Faile's character

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Arising from discussion about the show.

 

I was thinking that Faile's character, in particular her demand that Perrin act in the way she wants him to, without telling him what that is, is actually a male conceit. It takes the cliche of male partners not knowing why their female partners are angry or upset, and instead of showing this from the male point of view where Perrin is baffled by Faile's behaviour, the story doubles down on showing that Perrin has done nothing wrong, by also showing from Faile's point of view that she knows he has done nothing wrong and in as much takes full responsibility for her behaviour and the situation as a whole. 

 

And this male fantasy, absolves men who through emotional distance or insensitivity cause emotional pain to their partners. Because some women are inherently irrational. That want one thing but say another. And men should never be able to understand that if they forget a birthday or anniversary, and their partner says it is ok, these things happen, then they miss a family dinner because they work late, but that is ok, work is important, and then they cancel a trip away together because their friend can make it to a golfing holiday and you know how difficult it is for Bob to get time off work, and then the woman is for absolutely no reason at all upset. And why? How can any man understand these hormonal psychopaths? Now of course in such a situation there should be a real talk about why the relationship is always being put in second place. Communication is key. But it is also easy to see how when all the problems are symptoms of the male simply not caring/trying, that such a discussion could be daunting, especially if the man being detail obsessed refuses to see a pattern and instead tries to make it into a series of unrelated instances over which the female is over-reacting, and if she is like this all the time, is there any surprise in the fact that he wants to go golfing? The poor guy.

 

So Faile is a construct that lets guys act like jerks, while remaining completely sure that any pain to their partners is caused by the inherent irrationality and contrariness of women in general. 

 

Or am I thinking too hard about this?

[Guire]

1 hour ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Arising from discussion about the show.

 

I was thinking that Faile's character, in particular her demand that Perrin act in the way she wants him to, without telling him what that is, is actually a male conceit. It takes the cliche of male partners not knowing why their female partners are angry or upset, and instead of showing this from the male point of view where Perrin is baffled by Faile's behaviour, the story doubles down on showing that Perrin has done nothing wrong, by also showing from Faile's point of view that she knows he has done nothing wrong and in as much takes full responsibility for her behaviour and the situation as a whole. 

 

And this male fantasy, absolves men who through emotional distance or insensitivity cause emotional pain to their partners. Because some women are inherently irrational. That want one thing but say another. And men should never be able to understand that if they forget a birthday or anniversary, and their partner says it is ok, these things happen, then they miss a family dinner because they work late, but that is ok, work is important, and then they cancel a trip away together because their friend can make it to a golfing holiday and you know how difficult it is for Bob to get time off work, and then the woman is for absolutely no reason at all upset. And why? How can any man understand these hormonal psychopaths? Now of course in such a situation there should be a real talk about why the relationship is always being put in second place. Communication is key. But it is also easy to see how when all the problems are symptoms of the male simply not caring/trying, that such a discussion could be daunting, especially if the man being detail obsessed refuses to see a pattern and instead tries to make it into a series of unrelated instances over which the female is over-reacting, and if she is like this all the time, is there any surprise in the fact that he wants to go golfing? The poor guy.

 

So Faile is a construct that lets guys act like jerks, while remaining completely sure that any pain to their partners is caused by the inherent irrationality and contrariness of women in general. 

 

Or am I thinking too hard about this?

I think you are over exaggerating the situation to make a really specific point about men.  A better question would be how many female readers either identified with or knew someone like Faile and didn't find them a bad person. Saldean culture had very specific gender roles and scripts.  Faile was always strongly in love and commited to Perrin but was confounded by his behavior that didn't match how men she admired growing up acted.  Basically both of them had to gain relationship experience and operate within their partners expectations.

 

Also I never perceived Faile as an excuse for any kind oof bad behavior.  Perrin was not distant partner.  Faile was not a shrew.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Guire

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Certainly I could be over-reacting, and you are most certainly right that the female perspective would be enlightening.

