Aram

[rd2000]

I was re-reading KOD and the part where Aram attacks Perrin just doesn't wash unless he was under compulsion. Perrin would have smelled something wrong in him if Aram were slowly becoming distrustful of Perrin (brainwashing ala Macema)Aram just snapped and tried to kill Perrin.

 

The comment Sammael made to Graendal in LOC also came to mind here. The "events to the south have Demandreds mark all over them". I believe Demandred or someone in his service used compulsion on Aram to try and kill Perrin when the opportune moment arrived. Sort of a time bomb. Also, I think Aram was supposed to say something incriminating against Macema so that if he failed, suspicion would be placed where Demandred wanted it. This just seems to fit Demandred's MO so well.

[Mazrim Taim]

I have to agree, there is significant evidence present of Aram being under dark influences...he was so faithful some might think he merely became over fanatical and even Perrin couldn't live up to Aram's vision of him and being so devout Aram had to destroy Perrin to preserve image from self destruction...but I tend to think Compulsion is more likely or at least strong Suggestion.

[callandor]

i have to disagree. i remember aram scent becoming different after Faile was

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kidnapped, and when he snapped i think it waws just poisoning from masemas stupid thoughts and ideas.

[RobertAlexWillis]

In addition, after Faile's kidnapping, Perrin saw less of Aram, and Perrin became less observant (or caring) about the world around him in general.  Aram's behavior does not require Compulsion to make sense.

[rd2000]

Read the passage again. His behaviour changed radically. Again I repeat, Perrin would have smelled something wrong with him if he were changing slowly. Perrin had no clue besides the fact he was spending more and more time with Masema.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Read my response again.  His behavior changed while Perrin wasn't paying attention.  Perrin saw less of him because he was around Masema more, and when Perrin did see Aram, he was distracted.

[rd2000]

 

"A hint of motion at the corner of his left eye made him throw himself to the right. A sword whisked through the air where his neck would have been. Aram's sword. The onetime Tinker had taken wounds, too.

Blood coated half his face like a strange mask, there were blood-wet rents in his red-striped coat, and his eyes looked almost glazed, like those of a corpse, but he still seemed to be dancing with that blade in his hands. His scent was the scent of death, a death he sought.

    "Have you gone mad?" Perrin growled. Steel rang against steel as he blocked that sword away with the head of his hammer. "What are you doing?" He blocked another slice of the blade, tried to grapple the other man, and barely danced back in time to get away with only a gash across his ribs.

    "The Prophet explained it to me." Aram sounded in a daze, yet his sword moved with liquid ease, blows barely diverted with hammer or belt knife as Perrin backed away. All he could do was hope he did not trip over a tent rope or come up against a tent. "Your eyes. You're really Shadowspawn. It was you who brought the Trollocs to the Two Rives. He explained it all. Those eyes, I should have known the first time I saw you. You and Elyas with those Shadowspawn eyes. I have to rescue the Lady Faile from you."

 

This is from KOD, chapter Outside the Gates, page 649 of the hardcover.

 

Maybe it's just me, but I thought RJ went out of his way to describe Aram in such a way that implies compulsion.

[RobertAlexWillis]

What, exactly, in that passage implies Compulsion to you?  The fact that he "sounded in a daze"?  There are lots and lots of things that do that to a person other than Compulsion, and psychological manipulation is one of them.  Aram wasn't exactly stable to begin with.

 

If it was Compulsion, then why did Masema (or whoever did it) give himself away by spending tons of time with Aram?  Compulsion takes one trip, maybe two if Masema had to call in help, and gives Perrin alot less reason to be suspicious (assuming he's paying attention, which he wasn't).

 

But seriously ... nothing there screams "Compulsion" to me.  Manipulation?  Sure.  But not by any other methods than the ones that produce suicide bombers in the real world.

[rd2000]

Actually, his eyes being glazed implied compulsion to me. The trips to Masema, along with his speech as he attacked Perrin just implies Demandred-style mis-direction.

