S3E8 - He Who Comes With The Dawn

[Jaccsen]

  On 5/19/2025 at 5:44 PM, Elder_Haman said:

You've read very selectively then. The consensus among nearly everyone is there was obvious and consistent improvement season over season. Whether that was 'good enough' is a matter of taste, obviously.

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Inconsistent writing, the death of Loial and Siuan, introduction of the writers own characters and plotlines versus the source material. These are the reasons I quit and they remain in full force.

 

It does not matter if the quality improved when the very elements that caused me to dislike the show remain.

 

I was ready to accept changes for the TV format but WoT TV is not just changes to fit it into a TV format. It is a wholesale re-interpretation.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 5/19/2025 at 8:00 PM, Jaccsen said:

It does not matter if the quality improved

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That was the only point I was arguing. I’m glad you and I agree that the quality improved. 
We can agree to disagree on the rest. Although, I would say “the (apparent) death of Loial”. Like it or hate it, if we don’t see a corpse, we can’t be sure a character is dead.

[Kaleb]

  On 5/19/2025 at 8:00 PM, Jaccsen said:

I was ready to accept changes for the TV format

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After three seasons of this argument, I still don't think people who say this understand how drastic the rewrite has to be to fit the story into 8 seasons. Based on page count alone, 8 seasons of 8 60-minute episode scripts is equal to about 25% of the page count of the books. A full 75% of the story has to be cut, and as much as we all joke about the slog and this or that tedious descriptive obsession of Robert Jordan, that's absolutely massive and lots of favorite characters and scenes are going to be cut. And you can't just cut, you have to create new material to bridge the subplots that had to be cut, as well as to make the themes coherent. There's no way to do this without serious re-interpretation, which invariably leads to the argument over what makes an adaptation vs a fanfic vs a new story with existing names, etc. I'm not interested in that debate, as to me the show clearly displays a deep understanding of and love for the story in the books, despite all the changes they have to and choose to make.

 

In a different thread (many different threads) people have made the point that they feel the show is elevating certain themes and characters instead of others, and that is of course true. A different showrunner could have made a TV show that was more of a gritty apocalyptic battle story. Another team could have given a very conservative reading emphasizing that the traditional values most people read into the early Emond's Field chapters are in fact the key to overcoming corruption and discord. Those would be valid and different choices, and I feel like those are the two that most of the complaints about Judkin's more cosmopolitan interpretation are coming from. There are many other options, The Wheel Of Time is an extremely rich work of fantasy created by an author who had a true gift for writing in vastly different philosophical perspectives without mocking any of them.

[Mailman]

  On 5/19/2025 at 8:10 PM, Elder_Haman said:

That was the only point I was arguing. I’m glad you and I agree that the quality improved. 
We can agree to disagree on the rest. Although, I would say “the (apparent) death of Loial”. Like it or hate it, if we don’t see a corpse, we can’t be sure a character is dead.

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No one's ever really gone.

 

Highly likely Loial if he is dead gets a return with the horn and maybe Siuan as well.

[fearbrog]

  On 5/19/2025 at 8:48 PM, Kaleb said:

And you can't just cut, you have to create new material to bridge the subplots that had to be cut, as well as to make the themes coherent

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Which book theme was made coherent by making Egwene triumph over a-dam all by herself? I guess it's: "You can do all by yourself if you try hard enough". 

 

  On 5/19/2025 at 8:48 PM, Kaleb said:

the show clearly displays a deep understanding of and love for the story in the books

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Enough love to make sisters into lovers

Edited May 20 by fearbrog

[Kaleb]

  On 5/20/2025 at 5:46 AM, fearbrog said:

Which book theme was made coherent by making Egwene triumph over a-dam all by herself? I guess it's: "You can do all by yourself if you try hard enough". 

 

Enough love to make sisters into lovers

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re: the a'dam -- It's broadly consistent with the books in that intention, need, and belief are crucial to the effects of OP and ter'angreal use. Egwene learned how to hold the belief that putting the collar on Renna did not harm her, long enough to do it. This was clearly set up with the water pitcher, and I can't think of a point in the books where this approach is ever tested or directly contradicted. 

 

re: Aviendha and Elayne -- Lots of long-time readers read that relationship in the books as romantic. Many others do not. Like I said in my comment above, it's a valid choice to make that a romantic relationship, and it would be equally valid to portray them as strictly platonic. 

