Question about New Spring

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

So I have finally actually read New Spring as opposed to just looking at it on my desk and thinking that I had. (How I did not realise how vague I was on the details, I am not sure - Moiraine and Suian in the Tower, bla bla, Lan and the pond, bla bla bla, searching for the Dragon, the end. This must literally have been what I had in my mind, and apparently I thought that seemed perfectly adequate for a novel. I mean it is not as lengthy as some of Jordan's works but still.)

 

Anyhoo, before I finished the series (ok thought I had finished the series) last year I had never looked WoT up on the internet. I mean it wasn't a thing when I started reading, and then, not sure, never really thought about it. So I don't know where for example I heard about Jordan's death, or any of the other information about the series that I did pick up over the years. I was in book shops a lot, but I cannot remember them ever dispensing that kind of info. Sorry, I appear to be rambling. 

 

Right, the actual question is, was New Spring the original start to the books? The opening section with Lan inspecting his troops is so clunky and odd, it really feels like it was the first bit Jordan ever wrote of WoT. My ramblings above were meant to impart I have no idea where this idea came from, but I am absolutely positive that the information that Jordan started writing with the Dragon being an older man that is told he is meant to save the world (and he doesn't want to), but he had difficulties with this idea and it all went more smoothly when he changed this to a more cliched younger man/coming of age story. Not sure how that fits in with the other origin story that it was originally some sort of Lord of the Rings fanfiction that you read fairly often on the forums. So when I heard that New Spring was coming out - I assumed (or did I read it somewhere? *shrugs*) that Jordan re-worked his original older Dragon introduction into a short story and then novel. It makes sense that he would reuse Moiraine as the Gandalf/mentor figure and her Warder also fits nicely into the story. Of course if I am right, I have no idea how much of Lan was passed to Rand, and how much stayed with him. Was the original Dragon an uncrowned King? Were there other ta'veren? Who knows?

 

But is this entirely in my head (cannot rule that out) or is there any evidence of this, or any reason to think it might be possible? Did anyone else hear this or have this inclination? Does it sound even possible? Is it kind of cool to imagine another turning of the Wheel where not only does Lan have to deal with Moiraine, Siuan, and Nynaeve but is also the Dragon Reborn?

 

Or did I just get really high one day and this is the vestiges of some sort of trip and everyone is now filled with revulsion and/or pity at my non-canonical heresy?

Edited June 7 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade
how long have a been mispelling Siuan? O.o

[books of Robert Jordan]

NS is basically a 'I get a bunch of questions about the WT, Moi, Lan from my readers all the time, and I've collected my answers into a short book.'  (Moi disappears early in the series, way earlier than FOH, but very popular character, Lan's situation is the same.)

There's a good story in it, but it could have been much better: and while its length limits everything, Jordan should have cut certain things, or rather he should have written a longer novel, but writing a longer novel meant putting aside the new book in the main series, which not a good news, so we got this half-polished end product.

I think it's clear, and it was clear even back then: WOT is RAND's story, WOT is all about Rand, without him there is no cohesion, without him just interesting tidbits 'every' storyline, and it's very obvious that Jordan did not put enough time and thinking into NS.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Thanks for your opinion, but it doesn't actually answer the question. Did NS come from the original, abandoned WoT beginning where the Dragon Reborn was an older man, i.e. Lan?

 

But you think that RJ really wanted everyone to know how gay Moiraine and Siuan were?

Edited June 7 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade

[Samt]

51 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

But you think that RJ really wanted everyone to know how gay Moiraine and Suian were?

Assuming that he did, he also wanted it to be clear that lesbianism is a phase that people get over when they are fully mature.  

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

11 hours ago, Samt said:

Assuming that he did, he also wanted it to be clear that lesbianism is a phase that people get over when they are fully mature.  

Dude, really? In canon, due to keeping their search for the Dragon Reborn secret from the Black Ajah they pretend to not know each other after being raised to the shawl. In NS, this is a bit confused as it does not happen immediately after being raised (though nearly) but they are also the most memorably attached couple in the history of the Tower, being the only two sisters ever raised together. Which makes the attempt to get everyone to forget they ever knew each other a bit strange really, but there you are. So in their case, Jordan says absolutely nothing about it being phase, he very clearly makes it a sacrifice they make to dedicate their lives to the Prophecies of the Dragon.