 

But I have never been able to understand the way that Faile acted. It seemed so deliberate. I get at the beginning, she is a bit stand-offish. Then he tries to leave her behind to go kill himself, so I understand where here competitiveness comes from. But then comes the spanking,  now ok, not sure that is really appropriate for the story, but well, sure. 

 

Then she is outright cruel and mean to Perrin, for no good reason. I could never get the motivation. And then the whole argument with Berelain, she had no problems speaking frankly with Berelain, and yet refused to speak to Perrin about it. But did happily punish him, even though she knew that he had done no wrong.

 

I did not and do not understand. The OP is my attempt to make some sense of it. 

[Guire]

I think most of this is cultural differences.  Saldea is borderlands.  A martial culture like Aiel where physical punishmant is a norm.  If you have never been immersed in a culture like that then I can see where the spanking and cruelty may seem like the traits of a horrific person.  The spanking to me is an RJ thing stemming from attending a military school and being in vietnam era army.  I was in military during transition from old scholl to less physical correction.  In late 90s I was a medic in a joint international operation.  The british soldiers still acted like they were getting their asses beat as punishment.  Their SgtMajor carried a stick and acted like EoTW Nyn.

 

From my perspective Faile knew Perrin could handle it and she wanted him to behave as she saw proper.  A juvenile but not unheard human failing.  In the army when we did pushups constantly for infractions we didnt know we broke , there was a turning point in training.  Once we understood the expectations when we  made a mistake we would drop  as a group even if the fault was beyonf our control.  It was embracing the suck.  It also enpowered us and made the drill sgts proud.  We were always going to make mistakes or fail but you still payed the price and had the dignity to face it.  I think that was Faile's position with Perrin punishing her.  By not following her cultural rules he was devalueing her and perceiving her as weak.

[Scarloc99]

I think the first really key thing that we all need to remember about Faile is her age, there is some debate over this, if you take the book as canon then at book start and when she meets Perrin she is 14/15 years old, when they marry she is 15/16. Now supposedly RJ stated this was an oversight (not seen the exact quote or when he said that) and said she was in fact closer in age to Perrin, but even if that is the case you have 2 characters who in terms of emotional and physical experience with the opposite sex are basically the equivalent to being 14/15 years old. So yes they make mistakes, but they love each other, unconditionally (which is obvious because they both do things to annoy the other).

 

Perin's failure is not showing Faile he loves her other then telling her now and again while also then pushing her away emotionally, hiding things from her and generally being aloof and distant. Faile's reaction to this is to get angry, which is not surprising, add into this cultural differences and you have a situation that is going to need work and time. It is telling that when Perrin finally fully opens up to Faile and she to him that is when they become a unit. It is almost as if the moral of that story is don't keep things from your other half, and let them share every burden and issue you have, but to get there the characters had there own journey to take, with lessons and learnings and a bit of a character arc. This si why I say it is the most realistic relationship written in WOT, and in many ways Faile is the most realistic female character in terms of her emotions and how she reacts to things, because we see the 2 characters change and grow and impact each other. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Thanks for your input, it is an interesting perspective. Though age, I think we can see as irrelevant, otherwise we are getting into the area of statutory rape and I don't think that was ever the intention. I think we can safely assume that however young they are, they are sufficiently emotionally developed to have a serious relationship. The alternative does not bear thinking about.

 

However it still seems that the people who are speaking in Faile's defense, as it were, are ignoring that Faile deliberately punished Perrin even though she knew that he had done nothing wrong. Like with Berelain, the situation could make sense from Perrin's point of view, that he is trying to navigate a difficult situation and yet Faile is jealous/hurt despite his best intentions. But we also see it from her perspective, where she knows that Perrin is completely faithful and true, yet continues victimize him anyway. That she fully understands the culture clash, understands simple honest Perrin (so manly 🙂 ), yet does not inform him about anything in her head while continuing to be outright cruel to him. It is not a case of poor communication, Perrin lays his cards openly on the table. Faile refuses to do so, and despite knowing exactly how things are, and takes it out on Perrin. 