[Glasfeu]

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In a different thread (many different threads) people have made the point that they feel the show is elevating certain themes and characters instead of others, and that is of course true. A different showrunner could have made a TV show that was more of a gritty apocalyptic battle story. Another team could have given a very conservative reading emphasizing that the traditional values most people read into the early Emond's Field chapters are in fact the key to overcoming corruption and discord. Those would be valid and different choices, and I feel like those are the two that most of the complaints about Judkin's more cosmopolitan interpretation are coming from. There are many other options, The Wheel Of Time is an extremely rich work of fantasy created by an author who had a true gift for writing in vastly different philosophical perspectives without mocking any of them.

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Sure, you're right. The scenarist can have different visions about this show, and all of them are valid. I agree with you on that point. Yet, some of them will naturally upset book readers more than others, and that, too, is perfectly normal.

 

To give an extreme example, let's imagine Amazon focuses much of season 4 on vegetable cultivation. Is that valid? Sure it is. Is that okay for book reader to be angry with that choice. I believe it is...

 

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I'm not interested in that debate, as to me the show clearly displays a deep understanding of and love for the story in the books, despite all the changes they have to and choose to make.

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I have to disagree here. From my point of view, their love for the book is very... partial. Or, to say it differently, there are some parts that they obviously love a lot, while some others don't seem to interest them. It's not a bad thing; after all, we are all a little like this, but Amazon scenarist seems to me a little... extreme on some specific points.

 

Early in Season 1, when the show was still diffusing, I remember someone saying that they shouldn't have tried to adapt the books but rather should have made a spin-off focusing on the Aes Sedai and the White Tower. I agree with this. And I'm not saying this as an insult; I genuinely think they would have done a very good job.

 

Unfortunately, from what I have seen, they aren't that interested in telling Rand al Thor's story, as the Dragon Reborn story, or Math and Perrin's story for what it's worth. No, it's not completely true. It's more like telling their story is a low priority for them.

 

Is the show bad because of this? Not necessarily, but it's understandable that many readers have some problem with that choice.

 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 5/20/2025 at 3:11 PM, Glasfeu said:

Unfortunately, from what I have seen, they aren't that interested in telling Rand al Thor's story, as the Dragon Reborn story, or Math and Perrin's story for what it's worth. No, it's not completely true. It's more like telling their story is a low priority for them.

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I think this is pretty unfair to the last two seasons. 
 

In the first season, they made the extremely dubious choice to make the identity of the Dragon a mystery. The problems with that decision were then compounded by COVID and the actor leaving in the middle of filming. 
 

Since that point, they have absolutely been interested in telling Rand and Perrin’s stories. I think the decision to write mostly from the perspective of the people around Rand is smart (if the series continues) because the question of whether Rand will choose the Light or the Dark is the most compelling question in the series and the most obvious source of dramatic tension for later seasons. 
 

As for Perrin, they hardly ignored him. He had a full arc this season (granted, it was diluted by the Alanna/Maksim stuff which I don’t like, but I get why they’re doing it). They’ve slow rolled Perrin’s wolf abilities - but I think this is mostly a function of time constraints. 
 

And at least it my mind, they’ve started to do Mat correctly this last season.
 

Yes, there has been a focus on the Tower politics. But the Tower is significant both to the story and to the storytelling. Without it, it becomes very difficult to do much in the way of showing the One Power in a way that isn’t all exposition.

 

The choices make sense, even if you don’t like the product. 

[Glasfeu]

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Since that point, they have absolutely been interested in telling Rand and Perrin’s stories. I think the decision to write mostly from the perspective of the people around Rand is smart (if the series continues) because the question of whether Rand will choose the Light or the Dark is the most compelling question in the series and the most obvious source of dramatic tension for later seasons. 

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I probably should have specified that I'm still watching season 3, and so I'm reserving my judgment on this one. Still, even if it's doing better, the problem is still present in season 1 and 2, which, in my opinion, has a strong impact on the overall show.

 

Let's take Perrin. In season 2, we have the scene when he finally kills a White Cloak after watching  Hopper die. Two problems: The relationship with the wolf is completely rushed, which leaves absolutely no impact and makes Perrin's reaction very exaggerated. Second problem, the screen time that could have been used to flesh out Perrin's power and his relationship with the wolf were used on other stuff. Season 2 writing is far better than Season 1, so it was good stuff, like Moiraine arc with her family, or the focus on Nynaeve trials, doesn't change the fact that, for me, the scenarist clearly put a low priority on Perrin story.