 

Elsewhere in the books, male homosexuality is largely ignored. While Jordan thinks that the Tower would a hotbed of sapphic love with no men about, this does not appear to be the case in any all male settings. Men have better control of their urges, I guess the message is there, or that men loving men is not as entertaining. But female homosexuality is explored fairly extensively in comparison - we have lesbian red sisters, some of whom think that Aspirant relationships should end when raised, others who think they should or could at least continue. We have a noblewoman and a Windfinder that turn to each other sexually partly due to loneliness (where also the sexual nature of pillowfriends is made concrete in canon, until that point it was vague but suggestive, however no man would divorce his wife for being good friends with another woman, the threat to the marriage makes it explicitly a sexual and romantic relationship). There is definitely evidence that Jordan considered homosexuality in women something that would happen in a last resort of women with no other sexual options, but there is no evidence that he thought homosexuality is a phase that people get over when they are mature. As in there are multiple mature lesbians in the story, and the reason for the ending of Siuan and Moiraine's relationship had nothing to do with maturing at all - that is explicitly explained in canon. 

 

So the fact that you obviously project your own prejudices on other people, does not change what is actually written in the story. In canon, your statement above is objectively wrong. In reality, it is simply offensive. 

Edited June 7 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade
how many typos?

[Samt]

8 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

So the fact that you obviously project your own prejudices on other people, does not change what is actually written in the story. In canon, your statement above is objectively wrong. In reality, it is simply offensive. 

You're projecting your real world ideas into a fantasy world.  We don't know what RJ thought about the real world, but many of his characters clearly believed that lesbianism was usually a phase that Aes Sedai got over once they reached the shawl.  Siuan and Moiraine specifically didn't think the sexual element of their relationship would last regardless of DR prophesies.  Moreover, they are both all in on their heterosexual relationships by the end of series.  It's not as if Thom and Gareth are beards.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I have not in anyway said what Jordan thought in real life. I was referring to the books. And yes, the couple refer to possibly being split up to go be a ruler's advisor or whatever but I don't remember anything about them talking about their relationship ending. Maybe I missed that, though I have just finished reading it. And the fact that they are in relationships with men at the end of the books would point to them being bisexual or pansexual - there is no canon renunciation of homosexuality. 

 

Some of his characters think that relationships formed while an aspirant should not carry over. Some of the characters think that they should. This makes no comment about homosexual relationships in general, but those formed in the Tower. You are trying insert things which do not exist in the books. 

 

And thanks for trying to derail my thread without commenting on the question it was posted for. Very kind of you. I'm not sure why you need to expend so much energy into arguing, based on nothing that is actually in the books, that two characters that have a long, deep homosexual relationship in the books are not "gay". Perhaps the word means something different to you than it does to me.

[books of Robert Jordan]

18 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Thanks for your opinion, but it doesn't actually answer the question. Did NS come from the original, abandoned WoT beginning where the Dragon Reborn was an older man, i.e. Lan?

 

But you think that RJ really wanted everyone to know how gay Moiraine and Siuan were?

 

I think it does. (From my point of view.) He was towering above anybody else, see the sales figures, even the number of the sold copies of NS in its first year (hardcover!) was unreachable to anybody else in the last 20 years, except GRRM, who got a minuscule help from HBO. 

 

I don't think he did it for the money..

 

While he was able to answer many questions in one book,

 

Robert Jordan: I wrote New Spring to be accessible to people with no knowledge of the world at all. Of course, people who do know the world will spot some things that others won't, and perhaps get a few answers to some of their questions. And they will get to see something that I have been asked about fairly often, the test for Aes Sedai.

 

maybe he felt that he could even write a prequel, because he was sitting on top of the world. He sold more copies of NS than the second and third and fourth and fifth most successful author of TOR combined!

 

About their 'homosexuality' (Moi and Siuan are not homosexuals):

"Sometimes I wish we still were novices, you and I. Still innocent enough to see it all as a gleeman's tale come true, still innocent enough to think we would find men—they would be princes, remember, handsome and strong and gentle? – who could bear to live with women of an Aes Sedai's power. Still innocent enough to dream of the happy ending to the gleeman's tale, of living our lives as other women do, just with more than they."

"We are Aes Sedai, Siuan. We have our duty. Even if you and I had not been born to channel, would you give it up for a home and a husband, even a prince? I do not believe it. That is a village goodwife's dream. Not even the Greens go so far."

And one can find easily many more proofs of their heterosexuality.

(And to 'contradict' myself: don't forget: the WT based on the Vatican/Catholic Church. Things happen in similar strict institutions.)