 

That is why it seems to me to be such a male perspective. It's like we see that Perrin is confused, he is trying to be honest and a loving partner, trying to give Faile what she wants. But the communication is difficult, true to life, emotions confuse things, and up to this point it all seems believable. But then we see Faile, and there is no other side of the story. She sees it exactly the same as Perrin does, that he is honest and well-meaning, and she is contrary and cruel. There is no confusion, no difference in perspective, no misunderstandings. Faile is just Perrin's perspective reversed.

 

So that why, in my little theory, I can see why to some men Faile could appear relatable, as presumably she did to RJ. But it would also be the reason why no woman would ever connect to Faile, not on this issue - obviously there is more to her character than this one aspect.

[Scarloc99]

42 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Thanks for your input, it is an interesting perspective. Though age, I think we can see as irrelevant, otherwise we are getting into the area of statutory rape and I don't think that was ever the intention. I think we can safely assume that however young they are, they are sufficiently emotionally developed to have a serious relationship. The alternative does not bear thinking about.

 

However it still seems that the people who are speaking in Faile's defense, as it were, are ignoring that Faile deliberately punished Perrin even though she knew that he had done nothing wrong. Like with Berelain, the situation could make sense from Perrin's point of view, that he is trying to navigate a difficult situation and yet Faile is jealous/hurt despite his best intentions. But we also see it from her perspective, where she knows that Perrin is completely faithful and true, yet continues victimize him anyway. That she fully understands the culture clash, understands simple honest Perrin (so manly 🙂 ), yet does not inform him about anything in her head while continuing to be outright cruel to him. It is not a case of poor communication, Perrin lays his cards openly on the table. Faile refuses to do so, and despite knowing exactly how things are, and takes it out on Perrin. 

 

That is why it seems to me to be such a male perspective. It's like we see that Perrin is confused, he is trying to be honest and a loving partner, trying to give Faile what she wants. But the communication is difficult, true to life, emotions confuse things, and up to this point it all seems believable. But then we see Faile, and there is no other side of the story. She sees it exactly the same as Perrin does, that he is honest and well-meaning, and she is contrary and cruel. There is no confusion, no difference in perspective, no misunderstandings. Faile is just Perrin's perspective reversed.

 

So that why, in my little theory, I can see why to some men Faile could appear relatable, as presumably she did to RJ. But it would also be the reason why no woman would ever connect to Faile, not on this issue - obviously there is more to her character than this one aspect.

But Perrin did do something wrong, he was insipid and weak in how he rejected Berelain right through the books, at no point did he plainly say "this is never happening I love Faile" he avoided her, dodged her, ignored her kept telling Faile it was in her head (not in so many words but through his actions), and just refused to put an end to it, until it was to late and he was alone in her tent, and even then he was to distracted to put an end to the rumours. 

 

If I had a women all over me like B was, and I acted the way Perrin did then I would expect my wife to be as angry at me as she is at her because through my actions I am almost encouraging it, and this is where the age thing does come in, if you assume Faile is 20 to take away the ick I have yet to meet many 20yo's who are emotionally mature when it comes to relationships, and many 20yo's would react in this same way to someone hitting on their partner (male or female) and their partner not reacting in what they see as the correct way. 

 

The theme of the book is based on the idea that 5 young people have to grow up and mature beyond their years far faster then they should, so you should not assume that Perrin is worldly and experienced beyond his years when it comes to how to "handle" a women. 

Now I expect show Perrin to be different because he has been married, I also expect him to be submissive and not get angry for the very real reason that he killed his wife and will always be scared he physically hurts any future wife so will be reluctant to be drawn into any argument. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Scarloc99

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Well, obviously we see things differently. For example, in the books Perrin outright rejects Berelain, and only avoids her due to her persistence. And Faile is also shown that she knows that Perrin is not encouraging it, enjoying it and taking part, so there is no question that she is misunderstanding Perrin's behaviour or considering it suspect. If anything books suggest that Faile is jealous that Perrin will stand up to Berelain, but not to her, which makes no sense as he is not standing up to her but treating her as an unwanted annoyance so seems stretching believability. That is the crux of my problem with Faile, it is not that Perrin is trying to fend off Berelain and Faile misunderstands, it is that the books shows that she does not misunderstand, yet punishes Perrin anyway, as if she had.