 

Rand is a little different. Yes, after season 1, they understood that they had to focus some screen time on his character. Yet, a lot of his relationships or accomplishments seem to be absent. And I'm not saying this as a fan of the book who wanted to see the scenes exactly as they were in the original material. My complaint is that most elements that were disappearing were replaced by nothing.

 

For example, no relationship between Lan and Rand in season 2 ? Okay, I'm sure we will have something else replacing it. Hey, there's Logain, surely we will see a nice teacher/ student connection between the two of them and... nope, nothing.

 

And from what I have read concerning season 3 final here, the problem is still the same. No arc showing Rand making a trap to have Asmodean as a teacher? Fine, surely, they will replace this by something else in season 3 and... nope. They did focus the final between him and Couladin, but from what a lot of people are saying, Couladin's threat are complelty under develloped in this season. Priority, priority.

 

(Again, I'm still watching season 3, so maybe I'm unfair here, let's just say that my judgement on this last point is still suspended. It's just.... it seems very coherent with previous probem I have seen in season 1 and 2... )

 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 5/20/2025 at 4:19 PM, Glasfeu said:

 

I probably should have specified that I'm still watching season 3, and so I'm reserving my judgment on this one. Still, even if it's doing better, the problem is still present in season 1 and 2, which, in my opinion, has a strong impact on the overall show.

 

Let's take Perrin. In season 2, we have the scene when he finally kills a White Cloak after watching  Hopper die. Two problems: The relationship with the wolf is completely rushed, which leaves absolutely no impact and makes Perrin's reaction very exaggerated. Second problem, the screen time that could have been used to flesh out Perrin's power and his relationship with the wolf were used on other stuff. Season 2 writing is far better than Season 1, so it was good stuff, like Moiraine arc with her family, or the focus on Nynaeve trials, doesn't change the fact that, for me, the scenarist clearly put a low priority on Perrin story.

 

Rand is a little different. Yes, after season 1, they understood that they had to focus some screen time on his character. Yet, a lot of his relationships or accomplishments seem to be absent. And I'm not saying this as a fan of the book who wanted to see the scenes exactly as they were in the original material. My complaint is that most elements that were disappearing were replaced by nothing.

 

For example, no relationship between Lan and Rand in season 2 ? Okay, I'm sure we will have something else replacing it. Hey, there's Logain, surely we will see a nice teacher/ student connection between the two of them and... nope, nothing.

 

And from what I have read concerning season 3 final here, the problem is still the same. No arc showing Rand making a trap to have Asmodean as a teacher? Fine, surely, they will replace this by something else in season 3 and... nope. They did focus the final between him and Couladin, but from what a lot of people are saying, Couladin's threat are complelty under develloped in this season. Priority, priority.

 

(Again, I'm still watching season 3, so maybe I'm unfair here, let's just say that my judgement on this last point is still suspended. It's just.... it seems very coherent with previous probem I have seen in season 1 and 2... )

 

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I don't think any of your points are inherently invalid. In fact, I tend to agree. The problem is that we can't really know whether these things will pay off (or be remedied down the line) unless we get more content. 

 

I think that presents a pretty substantial problem in the overall production of the show. You have to rush some elements for world building purposes, but if you rush too much the whole thing collapses under the weight of too much world building and not enough story. On the other hand, if you try to slow roll your world building (the Wolf Dream is a good example), you run the risk of never getting to it at all because the show is cancelled. 

 

It feels to me in general that the writers know how to pay off something they've set up, teased, or foreshadowed. So I feel like some of these things you see as holes have been teed up for further development. Problem is that they are really unsatisfying unless there's a further opportunity to pay them off.

[Kaleb]

  On 5/20/2025 at 4:19 PM, Glasfeu said:

My complaint is that most elements that were disappearing were replaced by nothing.

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It's a totally natural response when watching an adaptation of a story you know, so sit with that and have that reaction. Then watch the show again so you can pay closer attention to what's actually there. When your focus is on deviations from what you expect to be there, then you miss the story they are actually telling, which is unavoidably different from the books. Yet I find it so obviously to be the same story. People have used the analogy of a gleeman in common tongue versus a court bard in High Chant, and that's perfectly fine. Every telling is different, as the first chapter of every book in the series reminds us.

