Tolkien and Wheel of Time - Advanced Theory

[Rhaegar Targaryen]

Now, I have mentioned a lot of the times that Tolkien's Legendarium and Jordan's Wheel of Time dovetail very, very well when you let your mind work around it a bit.

General View

Entire story of the Pattern, and all its ages and turnings, happen long after the War of the Ring and the War of Wrath: Morgoth was banished into the Void, and Sauron with him, along with many fallen Maiar. 

After that, Eru the Creator changed the passage of time on Arda so that it is cyclical and that Morgoth could never escape the Void. From age to age, he manages to make a bore in his prison and reaches the world of humanity, who call him Shai'tan and the Dark One. Sauron walks freely in the form of a  Myrddraal who the Forsaken and the Shadowspawn obey in all things, and, of course, bears a particularly telling name "Hand of the Dark" - Shaidar Haran.

Morgoth's Servants

 

Quote

The Dark One and all the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul, bound by the Creator at the moment of creation.

This is a well-known cathecism. So the main thing in it is that Shai'tan was imprisoned together with his servants from the beginning. As we know, this can't possibly be true about the Forsaken. But maybe this is not false on itself and based on a memory that the Dark One really was imprisoned with his great servants from the beginnng - those servants are vastly more horrible than the Forsaken: Sauron, Balrogs and all other fallen Maiar.

Mashadar and Machin Shin

Then we have two entities said to be distinct from the Dark One, yet are clearly forces of evil in Wheel of Time: Machin Shin and Mashadar.

For those two I propose this:

1. Mashadar is none other than Ungoliant. We know Mashadar devours everything in its way and that is exactly what Ungoliant cared about. She served Morgoth for a time, but eventually went on to serve her own gluttony. Tolkien mentions that some believe that she eventually devoured herself. It is possible her spirit remained, unable to take physical form, but still driven by hunger, brought to an almost bestial state of mind. (This would mean people of Aridhol didn't create Mashadar, though - they merely awakened Ungoliant somehow). This also offers a parallel for Padan Fain - Gollum was always bringing victims to Shelob, Ungoliant's daughter, so maybe Ungoliant later on chose Fain as her own Gollum who would bring her supplies on which she could feed herself.

 

 

2. Machin Shin is what was left of the character whose end is described in this passage:

 

 

Quote

To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it  oomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.

From Lord of the Rings, Book VI, chapter "The Scouring of the Shire" 

As he was not allowed to return to Valinor and unable to take a physical form, he became little more than a spirit of malice that in the Third Spoke on the Wheel dwells in the Ogier Ways.

 

Elves 

 

Elves who did not go to Valinor suffered a fate far worse than death or even fading that Tolkien described - they lost who they are, became twisted, completely betraying their nature and purpose in the world. They became creatures who left Arda for another world, or at least another dimension. There they became known as the Eelfinn and Aelfinn. Eru still uses them indirectly to assist Humans, but they lost who they are as people.

 

Heroes of the Horn

 

Look at the item that is able to summon the Heroes - Horn of Valere. That is how it is called. Valere might be a mispronunciation of the term Elves taught Humans: Valar. To be exact, it Valaróma, the horn of Oromë. Whenever it is sounded, Námo, that is Mandos, hears it and released the Heroes from his halls to aid the Armies of the Light.

 

Summary

As I said, I believe the two quite easily dovetail. The important thing to note is that this was obviously not Jordan's intent (unless you believe in the "Author is dead" idea, in which case it probably doesn't matter to you, lol) when creating the series. However,  some stories are very easy to reconcile with one another and make a good case they are the same story beyond just their themes. 

Anyway, that is my theory and head-canon at least. Please share what you think and name some other similarities or theory that could make sense in this.

Thank you in advance!

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 4/7/2023 at 1:34 AM, Rhaegar Targaryen said:

Now, I have mentioned a lot of the times that Tolkien's Legendarium and Jordan's Wheel of Time dovetail very, very well when you let your mind work around it a bit.

General View

Entire story of the Pattern, and all its ages and turnings, happen long after the War of the Ring and the War of Wrath: Morgoth was banished into the Void, and Sauron with him, along with many fallen Maiar. 

After that, Eru the Creator changed the passage of time on Arda so that it is cyclical and that Morgoth could never escape the Void. From age to age, he manages to make a bore in his prison and reaches the world of humanity, who call him Shai'tan and the Dark One. Sauron walks freely in the form of a  Myrddraal who the Forsaken and the Shadowspawn obey in all things, and, of course, bears a particularly telling name "Hand of the Dark" - Shaidar Haran.

