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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

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Posted

Hello Dragonmount,

 

I've been reading WoT for about 3 years and have made it up to the aftermath of the Caemlyn in book 5, the Fires of Heaven. I'm really enjoying the series especially the more recent books that I've read. The Visions of Rhuidean is one of my favorite pieces of story telling that I've experienced. I typically listen to the audio books on my commute home from work but will sometimes pull out a physical copy or look for a chapter summary on the TarValon Library wiki to answer some of my own questions, especially when it comes to keeping track of who's who. Keeping the Forsaken straight is probably my biggest challenge right now being an audio book listener, but I think I'm getting a feel for who's who and trying to figure out their motivations is interesting: I'm shocked to see Asmodean playing so nice right now, I assume he's just incredibly afraid of Lanfear. I also do watch the show, overall I thought the first two seasons were a little rough but they did get me into the series but it seems to be getting better and although the rate that things are happening is really ramping up, I think they've done a much better job at bringing the cool moments from the Shadow Rising to the screen.

Today, as I was listening, I had a question that I really wish I could talk with someone about, which is what motivated me to seek out the community here. Rand was thinking about his Lews Therin Telamon memories and the other names of the Forsaken while in a post battle discussion with Asmodean and Aviendha. As I mentioned before, this got me thinking of Asmodean's motivations which in turn made me wonder about the cyclical nature of the world and what people believe will happen after the last battle. This caught my interest, because in some ways it doesn't make sense based on my understanding of Ishamael's beliefs, but maybe I'm jumping to another question too quickly. Let me try and spell out my noticings and wonderings. Hopefully there's a minimal amount of mistakes and misunderstandings and you can follow my thought process.

 

1. Is the prophesized last battle part of the cycle? I guess I always assumed it was. That after the event that released the Dark One, my understanding was there would be a period of respite and progress and then the Dark One would come back again in the next age.

 

2. What do the people of the world think will happen if the light wins? If they lose? How does this belief change depending on the factions individuals belong to?

 

3. Historically, the dragon has always won. If the Dark One won and it wasn't a reality ending event, yes I could see avoiding it would still be the preference, but it wouldn't carry the fate altering weight that this event seems to. Why would immortal characters like the Forsaken join the Dark One for fleeting victories every few centuries? What would start the cycle over again once the Dark One is in a position of unbridled power?

 

4. This particular last battle might be different. Maybe it would bring an end to the cycle of the Dark One's rise to power and influence on the world. I'm not sure why this one is different. Maybe it's because it's the during the age we're reading about in the book series. But from my reading and some of the characters' dialogue it seems implied that there could be a change this time. Maybe Rand is more different than previous Lews Therins.

 

5. If Ishamael believes that the Dark One's success is inevitable over a long enough time line, why is Rand still alive? No dragon at the last battle means the light loses. Ishamael makes it sound like this outcome has happened before, what happened after that? Why wasn't that the end of it? What else needs to happen for the Dark One to win entirely?

 

I think I might be losing the thread of my initial question. I'm really not trying to ask what happens in the rest of the series, but I am wildly curious about what people believe has happened in the past and what they think might happen. These beliefs seem core to any motivations the different characters might have.

 

Thanks for reading and engaging with my questions! It really is such an imaginative series, it's a lot of fun to think about these fictional histories and I appreciate hearing about things I may have missed and various interpretations. I'm not the most concerned with spoilers, especially when it comes to references to the world and lore which can typically be kept more general anyways.

 

-Searcher

 

Posted

Welcome to DM, Searcher.

 

I cannot answer your questions cos I'm very much a surface level fan, but we have a whole section dedicated to the books and questions. This place holds all those who deep dive into lore and things.

 

And if you've been watching the TV show we also have a discussion board for that.

 

It's not all discussions though, if you just want to hang out, we have our Orgs where you can kind of take on the role of Randland folks, such as the White Tower, the Band and Shayol Ghul

 

And we have games too. We play a game called Mafia, where you have to figure out who is on your team and who is not.