Edited May 20 by Kaleb

[fearbrog]

  On 5/20/2025 at 1:49 PM, Kaleb said:

It's broadly consistent with the books in that intention, need, and belief are crucial to the effects of OP and ter'angreal use. Egwene learned how to hold the belief that putting the collar on Renna did not harm her, long enough to do it. This was clearly set up with the  water pitcher, and I can't think of a point in the books where this approach is ever tested or directly contradicted

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You yourself said show made themes coherent. So which theme series shows by letting Egwene do unparalleled feat rivalrd to Dark One(second time in two seasons)? Am I right that scene proves what heroes capable to do anything by themselves and don't need any help? Surely that theme consistent with taking away Rand's solo battle with Ishi and making hem be defended by everyone in cast?

  On 5/20/2025 at 1:49 PM, Kaleb said:

Lots of long-time readers read that relationship in the books as romantic

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Headcanons as romantic*. There are zero Eros between them in books

[Glasfeu]

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I don't think any of your points are inherently invalid. In fact, I tend to agree. The problem is that we can't really know whether these things will pay off (or be remedied down the line) unless we get more content. 

 

I think that presents a pretty substantial problem in the overall production of the show. You have to rush some elements for world building purposes, but if you rush too much the whole thing collapses under the weight of too much world building and not enough story. On the other hand, if you try to slow roll your world building (the Wolf Dream is a good example), you run the risk of never getting to it at all because the show is cancelled. 

 

It feels to me in general that the writers know how to pay off something they've set up, teased, or foreshadowed. So I feel like some of these things you see as holes have been teed up for further development. Problem is that they are really unsatisfying unless there's a further opportunity to pay them off.

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I have to disagree with you here. To be more precise, I don't think it justifies the problem I'm talking about.

 

Even if the "holes" I'm talking about are later developed correctly, the general quality of season 2 won't change. To take Perrin's example again, even if they manage to bring a great explanation about his reaction with Hopper, it won't change the fact that when I saw the scene, I was like, "Huh? That was weird." 

 

The scenarist's job is to make the whole show coherent and interesting. And that means that individual seasons are also supposed to be coherent and interesting. Don't get me wrong; they are... mostly. But there are still some problems. And even if they are "corrected later," well, a mistake corrected is still a mistake. It's better than nothing, but it's far from perfect.

 

You're completely right that it's challenging to adapt a book correctly. But again, I don't think this is the main problem here. Many of the problems I'm talking about wouldn't have existed had the show focused on a few more scenes on some specific arc (concerning Rand, Perrin, and Mat). Instead, it feels rushed when Moiraine, Nynaeve, and Egwene's arcs are nearly perfectly developed (in season 2, season 1 writing is disastrous). It's not a problem of world-building and how to implement it. For me, it's a matter of priority and what the scenarist wanted to develop.

 

And yes, it was ultimately a valid choice. They focused their screen time on the part they were the most interested in, and that's fair. 

 

But I also understand why some people are upset with this choice.

[Kaleb]

  On 5/20/2025 at 4:46 PM, fearbrog said:

You yourself said show made themes coherent. So which theme series shows by letting Egwene do unparalleled feat rivalrd to Dark One(second time in two seasons)? Am I right that scene proves what heroes capable to do anything by themselves and don't need any help? Surely that theme consistent with taking away Rand's solo battle with Ishi and making hem be defended by everyone in cast?

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No, you're not reacting to what I wrote at all. The scene simply demonstrates the power and importance of intention and mental self-discipline related to use of the OP. Whether it elevates Egwene v Rand is a case of expectations not being met and not paying attention to the story actually being told as it unfolds.

 

Dismissing different readings as "headcanons" is a choice you can make. You say there is no Eros between them in the books, yet I and other readers see it when we read the books. Rafe and his team see it and put it onscreen. Another team could totally choose not to. I am actively interested in both readings.

[fearbrog]

  On 5/20/2025 at 4:59 PM, Kaleb said:

The scene simply demonstrates the power and importance of intention and mental self-discipline related to use of the OP.

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So the theme of scene is heroes can do all by themselves and don't need any help, is it? Like in the book, right? To make show coherent of course.