 

I didn't have much time, but I've selected a few quotes from Robert Jordan – these are the 'official' assertions (and you can accept them, or you can refuse them), you can read them here :

 

Eric from Nashville: Was the storyline for "New Spring" one that was created at the same time as the rest of the WoT plot, or did you come up with it specifically for the Legends anthology?
RJ: The basis was notes that I had made for myself on backstory, things that I had never intended to put into the books themselves, but that I needed to know to write the books: such as where did Moiraine and Lan meet, and where did they come from.

 

RJ: First, Bob Silverberg asked me to do a short piece for an anthology entitle Legends, and the result was the novella New Spring. What I first mapped out to write, though, would have been much too long, so I had to revise extensively just to keep it down to novella length. Later, I happened to mention this to my publisher in the States, Tom Doherty of Tor Books, and he asked me whether I could expand the novella to the originally planned novel length. That wasn't really possible, but what I did was rewrite the novella to a considerable extent to make it what I originally wanted. And I was quite right about the length. As a novella, it was a little over 30,000 words. As a novel, the story is about 120,000 words.

 

Why did you decide to publish New Spring between the main volumes?
Robert Jordan: Actually, it was a way to take a little break. To still be writing, but write something that was a little different. I also thought I could do the short novels quickly enough that they would not delay the main sequence novels and would provide my readers with a book a little quicker than they would otherwise get it.

 

RJ: You know, the reception of New Spring: the Novel surprised me. Some people were upset or even angry that I wasn't getting on with the main story. I even heard people say there was no reason to read the novel if you had read the novella. (That, by the way, is very wrong. There is stuff in that novel that won't ever be anywhere else, including the test for Aes Sedai and the reasons why certain people have the relationships they do in the books among other things.)
Anyway, given the reactions of so many people, I decided to shelve the other two prequels for a while.

 

Unfortunately Robert Jordan took too seriously of the reactions to COT, that's why KOD went a little bit awry, but that's for another topic.

 

Edited June 7 by books of Robert Jordan
readability

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

His quotes do not completely rule out that NS came from his first attempt at writing WoT, though it far from offers any support for such a notion either. It still feels right to me, and it also makes sense in terms of how the story is built. But obviously this is not an official position, nor a common idea or Jordan would presumably have answered such a posit.

 

On the sexuality part - dreaming of husbands (especially while rejecting the idea) does not fully support normative heterosexuality. The books are clear that families are overwhelmingly made up of mothers and fathers - I can think of no counter example. But in societies such as ancient Greece this was also true, while also homosexuality was rife, to the point that an ancient Greek probably would not have understood the distinction. Both types of sexual activity and relationships were everyday. 

 

Now I am not saying that this is what Jordan had envisaged - but it is also difficult to image why people who were completely heterosexual would ever have relationships with their own gender. I certainly cannot understand it. Unless you take that sexuality is a spectrum, with most people falling in the middle rather than at the two ends - this would explain why so many people refer to homosexuality as a choice, and explain homophobia as repressed homosexual urges. But whatever the case, it cannot be denied that they are canonically queer. Putting it down to immature relationships has no grounding in modern psychology or in the canon of the books. It is simply something that happens without further explanation. 

[Samt]

52 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

And thanks for trying to derail my thread without commenting on the question it was posted for. Very kind of you. I'm not sure why you need to expend so much energy into arguing, based on nothing that is actually in the books, that two characters that have a long, deep homosexual relationship in the books are not "gay". Perhaps the word means something different to you than it does to me.

You asked the question.  If you didn't want to discuss it, why did you bring it up?  Don't ask a question, spout off for three paragraphs when someone gives a concise answer, and then claim that I am derailing "your" thread.  

 

They are very clearly not homosexual.  They are perhaps bisexual.  Words have definitions.  It's not about what it means to you or me.  

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

So your argument would be that they are not gay, they are queer? The semantics are that important?

 

And the thread was meant to be about the origins of NS. Yes, it was undoubtedly an indiscreet comment from me. And I am not against discussing it as it relates to the origin of NS, but I would rather not have to go in such discussions on their own merit.

 

Do you have any thoughts on is there any relationship between the supposed start where the Dragon Reborn was an older man? Had you heard that too? Did you ever think that had anything to do with NS? Do you think the idea sounds stupid?

[Samt]

4 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

So your argument would be that they are not gay, they are queer? The semantics are that important?

 

And the thread was meant to be about the origins of NS. Yes, it was undoubtedly an indiscreet comment from me. And I am not against discussing it as it relates to the origin of NS, but I would rather not have to go in such discussions on their own merit.

 

Do you have any thoughts on is there any relationship between the supposed start where the Dragon Reborn was an older man? Had you heard that too? Did you ever think that had anything to do with NS? Do you think the idea sounds stupid?

