Cadsuane's Sisters

[cloglord]

My assesment is not that the tower will not easily be stronger than it has been in recent time, in fact that would be a foolish point to argue, though, I'm not sure what 'practice' the new novices have been getting in linking, unless you are implying that the planned circles in case of forsaken attack are practice.  Even if this is what you are refering to, I have seen no evidence of the novices practicing linking, just a plan by sisters that to my knowledge has only been enacted once.

 

The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever...

 

Elaida ACoS Prolouge

 

The argument that I have here has nothing to do with whether the tower would be stronger than it had been in recent years, my argument is centered around Elaid'a use of the word 'ever' in her foretelling.  'Ever' and 'whole' are absolute terms, and an absolute term has no room for subjective rationale. In order for the tower to be whole, requires all current sisters, (except those Elaida foretold to be cast out and scorned,)  to be a part of the solution, not just the ones that have held themselves apart, but the 3% of sisters that have sworn to Rand, and the 5% that have been bonded to ashaman as well.  In order for the tower to be stronger than ever, it needs to match the numbers and abilities found at the tower's pinnacle, before the trolloc wars, and exceed it.  The knowledge of the recovered weaves from the AoL certainly would make the tower stronger in terms of its channeling abilities, and the addition of all the new novices and the kin would certainly make the tower stronger in terms of its numbers.  However, these two things do nothing to make the tower 'whole.'  To fulfill the foretelling that Elaida had, would require the retun of all sisters, to make it whole, AND the addition of the new channelers and weaves picked up by Egwene, to make it stronger than ever.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Given the stipulations you place on it (and they are yours, not the words') the Fortelling I predict that the Fortelling won't be fulfilled until after Tarmon Gaidon.  What you're saying is that if even one sister is holding out, or even just not aware (like maybe some of the ones that have are now damane), then it doesn't count. 

 

In truth, I think you're plain wrong.  "Ever" doesn't have to mean "at any point in the history of the Tower".  It can mean "ever" in Elaida's lifetime.  "Whole" can mean that there are no other signifigant factions, it doesn't have to mean that every single sister is gathered in.  In fact, it has to, because of the exceptions you yourself cited (supported also by Egwene's Dream in CoT ch 20 ).  In other words, we know there are exceptions ... you just want to pick the ones that make your theory work.

 

If every Sister currently alive was gathered in, plus the new novices and the Kin, I doubt the Tower would match its numbers from before the Trolloc Wars.  We know from RJ that the percentage of the population that can channel has been falling, and the total population has been falling too.  A smaller percentage of a smaller number just doesn't cut it.  And they certainly don't match the average skill of a Sister in those days, or the political power the Tower had in that time. 

 

The best days of the Tower are behind it, period.  When Elaida says "whole and stronger than ever" she is referring directly to the split.  The two factions reunited into one "whole", and stronger than the Tower was before the split (indeed, "ever" in her experience).  The words can be used in other than the "absolute" ways you need to support your theory.

[Lord Beric]

While we're on the tangent of Elaida's Fortelling, keep in mind that there is another way entirely that it could be interpreted, one that would have little if anything to do with strength of numbers or strength in the Power.

 

Take a look at how Elaida herself looks at the position of the White Tower; that it should be the foremost political power in the world, ordering nations and rulers to do its bidding.  Evidence of this view includes her train of thought while looking at the clock in her rooms (commissioned by an Amyrlin several hundred years ago, hearkening back to the pre-Bonwhin "glory days"), her plan to kidnap Mattin Stepaneos, as well as pretty much any time she thinks about this very Fortelling.

 

So, if we're looking at Elaida's own interpretations, then it would seem that the Fortelling refers to a rise in the Tower's influence in world events in the post-Unification time period.  Likely this would be a post-TG occurance, or, perhaps, take place in a period between Unification and the Last Battle (though the amount of time left seems to preclude that option).

[cloglord]

Given the stipulations you place on it (and they are yours, not the words')

 

Are you speaking for everyone now?

 

What you're saying is that if even one sister is holding out, or even just not aware (like maybe some of the ones that have are now damane), then it doesn't count.

 

Or just for me?

 

I am not saying that even one hold out ruins the deal, I am saying that the tower must be whole, which means that every signifigant portion of the tower's former strength must be a part of the solution, with the exception of the few that are cast out and scorned, as is directly from the foetelling.  It does not say that it will be whole, except for a few that are cast out and scorned, AND those who haven't been notified, AND those taken captive by the seanchan, AND the other third of the aes sedai who haven't picked sides.  It states an absolute term and then immeadiately gives the only exception.  Only a few, who are cast out and scorned are excepted.  So yes, every other sister including those taken captive by the seanchan will have to be a part of the tower in order to fulfill this prophecy.  HOwever, the prophecy does not dictate what role they need to play, merely that they remain a part of the tower.  As we have seen, many outside groups can be part of the tower.  The Kin are an excellent example, the warders, including the bonded ashamen are another good example of being a part of the tower.  Is it too hard to believe that the seanchan will make some sort of connection  to the tower as well?  Considering that just such a connection seems to be fated, I don't think its too far of a stretch.