 

  On 5/20/2025 at 4:59 PM, Kaleb said:

yet I and other readers see it when we read the books. Rafe and his team see it and put it onscreen.

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I guess Avi and Elayne being reborn as sisters is some sort of metaphor of sexual intercource? 

[Kaleb]

  On 5/20/2025 at 5:38 PM, fearbrog said:

So the theme of scene is heroes can do all by themselves and don't need any help, is it? Like in the book, right? To make show coherent of course.

 

I guess Avi and Elayne being reborn as sisters is some sort of metaphor of sexual intercource? 

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I don't know what you're on about with this nonsense about heroes can do everything by themselves, you seem very single-minded. They all need each other to succeed, yet they all need to be individually strong in their different ways, this is a theme in the books. Sometimes characters do incredible things on their own, and sometimes they do incredible things together. To ultimately succeed in their biggest battles, they need to work together.

 

It's implied that Aiel first-sisters can and do have sexual relationships in the books. Sister-wives with each other as well. If you want to contest that opinion, show me a definitive book or Jordan quote that says it's flat-out not possible.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 5/20/2025 at 4:50 PM, Glasfeu said:

To take Perrin's example again, even if they manage to bring a great explanation about his reaction with Hopper, it won't change the fact that when I saw the scene, I was like, "Huh? That was weird." 

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But that's a totally different issue from what you were saying before. What I was reacting to is the notion that they've ignored Rand and Perrin's stories. They haven't. They've put focus there. Whether that focus worked for you is inherently subjective. 

[Glasfeu]

  On 5/20/2025 at 6:15 PM, Elder_Haman said:

But that's a totally different issue from what you were saying before. What I was reacting to is the notion that they've ignored Rand and Perrin's stories. They haven't. They've put focus there. Whether that focus worked for you is inherently subjective. 

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Hmm, not really...? My previous point was that Rand and Perrin's stories were rushed and half-developed. And, in my opinion, that was because the scenarists didn't want to focus their screen time too much on them, but instead were more interested in what I consider the Aes Sedai side (basically Moiraine, Egwene, and Nynaeve).

 

Sure, this is just my opinion. I gave a few examples explaining why I thought some scenes concerning Rand and Perrin were missing some essential development and were negatively impacting the show. If those scenes were great in your opinion, well, let's just agree to disagree.

 

Frankly, I fail to see how Perrin losing his mind after losing the wolf he talked with for about five seconds can be defended as a properly developed scene, but if that's your opinion, then fine by me.

 

 

 

 

[Kaleb]

  On 5/20/2025 at 3:11 PM, Glasfeu said:

 

Sure, you're right. The scenarist can have different visions about this show, and all of them are valid. I agree with you on that point. Yet, some of them will naturally upset book readers more than others, and that, too, is perfectly normal.

 

To give an extreme example, let's imagine Amazon focuses much of season 4 on vegetable cultivation. Is that valid? Sure it is. Is that okay for book reader to be angry with that choice. I believe it is...

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People can be and are angry about many things, and honestly it doesn't seem to make any difference to many of them whether other people think it's rational or not. If something makes me angry, I tend to not engage with it, because life is too short already. The extreme example here is totally absurd of course, and being implausible is hard to take seriously. But I do understand the point that producing a TV adaptation of The Wheel Of Time (or any book series) generates an expectation among readers that certain characters, events and themes will be shown. If instead we got a deep dive into Saldaean ice pepper production with the only references to the EF5 and Aes Sedai being a little gossip between farmers and merchants, then yeah, those expectations would clearly not be met. It would also be colossally bad business.

 

My counter to your example: let's imagine the Amazon series showed iconic scenes from the books, like Winternight, Shadar Logoth, Machin Shin, Nynaeve's Accepted test, Egwene captured as a damane, the battle at Falme, the columns at Rhuidean, the battle of the Two Rivers, the Aelfinn, many more. Would you be pleased with the show, despite differences in the details between what you see and what you read?

 

  On 5/20/2025 at 3:11 PM, Glasfeu said:

Unfortunately, from what I have seen, they aren't that interested in telling Rand al Thor's story, as the Dragon Reborn story, or Math and Perrin's story for what it's worth. No, it's not completely true. It's more like telling their story is a low priority for them.