        Consider this, Masema was Demandred's puppet all along. With Masema being summoned to Rand, and with Perrin "escorting" him there, Demandred needs to discredit or kill Masema before he can give clues to Demandred's whereabouts or motives. This theory also requires that the two Aes Sedai that have been meeting Masema in secret most likely be Darkfriends. They could be the source of the compulsion. Farfetched speculation, I know and admit, but also possible and definately not beyond Demandred. I know that simply killing Masema would be easier, but this way sows more chaos, especially in the forces of the light.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I don't have a problem with the idea of Masema being a pawn of either Demandred, the Black Ajah, or both.  I just don't see how it necessarily follows that Aram had to be the victim of Compulsion.  Masema is clearly not using Compulsion (either personally or through his Darkfriend channeler connections) on ALL his followers.  And Aram's behavior strikes me as typical fanatacism.  There are crazy people in the world, and it doesn't come from Compulsion.  It comes from being subjected to psychological manipulation.

 

Again, if Compulsion were used, there would be no need for the numerous trips, which simply drew attention to Aram's changing loyalties (to anyone paying attention).  Compulsion would have taken ... one, at most two trips.  Anything else would be making the situation more suspicious, which would be counterproductive from either Demandred or the Black Ajah's view.

 

On the other hand, repeated exposure and time spent together would be necessary for Aram to be manipulated into attacking Perrin of his own accord.  The second scenario is what we see.

 

Having eyes that "look almost glazed" fits fanatic rage as easily as Compulsion.

[rd2000]

The numerous trips were required to make it look like he was becoming a follower.

Show me where RJ has mentioned any of Masema's followers with glazed eyes or talking in a daze.

Instead, RJ has shown Masema to be gathering followers who follow through fear, or greed, or the desire to do evil things in his name and get away with it.

The fanatics are the Whitecloaks.

[callandor]

im gonna say that he "sounded in a daze" because he never wanted to belive that Perrin was a darkfriend/shadowspawn, but "realized" that he was because of Masemas stupid teachings and ways.

 

i hope that makes sense, cause if it does, its good. :)

[RobertAlexWillis]

The numerous trips were required to make it look like he was becoming a follower.

 

Um ... wouldn't that be counterproductive?  The whole idea was to turn someone close to Perrin against him secretly.  Why make it obvious that he was listening to Masema?

 

Unless that was necessary because of how he was being turned.

[lou]

perrin had regretted many times turning the tinker to the sword. perrin mentioned numerous times that he knew that aram was faile's man to the bone, even over perrin. i really dont believe for a minute that perrin didnt sense something wrong with aram, which doesnt necesarily mean compulsion. it doesnt take much manipulation to turn a man so broken.

[callandor]

i bet he thought perrin would get in 5the way of rescuing FAile.

[rd2000]

The numerous trips were required to make it look like he was becoming a follower.

 

Um ... wouldn't that be counterproductive?  The whole idea was to turn someone close to Perrin against him secretly.  Why make it obvious that he was listening to Masema?

 

Unless that was necessary because of how he was being turned.

 

Any plan by Demandred must have a failure clause. ;D In this case the failure clause was that in case Aram didn't succeed in Priority 1 (killing Perrin), then the attempt must be made to throw as much suspicion on Masema as possible. This was accomplished by being seen making numerous trips to Masema's camp and his words to Perrin as he made his attempt on his life.

 

Maybe failure clause is the wrong wording.....backup plan is better.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Wow ... that's really reaching.

 

Demandred: Hmmm ... this plan might not work ... so I'll decrease its chances of working to provide a cover story ... which I don't really need, since, if Aram seems to randomly freaks out and tries to kill Perrin, there's absolutely no way to connect that to me.

[rd2000]

Ahh, but the connection to Demandred IS there. It's Masema. And is why he is priority #2. That is why

I say it has the marks of Demandred on it....the failure of priority #1 causes a higher probablility of priority #2-the discrediting of Masema and ultimately the demise of Masema in order to protect Demandred.

