Padan Fain, what noone saw

[KingK]

Hello all,

 

Soo, this is worth the read. So much; that I'd like to be challenged on my fan theory because I truthly believe it's a fact more than a theory for the books. I made a Facebook post to a page about it, I had so many people in awe and agree with me that I needed to post it here: For I feel you are the creme of the crop to challenge this.

 

(Also, audiobook listener, so don't hate my spelling)

 

Padan Fain is, without a doubt Ta'veran. Now before your mind travels to the end of MoL and the he was the DO replacement (which could be how it was to end) I'm focusing on Robert's writing, and less of Sandersons last 3 books

 

We all know Fain traveled around the globe searching for something.

Moraine had mentioned that after eventering the two rivers, something was distilled from him and fed back to make him into a hound.

 

Whatever was fed back to him allowed him to narrow his search to three individuals; Mat, Perrin and Rand.

 

What do these 3 have in common? They are all Ta'veran.

 

The DO must have know or assumed that the Dragon would be born a Ta'veran in this age.  So what was distilled from Padan Fain?  THE TA'VERAN PULL

(This is what no one saw, the what was distilled and how it was applied)

 

That Ta'veran pull was what was distilled and fed back to Fain.  It was the only thing what would explain why he could sense those 3, he was hunting for a Ta'veran.

 

(The pattern made 3 of them as a way to safeguard the dragon I imagine)

 

Anyways,

 

The only other time we here the word "pull" mentioned is the Ta'veran to Ta'veran Pull that Mat and Perrin feel towards Rand. Padan fain uses that same word to describe himself towards Rand. (Pull and tugging; which applies to all of them)

 

It was the Ta'veran Pull to Ta'veran Pull that had Fain hunting like a hound.

 

The Ta'veran pull was distilled so strong it Fain it hurt him

 

Now who feels the pull of Ta'veran the strongest? OTHER TA'VERAN

 

RJ is very specific in his wording.

RJ is very clear about balance

 

(There is even a part in in TGH where Rand says he can feeling something Pulling him to Toman Head, he says in Fain in deflection of saying in the pattern. But the word pull is used again. That Ta'veran to Ta'veran Pull maybe?)

 

The first time we hear the word Ta'veran is when Rand is recounting all of the things that happened to hom to Loail. Loail says he must be Ta'veran. Not with that in mind, RJ is all about Balance.

 

How many things did Moraine recount to us about Padan fain? How many thing happened to him? About the same amount that happened to Rand to lead Loial to the conclusion that Rand was Ta'veran

 

The next point. Mordeth. Who meets Mordeth? 3 Ta'veran and 1 other, Padan Fain.

 

Moraine also mentioned that Padan Fain is something new.  Fain as he has the same influence, effect and probability of random chance as a Ta'veran but he isn't one made by the pattern So he is true wild card in the pattern

 

2 big Factors of low probability.

 

The first.

 

His escape, but not necessarily him escaping.

 

The low chance of Mat going to see Fain just before he escaped it was caught tugged at my memory. More so because the timing and the fact that Mat was the only person in Randland to have a piece of shadar logeth and HE WENT TO SEE FAIN RIGHT BEFORE HE ESCAPED.

 

What are the odds? Ta'veran I think.

 

Next when Fain makes it to the white tower.  How lucky was he to have been found by a black Aja? Like how unlikely out of anyone. 

 

We also have the fact that Padan Fain is the only known survivor of the Black wind, which is lucky enough on its own. The more unlikely part of Ta'veran luck was he acquired the one thing he needed to survive right before; Mordeth at Shadar Logoth.

 

Now the Two Rivers.

 

Slayer was sent there to kill Padan Fain, but his plans were thwarted by Perrin and the wolf dream. The one best suited to deal with Slayer.

 

(Side bar, I don't think anyone with he talent to see Ta'veran every came across Fain. But even if they did, I don't know if they could see a shadow one?)

 

Ohh and along all of this Padan Fain had influence enough to manipulate Seanchen, White cloaks and Aes sadai in the white tower.  Not to mention the bonds he broke for Dark friends, Shinarians, Myrddraal and white cloaks to make them follow him.

(By fear or otherwise he still did it)

 

I believe there is more that I'm not thinking of at the moment but it's 3:24am and I should go to bed so I'll finish it with the same end to my post that I made on facebook.