 

Egwene's dream from ACOS Ch. 10

 

A golden female hawk touches her and they are tied together

 

CoT Ch. 20 has Egwene dreaming about recieving aid from a seanchan woman who ofers to help them "reach the top together."

 

TDR Ch. 48 Another Egwene dream

 

Rand confronting her, and the women with her, and one of them was a Seanchan. 

 

Or how about Min's viewing of Carlyina from TFoH Ch 26?

 

an image of a raven floating beside her dark hair; more a drawing of the bird than the bird itself. She thought it was a tattoo, but she did not know its meaning.

 

There certainly appears to be a connection between the seanchan and the tower in the works, it certainly seems likely that some sort of arrangement will be worked out.  Seanchan captives will be a part of the tower, like the kin will be, like the ashaman will be, like the windfinders will be, like the wiseones will be, there are connections, alliances, that are about to be formed, every sister, except for those cast out and scorned will be a part of this new tower.  If the tower is connected to every channelers there is, I'd certainly say that it would be stronger than it was even in the height of its history.

 

"Whole" and "ever" are absolute terms that exist in a subjective world, but just because you want to define them in terms of elaida's lifetime, does not make you right.  Even if you wish to define "whole" as some what less than whole, you can't define a full third of the sisters being unaligned as "Whole."  I wholeheartedly disagree with your assesment that once the split is fixed, then those 300+ sisters are instantaneously and immeadiately part of this wholer and stronger tower.  Presumably, if they really are under no direction, they are randomly scattered throughout Randland, pursuing their own personal goals, For the purposes of the 'stronger' argument, such a situation would be untenable, as a full third of the tower trained channelers would be dispersed and ineffective.  You can make the claim that the new novices make up for that, but you only have to look at Dumai's wells to see the difference between tower training, and non-tower training when it comes down to it.

 

   

In other words, we know there are exceptions ... you just want to pick the ones that make your theory work.

  This is flat out disingenuous.  I cited the exception, the only exception made in that prophecy.  The exceptions that you want us to see are of your own making.  Frankly, I resent the implication that I am cherry picking, when I made a point to cite the ONLY exception, an exception that could concievably weaken my argument.  I pointed it out, I made my argument, based on what was there, not what I wanted to be there.

 

If every Sister currently alive was gathered in, plus the new novices and the Kin, I doubt the Tower would match its numbers from before the Trolloc Wars.  We know from RJ that the percentage of the population that can channel has been falling, and the total population has been falling too.  A smaller percentage of a smaller number just doesn't cut it.  And they certainly don't match the average skill of a Sister in those days, or the political power the Tower had in that time.

 

 

First, it seems clear from Egwene's POV in KoD's that the inclusion of only the new novices would require the second kitchen to be opened, and that the novices would have to eat in shifts, if you add in the kin, it seems likely that in sheer numbers it WOULD come close to matching the height of the tower.  Second, While it is true that RJ has said that the percentage of a percentage is getting smaller, we also now that the tower has never allowed novices much past the age of 18 and has never gone actively recruiting.  Both of these traditions are now changed, and there is a much greater rate of recruitment of a slightley smaller pool of channelers.  Third, sisters of the current time period ARE more skilled channelers than their Trolloc War contemporaries.  Sisters of this age have mastered traveling, the making of ter angreal, the AoL methods of healing, the making of Cuinellar, inversion of weaves, and countless other things reclaimed from the time of the AoL.  Lastly, the tower, under egwene, would be the most politically powerful tower ever, as she is the shildhood friend of the dragon reborn, ruler of the known world.  Further, as I pointed out earlier, it seems likely that the alliances in the making, but at the very least the ones between the tower and the ashaman, the tower and the Seanchan, and the tower and the Aiel, would certainly qualify the tower, under Egwene, as a VERY influential player in world politics.

 

The words can be used in other than the "absolute" ways you need to support your theory.

 

You are absolutely correct, they can be used in another way, the incorrect way.  It has nothing to do with supporting my theory, ever means ever, whole means whole, and wrong means wrong.  Spin it how you want. 

 

ever

Main Entry: ev·er

Pronunciation: 'e-v&r

Function: adverb

Etymology: Middle English, from Old English [AE]fre

1 : ALWAYS <ever striving to improve> <the ever-increasing population>

2 a : at any time <more than ever before> b : in any way <how can I ever thank you>

 

From Miriam-Webster (Emphasis mine)

[Cadsuane]

While in most of the rest of this thread, I agree with Robert, with respect to the tower being whole, I agree with Cloglord that the tower "stronger than ever" means just that. To me, "ever" means ever. Period. Not "ever...except not really".

 

Also, I feel like Egwene has been set up by RJ to become a legendary Amyrlin, and I think the resolution of that requires her to do more than just bring the rebels back into the official Tower or rediscover a handful of lost talents. Yes, those are noteworthy accomplishments, but it would be much more RJ's style, and much more TG-level momentous if she also linked the Kin and/or Windfinders and/or Wise Ones, etc to the tower, as well as having brought in novices of all ages. Not to mention the possibility that the BT will be joining the WT in some respect as well.  We spend KoD watching her strength and choices change the whole atmosphere of the Tower, I wouldn't be surprised if that continues on, to make the tower "whole and stronger than ever".