 

But anyway, thanks again for your perspective. Though I feel you are reading things into the book which are not there while ignoring other parts that are. No doubt, you feel something similar about me 🙂 It is interesting how people have different takes on so many aspects of the books. 

[Gary Again]

I think in my later rereads I started realizing it doesn't really have much to do with Perrin at all he's just catching strays between two hard headed women going to war. Faile is over protective and basically every female friend of Perrin's gets the 3rd degree from Faile when they meet and none of them really like it. You hear Min complain about it to Rand when Faile does it to her and I believe Egwene and Elayne as well but they are all pretty easy going so it ends there. She tries the same thing with Berelain but Faile takes it to an extreme with her getting into a physical fight and embarrassing her in front of Ruarc and Berelain basically in that moment promises to torment Faile endlessly because of it and throughout the books she is true to her word. Faile finally crossed the one woman petty enough and with the weapons to make her pay for messing with her. I don't even think Berelain really thinks she has a chance with Perrin after a while she knows he's faithful as he's as obvious about that as he can possibly be she is just tweaking Faile at every chance she has. 

 

I think the part that bothered Faile about Perrin (and I think she even said this in the books) was the more he denied that anything was going on and the more vehement he was about it the more he added weight to whatever BS Berelain was trying to pull. Once he started ignoring Berelain, Faile was able to ignore it and things improved. I think the part about Perrin just feeling like a victim in an unpredictable situation was that he was exactly that and by reacting to things and trying to fix it (because that's Perrin's thing) he was just making it worse. Berelain fully realized this and weaponized it until Perrin figured it out. Also I feel like a lot of the challenges Perrin faced were puzzles, I think this was a big puzzle he had to think through and the other was the Shaido and they were call backs to the blacksmith puzzles Perrin was always talking about.

 

 

[Scarloc99]

52 minutes ago, Gary Again said:

I think in my later rereads I started realizing it doesn't really have much to do with Perrin at all he's just catching strays between two hard headed women going to war. Faile is over protective and basically every female friend of Perrin's gets the 3rd degree from Faile when they meet and none of them really like it. You hear Min complain about it to Rand when Faile does it to her and I believe Egwene and Elayne as well but they are all pretty easy going so it ends there. She tries the same thing with Berelain but Faile takes it to an extreme with her getting into a physical fight and embarrassing her in front of Ruarc and Berelain basically in that moment promises to torment Faile endlessly because of it and throughout the books she is true to her word. Faile finally crossed the one woman petty enough and with the weapons to make her pay for messing with her. I don't even think Berelain really thinks she has a chance with Perrin after a while she knows he's faithful as he's as obvious about that as he can possibly be she is just tweaking Faile at every chance she has. 

 

I think the part that bothered Faile about Perrin (and I think she even said this in the books) was the more he denied that anything was going on and the more vehement he was about it the more he added weight to whatever BS Berelain was trying to pull. Once he started ignoring Berelain, Faile was able to ignore it and things improved. I think the part about Perrin just feeling like a victim in an unpredictable situation was that he was exactly that and by reacting to things and trying to fix it (because that's Perrin's thing) he was just making it worse. Berelain fully realized this and weaponized it until Perrin figured it out. Also I feel like a lot of the challenges Perrin faced were puzzles, I think this was a big puzzle he had to think through and the other was the Shaido and they were call backs to the blacksmith puzzles Perrin was always talking about.

 

 

Oh no Berelain thinks she has a chance, she also thinks Rand has given her Perrin, she tells Faile that herself, it is not until Faile is rescued that Berelain finally gives up on Perrin, although I think the slightest hint and she would have been back there. 