I've never had someone give me a coherent answer as to what the word queer means. From what I understand, it basically is a catch all for someone who doesn't want to commit to a label that actually has a well-defined meaning.  It can be applied to anyone who isn't cis-gendered heterosexual, but even that seems to not be a hard limitation if someone who is outwardly conforming to conventional roles wants to claim to be different.  What do you think it means?

 

As far as New Spring and the beginning, the first bit of New Spring is actually where I started reading WoT.  I had decided to read the series and didn't realize that it was not really the first book.  I switched to TEoTW after the first chapter (and didn't finish NS until after AMoL), but it was still my introduction to WoT.  

 

The old, grizzled soldier is a character that RJ used several times, so I don't think we should assume that Lan from NS is related to the original Rand.  Lan and Moiraine in NS do both feel very different than their characters in the main timeline, but I think that is intentional to show what the intervening 20 or so years has done to them.  Frankly, I like the additional perspective and it makes me especially like Moiraine a lot more as a character. 

 

I am not really inclined to believe that RJ ever sat down and wrote out a beginning with the older Rand and then used it as the beginning to NS.  I suspect that the older Rand was something that never really got to paper in full prose. He would also have to change so much that it would probably be easier to write it all fresh anyways.  Whether or not the characters were embodying some of the same archetype in RJ's mind is more of a philosophical question about the nature of fiction.  

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Thank you for your perspective. It still just feels so convenient and right to me, but that is obviously inside my head. I just imagine that he had the start - the Dragon meeting Moiraine who needs a Warder, the lake, the Malkier business, who knows how much was the same and then when it changed to the farmboys why not keep all that as the back story for two main characters. This would apparently though not be in any way a common thought.

 

Queer, as in the Q in the LGBTQ+ acronym, is an umbrella term for anyone that does not want to for example publicly announce their orientation, is not sure of it exactly, or is not perfectly pigeon-holed into any specific orientation. The Q+ also hopefully stops letters being added to the acronym, as that covers any other possibility. This is what a lovely asexual woman who came to my son's school to give a talk to parents about LGBTQ+, so I would be fairly confident this is the "official" meaning, though of course the word has existed for a long time.

 

NS definitely makes Moiraine more human, indeed she is quite annoyingly human at times. I did like the imagery of her dancing and fireballing trollocs in her testing. 

[Samt]

What if the dragon had a carneira?  That would be a bit of a different story.  

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

True. He would have his carneira, Lanfear and Moiraine to deal with all at the same time. 

[Andra]

What if Moiraine were his carneira?

There must be a reason it was brought up in the context of what she saw in the rings in Rhuidean.  That would certainly explain where RJ got the idea for that little tidbit.

 

But seriously - I would view the genesis of New Spring as sort of Jordan's version of The Silmarillion.  He finally wrote down the ideas he had always had in his head as his Legendarium.  I don't think he had ever intended to write it out until Silverberg approached him.  If he had ever conceived of the Dragon Reborn as an older man when he met Moiraine, I don't think it ever got any further than an idea.  Certainly not far enough to be considered his original intent for the beginning of the story.

 

If he had written a novel as long as those in the rest of the series, it probably would have included Jain Farstrider, the Fall of Malkier, and the events that led to Laman's Sin, not just its aftermath.  We would have actually met Tigraine, not just the people who once knew her.  We might have seen how Luc and Isam met and "teamed up" and what happened when Janduin encountered them in the Blight.

 

Those were all things RJ probably had in those notes, and he picked a relatively small bit of it out to write the version of New Spring we ultimately got.

 

Imagine getting your hands on those notes.

Edited June 9 by Andra

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Yeah, those notes would be awesome to have. And probably very frustrating, as they would not be organized for someone else to understand, but undoubtedly amazing. 

 

I always got the impression that Jordan made a concerted effort with the Dragon as an older man. I mean, why even mention it unless it was significant? If it was just one discarded idea among many, I don't see why I would even know about. But obviously I have no idea, really, just an impression. 

 

Though as I say I don't understand how here you read that tEotW is so like LotR in many ways because Jordan was actually angling to get permission to write in the LotR franchise - that would have been something, being an official writer for both Howard's and Tolkien's worlds - if the book originally was nothing like it at all. Indeed I suppose I originally thought that mention was made of this alternative start to show that Jordan did not want to use the tropes and cliches from Tolkien but "had" to due to having to make the book stand alone while at the same time also be the start of the most epic story of all time. He needed those cliches to do some heavy lifting with the limited scope he had while also building a unique world for the back story. But yeah, this is what happens when you think about stuff for years and years by yourself. It is just not healthy, lol.