 

The pattern doesn't know what to do with him. He is something that it didn't create yet has the same effect on the pattern, causes change reactions and influence as he goes.

 

He brakes the bonds that hold Myrddraal, Shinarin and white cloaks and make them follow him. 

 

If you just wanna chalk up everything to luck or, by small chance ,or unlikely probability that he survived and managed to do what he did, well that can all be summed up in one word.

 

Ta'veran

[wotfan4472]

The three Ta veren were there to do what they had to. Rand is the big one.

 

If he died, they failed. The other two could not do what he had to do in that struggle, because Mat and Perrin could not channel. It is an ability tied to the soul, with a biological genetic component, and Rand is the only one of the three that had both.

 

Padan Fain was not ta veren himself. He is like Slayer, where he is an interpretation of that ability, but even with Fain, the Pattern directed him in certain situations, like when Rand got stabbed by him. The exact same way Slayer was used by the Pattern.

 

If he had not got stabbed, his two major feats: cleansing saidin, and reforming the prison, would not have happened, and he would not have learned what he needed later to figure it out.

Edited January 14 by wotfan4472

[Sabio]

Alot of Fain's ability was simply being around the dagger for so long.  Anyone who stayed near him too long, like the whitecloaks assigned to him, would get corrupted.  He didn't break DF's bonds, he simply manipulated them.  Most Df's would have no idea he has gone rogue and wouldn't question what he did or said.  Not to mention being terrified of him.  We saw in book 2 the Df's saw Fain as the only protection against the Trollocs.  After you watch a guy murder a fade you sort of quietly follow and don't really challenge him.  Fain isn't a Ta'vern, he just had the misfortune of chasing three of them, so he was going to get pulled into certain situations.  

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

As I remember it, Fain was directed to find those three in particular, he was compelled to, with every waking moment. That is nothing like ta'veren. And the boys weren't ta'veren before Moiraine found them it would stand to reason - the pattern had no need of them and there were no effects visible of three ta'veren as they grew. 

 

Fain has plot armour, and is his dealing with Rand is it far simpler to assume Fain was caught by Rand's ta'veren web than the other way round. Same for Mat. 

 

And the powers Fain has come directly from Mashadar, ta'veren has nothing to do with that. 

 

While I don't suppose that it is impossible that he was ta'veren, I don't think there is anything that really points that way in the books. 

[Asthereal]

I would not be one bit surprised if Padan Fain was indeed ta'veren. Weird stuff happens around him, he gets people to do things they're not normally inclined to do and often when something big is happening, Fain is either involved or at least close by.

 

Cool theory. Has my stamp of approval. 🙂 

[Gary Again]

I also like this theory and it's interesting that evil Ta'veren were never really explored but there was nice dualities set up with a lot of the characters like Slayer being two souls merged being able to move between the real world and dream world physically and people have theorized that Hopper may have merged in some way with Perrin or his hammer allowing him to move between worlds physically. You had Mat able to be impervious to the one power and the gholam as well.Would be interesting if the dark one made a twisted version of a Ta'veren and it does work well with how he was able to track Rand.

 

The DO was also big on corrupting things with turning channelers, his foul taint so corrupting the concept of Ta'veren is interesting. Fain also did have some random crazy luck like being able to get direct access to Seanchan leadership, Whitecloak leadership and the Amerlyn Seat as a crazy begger. I get that over time he could corrupt them but more just getting his foot in the door with such powerful people could be similar to Rand wandering into the royal palace and meeting the entire power structure of Andor. I like the theory and kind of wish it was explored in the book because the idea of an evil Ta'veren is kind of terrifying. Ishy also would be interesting because of the massive impact he was able to have in limited time by striking at the right moment in the right way to create massive consequences for the world over time. 

Edited January 16 by Gary Again

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

This is an interesting concept. Though I think it plays around with one of weak parts of the story - or perhaps I should more rightly say, part of the story I have a hard time getting my head around. 