I mean there are alot of Perrins behaviours that today might be classed as being on the Autism/Asperges spectrum. His emotional intelligence is off, he thinks logically and struggles with emotion. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Scarloc99

[Bugglesley]

I think there are two things going on.

 

In universe: Faile's behavior is childish and inexcusable. If, as some defenders claim, she's angry that Perrin's behavior is still leading Berelain on because he doesn't know how to actually signal he's not interested.. then she could, I dunno, tell him that so that he knows how to signal he's not interested. Instead, she throws tantrums, "you know what you did"s, etc. Her PoV chapters make it really clear that she knows he's a backwards farmboy! It's the core of their dynamic! And yet this backwards farmboy, who clearly and repeatedly relies on her for all other social cues and court behaviors, is just supposed to know the baffling and contradictory rules of high court flirting and it's totally justified to constantly emotionally abuse him about it? In the hopes that he shouts back...?? And then, older and wiser characters (Bashere and Elyas especially) sweep in to say "oh ya, that's how Saldaean broads are, just be toxic back lmao you'll figure it out."

 

Count me on the side that Berelain's continued actions are out of pure spite, regardless of whether she has a chance or not. She's a savvy political operator, the definition of a "sex is a weapon" character, and she couldn't beat Faile with fists so she's using the weapons she has. It's petty but if there's a single unifying theme of the WoT it's that human pettiness is the single strongest force in the entire world. Easily 9 out of 13 Forsaken turned out of pettiness. Multiple characters have a literal choice between being living and being petty and they ride right to their deaths. No doubt in my mind; her actions are pettier than an Ebou Dari dress, sown up the side to display colorful layered petticoats (and with an oval cut-out revealing ample bosom obvs).

 

Out of universe: To me this isn't so much a male perspective as a patriarchal one. I have absolutely met women who have 100% internalized the things that women in WoT PoV chapters think and how they act; "men are dumb and women are crazy" is a crowd-pleasing standup trope for a reason.  The number of romantic comedies or romance novels that have characters as toxic as Faile (or more!) who demand (and eventually receive) a partner who knows their wants and needs, based simply on "understanding," without any of that pesky "communication" stuff (which does, in fact, involve trusting said partner to ignore frequent and vociferous lies about their wants and needs in favor of what they know they are) is... uh.. it's common!

 

If anything I think RJ deserves a lot of credit for really realistically digging into that dynamic and how frustrating and harmful it is. On the other hand, despite and along with that sensitivity, the narrative ends up being deeply ("small-c") conservative. "Yes, these oppressive systems are incredibly flawed and challenging, here are all the ways they're broken. However, ultimately, we all just have to change ourselves and suffer to fit in them because the alternative is chaos and that's much worse." This isn't unique; any description of what's happening around the prophet tends to veer into lightly warmed-over frothing anticommunism, Rand's narrative arc from the perspective of leadership is not "how to not be a tyrant" but "how to be a tyrant correctly." The nobility more broadly is dunked on endlessly for their asinine behavior throughout the series, yet Perrin's leadership arc is how he needs to grow up and accept that the Two Rivers requires a Lord, the people want and need a Lord, and he needs to stop skirting his responsibility to act as if he's a priori better than everyone else, live better than everyone else, and have more power than everyone else. He just has to do it correctly, unlike that oily stuffed popinjay Wieremon. The system doesn't make sense and it isn't fair but Light! It's the system!

 

Really, to me, that's the most frustrating thing about Perrin/Faile. It's not that their relationship is toxic, it's not that it drags on forever, it's that the "solution" that RJ presents us with (and BS carries forward) is for them each to correctly play their roles in the toxic dynamic.  They are simply coming to terms "with reality," instead of, as the modern reader might prefer, concluding that these roles are determined by people and can be changed by people, and might not be right for the only 2 people with any right to say what the rules are in their own relationship.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Bugglesley