 

In terms of Caddy's involvement in all this, I think when it's all done, she'll give Egwene an approving nod. Perhaps in the meantime she'll give a spare order or two that will end up helping Egwene, and whatever she teaches the asha'man may also help Egwene, but she won't make some organized, concerted effort to do anything regarding the White Tower, as she is concentrating on Rand.

[RobertAlexWillis]

OK.  As usual, we disagree.  I guess we'll wait and see.

[Hero of Satsuma]

The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever...

 

I always took this to mean....

 

The White Tower will be whole again - the split will be mended.

 

except for remnants cast out and scorned - aside from the obvious (Elaida) I thought the remnants were the BA

 

whole and stronger than ever... - stronger than ever because the BA has been rooted out of Tower

[cloglord]

Hero, good point, that the rooting out of a corrupting influence would effectively make the tower stronger, I'm not sure how this fits into being whole.  I suppose an argument could be made that because the BA Sisters foreswore the oaths that make Aes Sedai part of the tower, that they are no longer a part of the tower, or I suppose you could make the argument that the BA apparently didn't exist until the Trolloc Wars, and "whole" is in reference to that time.  Either works, or you could take the POV of Robert and say that "whole' is only in reference to the pre-split tower, but i'd have to disagree with you, just like I am fated to disagree with Robert.

 

Cadsuane,

 

Thanks for the half a vote of support, sometimes it makes me pretty lonely being the only one who is right. :)

 

Robert,

 

Don't take this as an attempt to goad you, because it is not.  I understand that it seems like we never agree on anything, but I do enjoy debating these things with you.  I understand if you are tired of this, but please don't give it up with the thought that it is unproductive, embittered, or argument for the sake of argument.  I really am interested in hearing your refutation of the points I made in my last post.  I think that they are valid reasons to consider an AMoL tower to be more than a match for the White tower at its apex.  I understand if you are done though.

[lou]

i think you are both right, each in part.

i think "ever" does in fact mean "ever"

the tower wasnt constructed during the age of LTT, so in tower history there were never men/women doing great works together, now there will be.

i dont believe the seanchan damane or sul'dam to be signifigant in the reunification, the brainwash has too many generations to work out overnight.

the kin will change everything in the tower, there will no longer be an age limitation, giving the tower hundreds more than it would have had otherwise.

keep in mind that the tower was not constructed until after the breaking, the fortelling is not "aes sedai will be whole" it is "the tower will be whole".....

[RobertAlexWillis]

Don't take this as an attempt to goad you, because it is not.  I understand that it seems like we never agree on anything, but I do enjoy debating these things with you.  I understand if you are tired of this, but please don't give it up with the thought that it is unproductive, embittered, or argument for the sake of argument.  I really am interested in hearing your refutation of the points I made in my last post.  I think that they are valid reasons to consider an AMoL tower to be more than a match for the White tower at its apex.  I understand if you are done though.

 

Oh, I'm not mad, but we are kind of going in circles here.  There are many, many ways to define strength, and many time frames that could be placed on the word "ever".  Hero of Satsuma made an excellent point that the Black Ajah has been a poison in the Tower since its seeming apex during the Trolloc Wars ... a valid argument could be made that removing that poison from within the Tower would, in and of itself, make the Tower stronger than it has "ever" been.

 

We don't have solid numbers on the Tower at the time of the Trolloc Wars.  We don't really have a good grasp on all the things that were lost, and when, specifically, they were lost.  So I don't know that we can draw a line and say "This is when the Tower was strongest".  I assumed that it was the just before the Trolloc Wars, but arguments could be made, with valid points, for the period just before Hawkwing (greatest extent of land controlled), within a few hundred years of its founding (probably the peak of skill in the Power, since some AoL records would still have been available).  It depends on how you define "strength".

 

Those things are much easier to define within the scope of people living in the books.  The number of channelers, the rediscovery of weaves, the addition of new Sisters much stronger in the Power, all these things will combine to make the reunified Tower under Egwene al'Vere the strongest in living memory.  To me, that satisfies the Fortelling just fine.  So, what we have is a difference of opinion in the realm of definition of terms, and, that being the case, we won't resolve it through discussion.

 

Then too, there is the fact that nothing in Elaida's Fortelling said it all had to be completely fulfilled before Tarmon Gaidon.  I just don't think that either Rand or the Shadow are going to sit around and wait the months that I think it would take to gather up all the scattered Sisters.  The Tower has always been a loose organization of mostly independent Sisters, many of whom barely see Tar Valon at all after they're raised.

 

And here's the thing, cloglord ... I firmly believe that the post Tarmon Gaidon Tower could be "stonger" than the Tower at any previous time in history.  I just don't think that HAS to be the case to fulfill Elaida's Fortelling.

 

As a final note ... we don't disagree on everything cloglord.  We just don't spend pages and pages discussing what we agree on, so it looks that way.