 

There is no such thing as an evil ta'veren. Or a good one. The pattern is neutral, in balance and cares not for such concepts. And yet, the Heroes of the Horn are bound to the pattern to fight for the Light and the Champion of the Creator. So this means they are to balance the Shadow of the Dark One? The pattern needs a Dragon, to the extent that it throws up False Dragons at a high frequency until the real Dragon appears (why? how could that possibly help? If Rand falls down a flight of stairs and dies as a child, could Mazrim Taim have taken over? What about the Prophecy?) Nearly all parts of the Pattern working appear to be working to the benefit of the Light, despite the philosophical teachings that get in the book. This could be because the Dark One is trying to pervert the Pattern so it is applying a form of homeostasis. 

 

But then it still questions that then the pattern needs the perversion of the Dark One to play out like the Age Lace needs. Which means there never was any danger as the Pattern was in complete control all the time - indeed so long as the Prophecies were fulfilled it shows the Pattern knew exactly what was coming.

 

For Fain, we really have to look at Mordeth. He was the expert in getting into the high end of society and corrupting it. Not something the books really explore, for all we meet Mordeth he reamins more a legend or myth. Though the interesting thing is that he is not a thing of the Dark One - he was an opponent of the Shadow every bit as much as the Dragon was. So is he an instrument of the Pattern? Without him, Rand would have failed. So it was inevitable that all the atrocities that Aridhol committed would happen, all the deaths and suffering at Shadar Logoth, all the people Fain kills and corrupts. Each turning of the Wheel, without fail. 

 

Ishamael is right, there is no escape. The Pattern purposefully chooses to weave in suffering. And the best it has to offer is stop the Dark One remaking the Wheel into his own image.

[JyP]

This matches nicely - Padan Fain would have been a Darkfriend and a traveling merchant for a long time, is then "distilled" in Shayol Ghul and would gain a twisted version of ta'veren powers to be pulled toward the strongest ta'verens around. If I recall correctly he had already rounded his suspicions to Emond's Field 2 or 3 years before EotW ?

 

Afterwards he encounters Mordeth - which could also be seen as a cursed ta'veren, bound to Shadar Logoth - after all the fall of Aridhol was directly his fault - Wonder Twin Powers activates ! Or more accurately, Mordeth would haunt Padan Fain to regain his dagger taken by Mat.

 

Machin Shin would try to destroy Padan Fain's spirit while in the Ways (see the example of an Ogier with no more spirit after an encounter with the Black Wind), but as Padan Fain is already haunted by Mordeth, it only seems to merge the 3 as one unholy horror.

 

Mordeth however has his ta'veren powers geared toward corrupting others - which matches with Padan Fain, a simple hound being tortured by Fades, suddenly being able to gain the upper hand upon Fades and Trollocs...

[Shreeya]

Books have an unparalleled ability to transport readers to different worlds, fostering imagination and expanding perspectives.

[Aan-Alone]

Cool idea but I feel that you seem to be missing the point of or misunderstanding the meaning of... Ta'veren.

 

Who creates Ta'veren? The Pattern. Moreso, the Wheel directs the Pattern to weave a Ta'veren into reality. So Ta'veren are selected by the Fuzzy Logic mechanism that powers/runs all of creation.

 

Why? Simply as a correction mechanism to restore balance to the Pattern. Evil in this context would work against, not for, balance restoration. 

 

To me this implies Ta'veren can't be evil. Had Rand been Turned or otherwise chosen the Shadow, I feel he would have lost being Ta'veren. Same for Mat and Perrin.

[Asthereal]

28 minutes ago, Aan-Alone said:

Cool idea but I feel that you seem to be missing the point of or misunderstanding the meaning of... Ta'veren.

 

Who creates Ta'veren? The Pattern. Moreso, the Wheel directs the Pattern to weave a Ta'veren into reality. So Ta'veren are selected by the Fuzzy Logic mechanism that powers/runs all of creation.

 

Why? Simply as a correction mechanism to restore balance to the Pattern. Evil in this context would work against, not for, balance restoration. 

 

To me this implies Ta'veren can't be evil. Had Rand been Turned or otherwise chosen the Shadow, I feel he would have lost being Ta'veren. Same for Mat and Perrin.

 

The Wheel of Time and its Pattern exist in order to keep the Dark One busy trying, but eternally failing, to escape. At least, that's my reading.