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Comparison is the thief of joy. As I'll continue to say, I think your expectations are getting in the way of appreciating what the show is doing. In the books, it's all from Rand's and occasionally Perrin's perspective, at first, so we naturally feel that they are the most important characters and we sympathize with what Jordan tells us they think and feel. The show is starting out showing all the main characters as equally important, and this is a huge change in the feel of the story. It throws book readers for a loop, because we know Rand is the hero just from the structure of the early books, we're inside his head. But the show gives all the other characters big moments very early on, not just in service of the questionable Who's The Dragon? mystery, but also in the name of establishing each of these people in stories that a TV audience can care about spending time with. Because it's a complicated story and a lot of it happens away from Rand.

 

For what it's worth, I think season 3 proved they're ready to take Rand, Perrin and Mat to the next level. Perrin basically goes silent in the books at this point, so his rearranged arc will be really interesting. Likewise with Mat, they ended with his biggest character turning point. Rand was really the star in S3, and he's set to become even more dominant from here on out.

Edited May 20 by Kaleb

[Elder_Haman]

  On 5/20/2025 at 6:34 PM, Glasfeu said:

 

Hmm, not really...? My previous point was that Rand and Perrin's stories were rushed and half-developed. And, in my opinion, that was because the scenarists didn't want to focus their screen time too much on them, but instead were more interested in what I consider the Aes Sedai side (basically Moiraine, Egwene, and Nynaeve).

 

Sure, this is just my opinion. I gave a few examples explaining why I thought some scenes concerning Rand and Perrin were missing some essential development and were negatively impacting the show. If those scenes were great in your opinion, well, let's just agree to disagree.

 

Frankly, I fail to see how Perrin losing his mind after losing the wolf he talked with for about five seconds can be defended as a properly developed scene, but if that's your opinion, then fine by me.

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I'm not "defending" any particular scene, nor am I saying that any of the scenes you mentioned were "great". I'm arguing that the fact that those scenes didn't land for you is not compelling evidence that Rand and Perrin's stories are "rushed and half-developed." 

 

By your logic, all of the characters in the show (with the possible exception of Moiraine) are 'rushed and half-developed.' After all, we only got a tiny glimpse of Egwene's accepted test; we spent an entire season and a half with Nynaeve being incapable of channeling with no explanation; etc.

[Glasfeu]

  On 5/20/2025 at 6:40 PM, Elder_Haman said:

I'm not "defending" any particular scene, nor am I saying that any of the scenes you mentioned were "great". I'm arguing that the fact that those scenes didn't land for you is not compelling evidence that Rand and Perrin's stories are "rushed and half-developed." 

 

By your logic, all of the characters in the show (with the possible exception of Moiraine) are 'rushed and half-developed.' After all, we only got a tiny glimpse of Egwene's accepted test; we spent an entire season and a half with Nynaeve being incapable of channeling with no explanation; etc.

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I did try to explain why those scenes didn't land and the problem behind. If you argue that those scenes were better than i thought, we can debate the quality of Rand and Perrin storyline... if you agree that they were bad, then we can, I think, agree that there were some problem with their storyline.

 

But if your answer is just that "it"s your opinion and that's not an absolute truth," yeah, sure, you're right. But it seems to me you can answer any negative criticism like this.

 

As for Egwene and Nynaeve... look I don't want to start another discussion concerning their stories. I feel the scenarist did a great job there. There are some problem, but the most important scene the scenarist wanted to focus on with their character was properly written and developed. If you disagree fine, though I'm a little surprised, I thought I was the one with a negative opinion here 😅

 

Also, just one correction: I think Perrin and Mat's story are rushed (again, season 1 and 2). Rand's story is a little different; it's more like his story feels empty. I already explained why. And yes, that's just my feeling and my opinion.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 5/20/2025 at 7:03 PM, Glasfeu said:

if you agree that they were bad, then we can, I think, agree that there were some problem with their storyline.

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Yeah. I agree that Perrin and Mat's stories haven't really been fully realized. I feel like they will be fully developed given time though. Maybe that's where you and I diverge. 

 

I understand what you mean about Rand, and I don't disagree, but again I feel like it is in service of a larger narrative goal which is to make him the FOCUS but not the protagonist.