Morgoth's Servants

 

This is a well-known cathecism. So the main thing in it is that Shai'tan was imprisoned together with his servants from the beginning. As we know, this can't possibly be true about the Forsaken. But maybe this is not false on itself and based on a memory that the Dark One really was imprisoned with his great servants from the beginnng - those servants are vastly more horrible than the Forsaken: Sauron, Balrogs and all other fallen Maiar.

Mashadar and Machin Shin

Then we have two entities said to be distinct from the Dark One, yet are clearly forces of evil in Wheel of Time: Machin Shin and Mashadar.

For those two I propose this:

1. Mashadar is none other than Ungoliant. We know Mashadar devours everything in its way and that is exactly what Ungoliant cared about. She served Morgoth for a time, but eventually went on to serve her own gluttony. Tolkien mentions that some believe that she eventually devoured herself. It is possible her spirit remained, unable to take physical form, but still driven by hunger, brought to an almost bestial state of mind. (This would mean people of Aridhol didn't create Mashadar, though - they merely awakened Ungoliant somehow). This also offers a parallel for Padan Fain - Gollum was always bringing victims to Shelob, Ungoliant's daughter, so maybe Ungoliant later on chose Fain as her own Gollum who would bring her supplies on which she could feed herself.

 

 

2. Machin Shin is what was left of the character whose end is described in this passage:

 

 

From Lord of the Rings, Book VI, chapter "The Scouring of the Shire" 

As he was not allowed to return to Valinor and unable to take a physical form, he became little more than a spirit of malice that in the Third Spoke on the Wheel dwells in the Ogier Ways.

 

Elves 

 

Elves who did not go to Valinor suffered a fate far worse than death or even fading that Tolkien described - they lost who they are, became twisted, completely betraying their nature and purpose in the world. They became creatures who left Arda for another world, or at least another dimension. There they became known as the Eelfinn and Aelfinn. Eru still uses them indirectly to assist Humans, but they lost who they are as people.

 

Heroes of the Horn

 

Look at the item that is able to summon the Heroes - Horn of Valere. That is how it is called. Valere might be a mispronunciation of the term Elves taught Humans: Valar. To be exact, it Valaróma, the horn of Oromë. Whenever it is sounded, Námo, that is Mandos, hears it and released the Heroes from his halls to aid the Armies of the Light.

 

Summary

As I said, I believe the two quite easily dovetail. The important thing to note is that this was obviously not Jordan's intent (unless you believe in the "Author is dead" idea, in which case it probably doesn't matter to you, lol) when creating the series. However,  some stories are very easy to reconcile with one another and make a good case they are the same story beyond just their themes. 

Anyway, that is my theory and head-canon at least. Please share what you think and name some other similarities or theory that could make sense in this.

Thank you in advance!

I have been intending to respond to your well laid out theory, but it turns out that you are much more intelligent than I am! I’m responding now just to let you know I appreciated and enjoyed reading your theory, despite not being able to contribute to it 

Edited April 19, 2023 by Lightfriendsocialmistress

[Rhaegar Targaryen]

Thanks a lot, your enthusiasm means a lot to me:)

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

35 minutes ago, Rhaegar Targaryen said:

Thanks a lot, your enthusiasm means a lot to me:)

I like your name, btw, asoiaf is very dear to me 

[Kalessin]

I've occasionally played around with such what-ifs and might-possiblys - after all " 'From Stone to Stone run the lines of "if," between the worlds that might be." 😀 "

 

But I've usually posed what-ifs along the lines of how would Harry Harrison's Yilane react to meeting Tolkien's Eldar? How would Brian Aldiss's phagors (ancipitals) react to meeting Tad Williams' Sithi? Etc ... What sort of story would result from the Eldar and the Sithi meeting up Helliconia? Would Elric of Melnibone, Prince of Ruins, feel threatened by meeting Melian in Menegroth? Meeting Seoman (Simon) Snowlock in Green Angel Tower facing off with Ineluki? Would Finrod Felagund feel quite at home in Tanelorn? Etc ...

[wotfan4472]

I myself love this theory!! 

 

The only issue, is that Tolkein swung between Ungoliant eating herself to death, or Earendel killed her while he was sailing on Vingilot before the Third Kinslaying happened.

I would think of replacing Ungoliant with Shelob, for Mashadar and even Sauron himself for Saruman, and Machin Shin would work.

 

Everything else fits really well. Even Eru works in this. There need a few additions to expand the theory further.