Following from this, as you said, ta'veren are created by (or exist within, depending on your view on creation) the Pattern, in order to make sure certain things happen so that the cycle definitely continues. But in order to keep the evil side hoping for a win, I see no reason why there wouldn't be evil ta'veren making sure their side keeps doing what it's supposed to.

 

But to be fair, this idea leans heavily on my view on how the Wheel and the Pattern work.

[Aan-Alone]

Perhaps the misunderstanding is mine. Your perspective makes sense. I don't like it but your view appears solid given what we've been told.

 

For me, the DO is akin to a sentient form of Entropy. Trying every time is inevitable. Like death and taxes.

To try is it's nature.

 

Other than this, I can't think of a good counter to your perspective.

Maybe this...

I think the Wheel is a re-active mechanism. Not pro-active. To be pro-active, the Wheel would need to 'know' more, which would negate being 'fuzzy'. And the Wheel being 'fuzzy' is important as 'fuzzy' gets you things like Muppets and Free Will and 2nd chances. 'Fuzzy' is alot less certainty, certainly.

 

Enter the Ta'veren. The Wheel's fix-all solution for every unknown problem and/or difficulty. Can come in multiples. Multiples can interact to increase the Ta'veren effect. The effect being to focus the Pattern around the Ta'veren and cause the improbable to become more certain than commonplace events. I don't think the focus is on balance, per se. I think balance is maintained due to an underlying law or rule similar to our 'Law of Conservation".

 

The Ta'veren effect is mostly passive. However, the person who becomes Ta'veren can learn to control the effect. And herein lies the danger to the Pattern. With free will and control of the Ta'veren ability, the Ta'veren person can 'force' the Pattern' Forced to do what they want and/or need. But also force the Pattern into a critically vulnerable state, should they so choose.

 

This is why I think the Wheel doesn't let any Shadow operatives have the Ta'veren ability. It's potentially too dangerous for the Wheel. Someone on the Shadow side, with intellect and a focused will, could bring it all down before the Wheel had time to react. With a quick trip to Finnland, they could find out why they're Ta'veren and thereby circumvent the mechanism that would potentially remove the Ta'veren ability, assuming the Pattern would be using them to steer events.

 

And assuming one could side-srep a Ta'veren-level event and still retain the Ta'veren ability. Mat's first? conversation with the Finn's implies the former is possible. As for the latter, I'm thinking of the pattern topographically and topographical changes need to be 'smooth' for the Maths to play nice. Sudden or abrupt changes can lead to anomalies or discontinuities in the Maths.

 

Based on this perspective, I submit that the change in a person's life thread, from being Ta'veren to not isn't instantaneous. Which suggests an event occurs to set the change in motion. So it seems reasonable that one could side-step the event and retain the ability.

 

Wow! I dug deep for this. But there may be a much simpler explanation, at least regarding why Mr. Fain isn't. 

 

Of the people, mostly or entirely Forsaken, who could track Ta'veren, none ever confused Fain for al'Thor. Or vice-versa. Nor for Cauthon and Aybara. That I can recall at any rate.

[Bugglesley]

I always get a headache like the True Power touching the One Power whenever I think too hard about Ta'varen. He really backs off it in later books, but it feels like it's every 3rd word in the first few (especially when Loial is "on screen" to be like "That's so unlikely! But aha yes mmm Ta'varen").

 

I don't think Fain is one, by the by. He's "something else, something worse," plus Mordeth. Both of those "rulesets" are vague and spooky enough to explain everything he manages to do.

Big picture though I can never decide whether it's RJ's greatest triumph or most embarrassing weak spot that he had the cojones to be like "why yes, the oldest and most powerful magic in my fantasy world, above and beyond any other, is the Magic that Makes the Plot Happen."

Let's be real, at the end of the day that's what any Chosen One is and to have the characters openly engaging with and discussing it opens up, complicates, and puts his own spin on the very classical Man vs Fate conflict that Western literature has been bandying about since the BCEs... but come on.

[Aan-Alone]

19 hours ago, Bugglesley said:

He's "something else, something worse," plus Mordeth.

This is how I comprehend what Fain becomes at the end of the series. For me, Fain becomes an 'Ancient Evil' that gets an upgrade without losing his 'Achilles Heel' weak spot. Very good that Mat was around to save the day, considering the loss of Shadar Logoth after the cleansing.