 

And I'm currently running a Choose your own adventure. Don't worry about needing to catch up, just skip to the last Choices post and vote using the Reactions.

  • RP - PLAYER
Posted

Ooo, deep questions. I have to say for me, you are touching upon some of the weakest parts in the worldbuilding of WoT. Jordan hints at things, but I think that they don't really add up if you look at them too closely. I'm sure that many others feel differently, however. I'll try to give my answer your questions briefly.

 

1. Yes. Each Age appears to have major events that start and end them. We don't full details of what these are, or any real details how they differ between turnings. But we can see that the Seventh Age is ended by something truly apocalyptic, so that the First Age, our Age, starts from the literal Stone Age. We could guess that the Second Age starts with the discovery of the One Power, but it is opaque what would end the First Age. The Second Age ends with the Bore being made and the Breaking. The Third Age, Rand's, ends with Tar'mon Gaiden, where the Seals on the Bore fail and the Dark One has the opportunity to escape from his prison. These appear to be constants in turning of the Wheel, though as I say, what variation is possible is never explained.

 

2. If the Light wins, the Bore is sealed and the Dark One can no longer touch the world. If the Shadow wins, the prison is broken open (to what degree is not clear - possibly only that the Bore is maintained, or enlarged without actually freeing the DO) and the Dark One reforms the world in his own image in the Fourth Age. 

 

3. and 4. Where it gets tricky. Ishamael seems to think that this special turning of the Wheel it is possible not just to free the Dark One but to break the Wheel completely and end time. Is this an unreliable narrator? Is it a way of upping the stakes and fit the story to a linear narrative? One take is that only if the Dragon submits will the Dark One truly win and get free, which has never happened nor ever will (as we see in Rand's flicker-verse lives), until it does when it will happen everywhere at once - as the DO being imprisoned is a constant throughout the flicker-verse, or him being free. That is why killing Rand straight off might win the Last Battle, but not get the DO what he wants. It is important to remember that the Shadow have foretelling and prophecy as well, and this could be pushing everyone to set up the same situation where the victory conditions are possible for both sides. If the Dragon doesn't make it to the Last Battle, then the Bore cannot be repaired and nor can the prison be destroyed. Possibly the Third Age is the only time the Dragon - as the Creator's Champion - can submit. But then is this Third Age not the same as all the others? And what happens if Ishamael balefires Rand? Or would the Pattern not allow this to happen? What else would be in effect physically impossible?

 

5. Ishamael seems better at philosophy than Rand, which is not surprising. But as noted above, winning the Last Battle is not breaking the Wheel - and it is also worth pointing out that no one in the Shadow presumably actually wants this total victory, apart from the DO and Ishamael. They want material rewards in the world that Ishamael is trying to destroy.

 

So it is tricky - both the reader and the characters cannot be left to think - it is all cyclical so it doesn't matter if we fail. But there is not really an answer to Ishamael's argument that if it is all pain and suffering for eternity, what is the point? If the whole thing is balance, i.e. the brighter the Light shines, the deeper the Shadow - again what is the point? If Lews Therin had managed to seal the Bore completely, something else would just have had to happen to cause the Breaking and then the approach of the Last Battle in the following Age. If Rand fails completely, seven Ages later he gets another chance, where it again doesn't matter, long-term. Any improvement will directly lead to a worsening, caused by the Pattern. If someone chooses not to be a Darkfriend through free will, the Pattern will force someone else to be to achieve the same goals. 

 

For me, if you examine it too closely, Jordan never reconciles the cyclical/linear problems, never explains why you need to fight for the Light if that will only strengthen the Shadow. I think you just have to leave these as mysteries that have an answer but we don't have enough information to see. 

 

I hope none of this crosses to deeply into spoiler territory, I have tried to only touch upon the issues that are brought up and illuminated in the first four books. My sincere apologies if I have overstepped the mark anywhere.

Posted

Welcome to DM, Searcher! I'm a longtime fan and I still have trouble keeping the character straight. I was even thinking of making a chart of to help me keep track next time I give a reas through. 😅

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