[Glasfeu]

  Quote

But I do understand the point that producing a TV adaptation of The Wheel Of Time (or any book series) generates an expectation among readers that certain characters, events and themes will be shown. If instead we got a deep dive into Saldaean ice pepper production with the only references to the EF5 and Aes Sedai being a little gossip between farmers and merchants, then yeah, those expectations would clearly not be met. It would also be colossally bad business.

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Yep, that's exactly my point. Scenarists can write whatever they want, but at the end of the day, there are some expectations they will have to face. It's perfectly fine not to meet them... as long as they accept the risk to have some negative reaction from their spectator.

 

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My counter to your example: let's imagine the Amazon series showed iconic scenes from the books, like Winternight, Shadar Logoth, Machin Shin, Nynaeve's Accepted test, Egwene captured as a damane, the battle at Falme, the columns at Rhuidean, the battle of the Two Rivers, the Aelfinn, many more. Would you be pleased with the show, despite differences in the details between what you see and what you read?

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Hmm, the importance for me isn't whether those elements are in the TV show or not. It's about their role in the story and what they are replacing if they aren't there.

 

Let's take the Aelfinn. They are central in the book concerning Mat evolution.

 

- If there aren't there, but the scenarist proposes another element to bring the same result, I'm fine with it.

- If they aren't there, but it doesn't matter because Mat evolution is completely different, I'm also fine with that.

- If they aren't there, but we got magically the same evolution with Mat, even though that doesn't make any sense, then yes, I have a problem.

- If they aren't there, and the scenarist aren't proposing anything with Mat instead, then yes, I have a problem.

 

Of course, I'm exaggerating here, but I feel that Rand, Perrin, and Mat sometimes get pretty close to the last two options.

 

  Quote

In the books, it's all from Rand's and occasionally Perrin's perspective, at first, so we naturally feel that they are the most important characters and we sympathize with what Jordan tells us they think and feel. The show is starting out showing all the main characters as equally important, and this is a huge change in the feel of the story. It throws book readers for a loop, because we know Rand is the hero just from the structure of the early books, we're inside his head. But the show gives us all the other characters big moments very early on, not just in service of the questionable Who's The Dragon? mystery, but also in the name of establishing each of these people in stories that a TV audience can care about spending time with. Because it's a complicated story and a lot of it happens away from Rand.

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Well, that's where we disagree. My problem isn't that every character is properly developed early on. It's that Rand, Perrin, and Mat's story is negatively impacted, and that wasn't a fatality, it was the writer's choice. Was it easy to properly develop every character? Nope, it wasn't. But it seems to me they made some specific choice concerning the story they wanted to develop correctly and the one they wanted to rush. Again, they have the right to do it. But then, we return to my first point: they have to face the expectation people have, and the negative reaction some will have.

[Skipp]

  On 5/20/2025 at 6:34 PM, Glasfeu said:

 

 

Frankly, I fail to see how Perrin losing his mind after losing the wolf he talked with for about five seconds can be defended as a properly developed scene, but if that's your opinion, then fine by me.

 

 

 

 

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It has been a few years since I have reread the series but Perrin and Hopper don't have much of a connection in the books before Hopper is killed either.  If I recall Perrin and Egwene run into Elyas, travel with him and the wolves for a couple of weeks before the Whitecloak encounter.  I don't think Perrin and Hopper actually had any time alone.

 

The show has a similar timetable for them being together.  The biggest difference I can think of is that the show has Hopper join Perrin after his disagreement with Elyas.

 

[Glasfeu]

  On 5/20/2025 at 7:30 PM, Skipp said:

 

It has been a few years since I have reread the series but Perrin and Hopper don't have much of a connection in the books before Hopper is killed either.  If I recall Perrin and Egwene run into Elyas, travel with him and the wolves for a couple of weeks before the Whitecloak encounter.  I don't think Perrin and Hopper actually had any time alone.

 

The show has a similar timetable for them being together.  The biggest difference I can think of is that the show has Hopper join Perrin after his disagreement with Elyas.

 

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It's been some time, but from what I remember, Perrin's reaction comes from the fact that he shares the wolf emotion while fighting with them; basically, he becomes one with the pack. Because the book shows Perrin's state of mind, we understand what he feels, and so we understand his actions.

 

And just in case, if the tv show have the same explanation (it really didn't seem like it), then fine, but their job was to devellop and explain this properly so that we can understand the scene. And they didn't...