatory. 

[Mailman]

43 minutes ago, WoTwasThat said:

As I said, “Egwene could have sent other support with Nynaeve.” And we’re just gonna have to agree to disagree that Elayne rediscovering how to make T’A had anything to do with finding one. You can’t explain it, which is why you say it’s self-explanatory. 

No I say it because having the person with the greatest talent with Ter'Angreal known to the Aes Sedai handling a Ter'Angreal that is crucial to averting an apocalypse level event is a valid reason for her to go.

 

The other support she could have sent would not have had the first hand advantage of having seen the location and thus would have been far less useful.

 

I notice you have failed to address any of the concerns I stated about the band actually being of assistance to Elayne in retaking the throne because you could not explain it. You have also failed to address the fact that the endless summer was the greater threat out of the 2.

 

[WoTwasThat]

9 hours ago, Mailman said:

No I say it because having the person with the greatest talent with Ter'Angreal known to the Aes Sedai handling a Ter'Angreal that is crucial to averting an apocalypse level event is a valid reason for her to go.

 

The other support she could have sent would not have had the first hand advantage of having seen the location and thus would have been far less useful.

 

I notice you have failed to address any of the concerns I stated about the band actually being of assistance to Elayne in retaking the throne because you could not explain it. You have also failed to address the fact that the endless summer was the greater threat out of the 2.

 

You’re not reading so good. I already said above that the importance of the bowl is undisputed but is a red herring. It is not the importance that matters - but whether Elayne was necessary to find it.

 

Next, you’ve switched tactics. First you said Elayne’s rediscovery of making T’A was useful to finding a T’A. A proposition for which there is zero support and for which you can only say is “self-explanatory.” Now you’ve switched to Elayne was in best position to know how to use it. Also zero support for this. In fact, Elayne didn’t know how to use the darned thing and had to get help from the Sea Folk, remember?

 

Finally, you argue that Mat’s Band wouldn’t have been helpful to retaking Andor and Cairhien - another red herring. The only point was to get her safely back to Andor ASAP. 
 

Let’s apply some simple logic: Elayne was uniquely situated to claim the thrones of Andor and Cairhien. She was not uniquely situated to find the Bowl. Eg could have sent any number of AS with Nyn to find the Bowl. But Elayne wanted to go after the Bowl instead of doing the one job that only she could do. 

Edited September 19 by WoTwasThat

[Mailman]

12 hours ago, WoTwasThat said:

You’re not reading so good. I already said above that the importance of the bowl is undisputed but is a red herring. It is not the importance that matters - but whether Elayne was necessary to find it.

 

Next, you’ve switched tactics. First you said Elayne’s rediscovery of making T’A was useful to finding a T’A. A proposition for which there is zero support and for which you can only say is “self-explanatory.” Now you’ve switched to Elayne was in best position to know how to use it. Also zero support for this. In fact, Elayne didn’t know how to use the darned thing and had to get help from the Sea Folk, remember?

 

Finally, you argue that Mat’s Band wouldn’t have been helpful to retaking Andor and Cairhien - another red herring. The only point was to get her safely back to Andor ASAP. 
 

Let’s apply some simple logic: Elayne was uniquely situated to claim the thrones of Andor and Cairhien. She was not uniquely situated to find the Bowl. Eg could have sent any number of AS with Nyn to find the Bowl. But Elayne wanted to go after the Bowl instead of doing the one job that only she could do. 

No it is you who is not reading so good. You can argue the benefits of either approach but claiming things are red herrings is just silly. Elayne herself actually says that finding the bowl is more important than claiming the throne.

 

Facts

Without a doubt the most gifted person with Ter'Angreal that the Aes Sedai had was Elayne. She had already established that it was a device for controlling the weather.

 

Only 2 people on the planet had seen the location of the Ter'Angreal and Elayne was one of them making her uniquely helpful in finding its location, a 2nd hand description is far less useful than her firsthand sighting. The fact that this ended up not being a factor is irrelevant.

 

The band is actually entirely irrelevant to Elayne going to Andor as she could have travelled there at any point via gateway or even gone with the delegation sent by the rebels before they got to travel. I also believe that the rebel hall was against letting Elayne out of their control and go to Rand who was based in Camelyn at this point. 