[Child of Lir]

Whilst many of us would agree that Demandred is quite likely the force behind Masema, I agree with RobertAlexWillis in that there is no evidence that Aram was under Compulsion. There's lots of speculation, but no facts. The facts we do have about Aram are that he has totally abandoned the way of life and philosophy of peace he was brought up in for a life of violence. Now, if violence isn't enough to send someone a little crazy, add to that the fact that violence is the total opposite of the Way of the Leaf, and there's plenty to explain his mental state. He is a fanatic and there's a fine line between fanaticism and madness.

 

Perrin smells the fanaticism on Aram many times. He knows that he is mentally unbalanced, dangerous and unpredictable. He is emotionally and psychologically damaged. He is always looking for answers: at first he looks to Perrin, then to Masema. His mental state is so fragile that he can be easily lead, and this is what Masema does to him.

 

Conjecture is all very well, but we can only deal with facts. I know RJ is obscure, but not that obscure...!

[vegetattack15]

Whilst many of us would agree that Demandred is quite likely the force behind Masema, I agree with RobertAlexWillis in that there is no evidence that Aram was under Compulsion. There's lots of speculation, but no facts. The facts we do have about Aram are that he has totally abandoned the way of life and philosophy of peace he was brought up in for a life of violence. Now, if violence isn't enough to send someone a little crazy, add to that the fact that violence is the total opposite of the Way of the Leaf, and there's plenty to explain his mental state. He is a fanatic and there's a fine line between fanaticism and madness.

 

Perrin smells the fanaticism on Aram many times. He knows that he is mentally unbalanced, dangerous and unpredictable. He is emotionally and psychologically damaged. He is always looking for answers: at first he looks to Perrin, then to Masema. His mental state is so fragile that he can be easily lead, and this is what Masema does to him.

 

Conjecture is all very well, but we can only deal with facts. I know RJ is obscure, but not that obscure...!

 

Well put, agreed.

[rd2000]

I understand my theory is just speculation, and I like to read counter theories and rebukes. But, deduction based only on facts will not lead you very far in this series. And even the better minds here constantly argue over what is fact and what is not. These debates keep us occupied until the final book gets out, I hope.

[Child of Lir]

Ah, but the facts RJ gives us can sometimes be teeny weeny blink-and-you miss 'em ones! In my experience, for many of the mysteries that he's given us to solve along the way, he's also given us enough facts to solve them - so long as we pick them up along the way. Of course, he's also given us complete surprises too - which are just as much fun!

 

I think it all depends on the way one's mind works - some of us are logical, others intuitive, and others a bit of both.  :)

[Guest cwestervelt]

I never considered it to be a matter of Compulsion.  Aram was never right since the Tinker's were slaughtered in the Two Rivers.  As a result, there isn't really anything surprising about Perrin not picking up on him going over the edge.  There wasn't any need for someone to Compel him.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Ahh, but the connection to Demandred IS there. It's Masema.

 

If you can show me anywhere, any tiny inkling, that Perrin, or anyone with him, has that Masema is connected to Demandred, I will not only bake you a bunch of cookies, I'll pay to airmail them to you so they arrive fresh.

 

Demandred has zero reason to think that Perrin can trace Aram to him through Masema.  Come on man.  Its not even a sure link for the readers! 

[rd2000]

Ahh, but the connection to Demandred IS there. It's Masema.

 

If you can show me anywhere, any tiny inkling, that Perrin, or anyone with him, has that Masema is connected to Demandred, I will not only bake you a bunch of cookies, I'll pay to airmail them to you so they arrive fresh.

 

Demandred has zero reason to think that Perrin can trace Aram to him through Masema.  Come on man.  Its not even a sure link for the readers! 

 

The link to Masema is also speculation, but, based on a conversation between Sammael and

Graendal. The "things to the south have Demandred's mark all over them" comment made me believe that Masema is a tool of Demandreds.

 

I get the feeling I am angering you RAW by posting this theory. If so, I am sorry. I am just trying to entertain, truth be told...