Referring to Sour as Bitter?

[TravellingIsAGatewayDrug]

While reading through the series the first time, I noticed that characters will sometimes refer to something sour as tasting bitter.

 

That seemed like a weird arbitrary choice, but I thought maybe there was some interesting real-world history on that (like the color orange and such), but a quick search didn't seem to turn up anything.

 

Gang, I humbly ask: What's up with that?

 

(Also, the Peaches being poison is weird. I think people used to think tomatoes were poison so I gave it a pass, but if anyone has more details on that it'd be appreciated)

[wotfan4472]

Sour is not the same taste as bitter is. Coffee tastes bitter. I should know. So did beer when I tasted it.

 

Onions do not have the same reaction in my taste buds that coffee did, and that is the closest thing I can name that is sour. Apart from pears, and oranges. Sour is what everyone says is tangy.

 

Bitter tasting things can only be consumed in small amounts, or people get sick.

Edited October 13, 2023 by wotfan4472

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Reading up on this, as sour and bitter to me are sort of the same thing, I have found out I am wrong. Though much of what you can find on the internet appears to be slightly confused or contradictory.

 

But what I have learned is that sour, is a basic taste that indicates acidity, citrus fruits, vinegar, etc. It tastes acidic and pleasant. Bitter, is a basic taste that indicates base or alkaline, and is perhaps the most sensitive of our tastes as poisons are very often basic. It tastes acidic and unpleasant. So they should be on a very basic level very different, but are both for some reason similar. Perhaps not helped by such things as orange fruit being sour, and orange peel bitter.

 

Peaches I can guess at. Peaches and their close relatives almonds, are poisonous. Or at least their stones are. As are apple seeds. They contain amygdalin, a compound that reacts with hydrochloric acid in your digestive system to produce hydrogen cyanide. But they are not very poisonous. Bitter almonds are the poisonous of the family and are generally treated so that the amygdalin is removed from them, but I think you have to eat a lot to be in danger. Like for apple seeds, about a thousand in a very short period of time. Peach stones probably less. I don't think wild-type peaches are more poisonous, but I guess RJ is just taking in his world peaches still had to be domesticated from a poisonous wild-type. Just in our age we only domesticated apples very recently, and never managed things like acorns, which could have been hugely beneficial to food production in medieval times.  

[Windigo]

18 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Reading up on this, as sour and bitter to me are sort of the same thing, I have found out I am wrong. Though much of what you can find on the internet appears to be slightly confused or contradictory.

 

But what I have learned is that sour, is a basic taste that indicates acidity, citrus fruits, vinegar, etc. It tastes acidic and pleasant. Bitter, is a basic taste that indicates base or alkaline, and is perhaps the most sensitive of our tastes as poisons are very often basic. It tastes acidic and unpleasant. So they should be on a very basic level very different, but are both for some reason similar. Perhaps not helped by such things as orange fruit being sour, and orange peel bitter.

 

Peaches I can guess at. Peaches and their close relatives almonds, are poisonous. Or at least their stones are. As are apple seeds. They contain amygdalin, a compound that reacts with hydrochloric acid in your digestive system to produce hydrogen cyanide. But they are not very poisonous. Bitter almonds are the poisonous of the family and are generally treated so that the amygdalin is removed from them, but I think you have to eat a lot to be in danger. Like for apple seeds, about a thousand in a very short period of time. Peach stones probably less. I don't think wild-type peaches are more poisonous, but I guess RJ is just taking in his world peaches still had to be domesticated from a poisonous wild-type. Just in our age we only domesticated apples very recently, and never managed things like acorns, which could have been hugely beneficial to food production in medieval times.  

Yes historically there is truth to several fruits that were originally poisonous before selective breeding, and still contain poisonous pits/seeds.
Basically though peaches were poisonous in WoT because Robert Jordan decided they should be. 


 

[Windigo]

The Sour Bitter taste receptors genetics is actually very interesting. 
Certain people have extra taste buds that pick up bitter flavors more than other people, while some people do not taste bitter at all.
So while some things may taste just sour to one person, they can taste bitter and not edible to others. 
 

[TravellingIsAGatewayDrug]

7 hours ago, Windigo said:

Yes historically there is truth to several fruits that were originally poisonous before selective breeding, and still contain poisonous pits/seeds.
Basically though peaches were poisonous in WoT because Robert Jordan decided they should be. 


 

Ah, straight from the man himself. That works for me.

 

On 10/15/2023 at 4:22 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Reading up on this, as sour and bitter to me are sort of the same thing, I have found out I am wrong. Though much of what you can find on the internet appears to be slightly confused or contradictory.

My mind is blown. I have never known someone that felt sour and bitter were even close on the flavor spectrum. I learned something today.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

8 hours ago, TravellingIsAGatewayDrug said:

Ah, straight from the man himself. That works for me.

 

My mind is blown. I have never known someone that felt sour and bitter were even close on the flavor spectrum. I learned something today.

It is difficult to explain. They stuff I read characterises both tastes as acidic, which is where the confusion comes from I would say. Vinegar does not taste the same as pure cocoa, for example, to me, but there is a similarity in the acrid acidity, that feeling that makes you narrow your eyes and your tongue to twist and whatever other strange facial movements. 

 

It is an interesting thought that some people (possibly including me) cannot fully taste bitterness, as given it is a basic taste then it should be distinct as salty, sweet, spicy or sour. At least it is the most unpleasant taste, so surely cannot be that much of a loss. 

[Elgee]

57 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

It is an interesting thought that some people (possibly including me) cannot fully taste bitterness, as given it is a basic taste then it should be distinct as salty, sweet, spicy or sour. At least it is the most unpleasant taste, so surely cannot be that much of a loss. 

 

To me the 2 things are totally unalike. And bitter is not necessarily unpleasant - I like my chocolate very dark, for instance. Lemons, on the other hand, not so much. Except in small doses in something else.