 

The fact that she was unable to use the bowl is entirely irrelevant as the qualifying factor is who had the best chance among the Aes Sedai and again that is unarguably Elayne.

[Loose Theremin]

On my first read of WoT Nynaeve used to annoy the hell out of me. I liked Elayne a lot at first but I was disappointed with what Robert Jordan did with her in the later books. Egwene I was neutral about. She had both her good and bad points in about equal measure.

 

On re-reads I grew to like Nynaeve more and more when I realised that she was supposed to be funny. Which she is when you start looking at her that way. It took me a while to clue into Robert Jordan's sense of humour but when I did a lot of the books became even more enjoyable.

 

I began to wonder if that was what he was going for with Elayne after she became pregnant. Elayne with baby-brain making all of those stupid decisions. It seems like the sort of thing RJ might have done.

 

[Mailman]

I disliked Nynaeve the most out of the group and it mostly falls back to her using a switch or stick to hit people she argued with and it flows through to Cadsuane in the same way of her use of physical punishments simply for arguing with her.

 

I very much enjoyed Tam standing up to Cadsuane after his meeting with Rand.

[Loose Theremin]

2 hours ago, Mailman said:

I disliked Nynaeve the most out of the group and it mostly falls back to her using a switch or stick to hit people she argued with and it flows through to Cadsuane in the same way of her use of physical punishments simply for arguing with her.

 

I very much enjoyed Tam standing up to Cadsuane after his meeting with Rand.

 

I sometimes find myself thinking of a spoof Wheel of Time TV show where the Aes Sedai are literally on wheels, which are covered by their long dresses. So that when they move they appear to "glide along". But as nothing is perfect in Robert Jordan's WoT the wheels will squeak.

 

And that all of the table and chair legs in Randland are uneven and wonky so that people are in danger of being pitched out of the chairs. And that ALL of the crockery is unmatching and chipped.

 

And most of the beggars have heron marked walking staves.

 

And the street urchins proclaim loudly that whatever food they have just gotten from a street vendor is the best they have tasted for a thousand years !

 

And every time Rand meets someone, anyone, they slap his face as hard as they can ! And if he is meeting a group of people they form an orderly queue and wait their turn.

Edited September 21 by Loose Theremin

[WoTwasThat]

On 9/19/2025 at 8:49 PM, Mailman said:

No it is you who is not reading so good. You can argue the benefits of either approach but claiming things are red herrings is just silly. Elayne herself actually says that finding the bowl is more important than claiming the throne.

LOL you’re still doing it! I wonder if maybe there is a language barrier causing this confusion. As I have said so many times, the relative importance of the Bowl versus Andor is irrelevant. Conceded: the Bowl was more important. Not the issue. Red herring argument.

 

The question is whether Elayne was in any way necessary to find the Bowl. And best you can muster is that she was a second set of eyes that saw the building in TAR - as if Nynaeve’s eyes weren’t enough.

 

That doesn’t seem like a very good reason to leave Rand tied down in Andor and Cairhien, but you go ahead and believe what you want.

 

Finally, your “Elayne was uniquely qualified to find the T’A” and “Elayne was uniquely qualified to use the T’A” arguments are completely unsupported and, in fact, disproved by the books.

[WoTwasThat]

On 9/20/2025 at 6:17 AM, Loose Theremin said:

On my first read of WoT Nynaeve used to annoy the hell out of me. I liked Elayne a lot at first but I was disappointed with what Robert Jordan did with her in the later books. Egwene I was neutral about. She had both her good and bad points in about equal measure.

 

On re-reads I grew to like Nynaeve more and more when I realised that she was supposed to be funny. Which she is when you start looking at her that way. It took me a while to clue into Robert Jordan's sense of humour but when I did a lot of the books became even more enjoyable.

 

I began to wonder if that was what he was going for with Elayne after she became pregnant. Elayne with baby-brain making all of those stupid decisions. It seems like the sort of thing RJ might have done.

 

Agree that Nynaeve is growing on me during my re-read, at least up through Crown of Thorns so far. She’s pretty funny.

 

I think you’re being a little charitable about Jordon’s treatment of Elayne LOL. God she is just an insufferable personality, her “love story” is beyond contrived, and her storylines are tedious.