 

Having some of the Valar inside the Wheel and reinforcing the Pattern, which both Aule and Varda would do with the Dwarves for the Wheel, while Mandos runs the Pattern, then other Vala like Manwe, Ulmo, Yavanna, Lorien, and Melian working with the Eldar in creating each of the five energies that make up the One Power makes total sense.

 

As for Manwe, he is leader in all projects, but especially in making the One Power, since he is in charge of Air in all its aspects.

 

It is even cooler if the Dark One is a totally different entity altogether.

 

With this theory, all of them, and include all three kindreds, would lock away the Dark One the first time, then send one of the commanding Edain as a soul into the Wheel to fight him, while all the Edain are reborn in bodies, and are in Valinor when dead. 

Edited May 25, 2023 by wotfan4472

[Rhaegar Targaryen]

@wotfan4472 I like the way you think!

 

 

On 5/25/2023 at 6:28 PM, wotfan4472 said:

Having some of the Valar inside the Wheel and reinforcing the Pattern, which both Aule and Varda would do with the Dwarves for the Wheel, while Mandos runs the Pattern, then other Vala like Manwe, Ulmo, Yavanna, Lorien, and Melian working with the Eldar in creating each of the five energies that make up the One Power makes total sense.

 

Theory: Nakomi is Nienna walking the world and trying to help the Humankind as much as she can. She was said to be the Vala of pity and compassion after all. Maybe she has decided to walk the world in human form and be with them at least by presence.

 

 

You could say the Sea Folk revere Ulmo and the Ogier might be worshipping Yavanna, Oromë or Vána as their gods.

[wotfan4472]

On 5/27/2023 at 7:32 PM, Rhaegar Targaryen said:

@wotfan4472 I like the way you think!

 

 

 

Theory: Nakomi is Nienna walking the world and trying to help the Humankind as much as she can. She was said to be the Vala of pity and compassion after all. Maybe she has decided to walk the world in human form and be with them at least by presence.

 

 

You could say the Sea Folk revere Ulmo and the Ogier might be worshipping Yavanna, Oromë or Vána as their gods.

Yes, Nienna would so work in that position, and feels like an extension of what she did before. Almost as if Gandalf encouraged her to do so when he returned. 

[Scarloc99]

When you consider that Tolkien is the grandfather of all fantasy and inspireRobert Jordan directly, and that Tolkien’s own inspiration came from the myths, legends and stories of our own ancestors then it is easy to draw parallels between LOTR and WOT. In fact I have seen this very comparison played out on forums about most fantasy book series, how the series mirrors LOTR. 
 

I will say however that I also think comparisons here are more a desire to see something that actually isn’t there. Robert Jordan structured his own world with his own thoughts and ideas and, while he was no doubt inspired, in many cases patterns seen at a distance are usually the human brain trying to find links. 
 

On this the human brain is remarkable, you can show a person a picture of a natural surface, for instance another planet, and they will instantly see patterns and refuse to accept they are natural. The same is true for art, people want to see influences and so pull out threads that are not actually there. Robert Jordan said many times he was inspsired by Tolkien as an author, but WOT was not inspired by LOTR other then his publisher asked for a LOTR style fantasy story so book 1 mirrors many of the tropes. I feel RJ drew his cultural and story ideas for WOT direct from many sources, some of which may also have inspired Tolkien. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 7/30/2023 at 12:24 PM, Sir_Charrid said:

When you consider that Tolkien is the grandfather of all fantasy and inspireRobert Jordan directly, and that Tolkien’s own inspiration came from the myths, legends and stories of our own ancestors then it is easy to draw parallels between LOTR and WOT. In fact I have seen this very comparison played out on forums about most fantasy book series, how the series mirrors LOTR. 
 

I will say however that I also think comparisons here are more a desire to see something that actually isn’t there. Robert Jordan structured his own world with his own thoughts and ideas and, while he was no doubt inspired, in many cases patterns seen at a distance are usually the human brain trying to find links. 
 

On this the human brain is remarkable, you can show a person a picture of a natural surface, for instance another planet, and they will instantly see patterns and refuse to accept they are natural. The same is true for art, people want to see influences and so pull out threads that are not actually there. Robert Jordan said many times he was inspsired by Tolkien as an author, but WOT was not inspired by LOTR other then his publisher asked for a LOTR style fantasy story so book 1 mirrors many of the tropes. I feel RJ drew his cultural and story ideas for WOT direct from many sources, some of which may also have inspired Tolkien. 

True. Content is categorized into genres for a reason. It’s valid IMO to pay homage and give credit and respect to the pioneers and forerunners who inspired the genre, but I don’t see why every future creation within the genre needs to be forever compared to the original and considered less valuable or innovative simply because it’s derivative in some way.