Perrin susceptible to compulsion?

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

We recently learned that lanfear was indeed able to use some form of compulsion on Perrin in the final book, making him believe he killed her. I’m rereading the series for the first time, and I just came across a passage from ACOS where Rand is contemplating why Perrin is so adamant that the aes sedai prisoners not be harmed and he wonders if he was manipulated by the power in some way. In hindsight, and admittedly Rand isn’t necessarily thinking clearly, but could he have been right?

[Some_random_novice]

I doubt it because from what we have seen Perrin is (out of them all) the more peaceful character who doesn’t want to constantly escalate to violence. So it would make sense that he doesn’t what to harm the Aes Sedai since he doesn’t want violence unless absolutely necessary to him. 

Rand probably wasn’t thinking to clearly, he is very paranoid and thinks most things are out to get him. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

9 hours ago, Some_random_novice said:

I doubt it because from what we have seen Perrin is (out of them all) the more peaceful character who doesn’t want to constantly escalate to violence. So it would make sense that he doesn’t what to harm the Aes Sedai since he doesn’t want violence unless absolutely necessary to him. 

Rand probably wasn’t thinking to clearly, he is very paranoid and thinks most things are out to get him. 

True. And in this case it turns out Rand’s paranoia was justified…the aes sedai Perrin is so intent on protecting did actually do heinous things to Rand. There’s also that running theme with the three boys about not harming women under any circumstances. I’m sure you’re right, Perrin was probably just acting according to his morals. Even if lanfear had some ability to use compulsion on him, I’m not sure how likely it would be for any regular aes sedai to be successful at it or even know the weaves. 

[Sabio]

Even if an Aes Sedai could do compulsion, no Aes Sedai would willingly admit to knowing anything about compulsion since it's forbidden.  Verin seems to know a crude form she used on the Aes Sedai prisoners.  We know Ny can delve and see compulsion on someone.

 

 

Edited March 25, 2023 by Sabio

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

I wonder if Lanfear succeeded in compulsion in anyone else we weren’t aware of. It seems to me at the least that something of the sort is involved in creating the reaction of everyone thinking she’s the most beautiful woman they’ve ever seen. Usually that’s a little more subjective to the individual, but the characters all have such a strong reaction, even loial. Maybe not compulsion exactly but it doesn’t seem entirely natural to me. 

[Gary Again]

He is in a relationship with Faile so he probably is susceptible to compulsion (sorry had to do it). I personally didn't think Perrin was compulsed as I thought his position was consistent with the way that Rand Mat and Perrin behave by default. I think that is part of what ticked Rand off was Perrin was saying exactly what Rand wanted to naturally do but couldn't. Rand was the one acting against his nature and Perrin bringing it up over and over just kept throwing it in Rands face. It's interesting though I definitely could see it as I think compulsion works best if it is in alignment with someone's core belief, so the compulsion could have been to keep pushing Rand with something Perrin also believed to drive a wedge between them. Which makes the whole acting of a blowup even more effective, if someone did compulse Perrin they would be more likely to believe that the blowup is real and their plan worked. I think there is a theme of intricate well laid plans falling apart due to Ta'veren shenanigans so I do like this idea that someone had a plan to drive a wedge between Rand and Perrin giving them the perfect opportunity to hide what Perrin was going to do. 

 

I have gone through a reread and have been looking at some of the old threads and one interesting area of compulsion that was mentioned that made a lot of sense was Aran'gar and Egwene. It was in the book that Graendal had Aran'gar use compulsion on the guy Rand sent in to Natrin's Barrow and she specifically wanted intricate and complex compulsion to make it difficult to figure out what was going on so it is established that Aran'gar was good with compulsion. Then you have the fierceness that Egwene opposed Rand with breaking the seals, she wanted control of the armies and in that moment where it seemed Rand's Ta'veren nature was about to swing things Egwene stopped it dead. The whole field of Merrilor was falling apart if Moraine didn't show up so this theory made a lot of sense to me. 

 

 

Edited March 25, 2023 by Gary Again

[Sabio]

I don't think compulsion was used, if you noticed Eg acted the same way as when LTT proposed his plan.  The whole point in causing the headaches was to make sure Eg needed her.  Had Aran'gar used compulsion then the headaches wouldn't have been necessary.

 

It would help if we knew when exactly Lanfear used compulsion on Perrin.  It could be she started when they began speaking in the dream world in order to make him friendlier to her then he normally would be.  Planting the seed for when she could put her plan into action.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Sabio

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 3/25/2023 at 6:11 AM, Gary Again said:

He is in a relationship with Faile so he probably is susceptible to compulsion (sorry had to do it). I personally didn't think Perrin was compulsed as I thought his position was consistent with the way that Rand Mat and Perrin behave by default. I think that is part of what ticked Rand off was Perrin was saying exactly what Rand wanted to naturally do but couldn't. Rand was the one acting against his nature and Perrin bringing it up over and over just kept throwing it in Rands face. It's interesting though I definitely could see it as I think compulsion works best if it is in alignment with someone's core belief, so the compulsion could have been to keep pushing Rand with something Perrin also believed to drive a wedge between them. Which makes the whole acting of a blowup even more effective, if someone did compulse Perrin they would be more likely to believe that the blowup is real and their plan worked. I think there is a theme of intricate well laid plans falling apart due to Ta'veren shenanigans so I do like this idea that someone had a plan to drive a wedge between Rand and Perrin giving them the perfect opportunity to hide what Perrin was going to do. 

 

I have gone through a reread and have been looking at some of the old threads and one interesting area of compulsion that was mentioned that made a lot of sense was Aran'gar and Egwene. It was in the book that Graendal had Aran'gar use compulsion on the guy Rand sent in to Natrin's Barrow and she specifically wanted intricate and complex compulsion to make it difficult to figure out what was going on so it is established that Aran'gar was good with compulsion. Then you have the fierceness that Egwene opposed Rand with breaking the seals, she wanted control of the armies and in that moment where it seemed Rand's Ta'veren nature was about to swing things Egwene stopped it dead. The whole field of Merrilor was falling apart if Moraine didn't show up so this theory made a lot of sense to me. 

 

 

Your comments make sense to me too, I always wondered and still wonder how much influence Aran’gar actually had over Egwene. My favorite thing about your post was the Faile part 😂

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 3/26/2023 at 4:53 PM, Sabio said:

I don't think compulsion was used, if you noticed Eg the same way as when LTT proposed his plan.  The whole point in causing the headaches was to make sure Eg needed her.  Had Aran'gar used compulsion then the headaches wouldn't have been necessary.

 

It would help if we knew when exactly Lanfear used compulsion on Perrin.  It could be she started when they began speaking in the dream world in order to make him friendlier to her then he normally would be.  Planting the seed for when she could put her plan into action.

Good points. I would love to know how far back Lanfears influence on Perrin actually goes. 

[Aan-Alone]

The 'When' is an extremely important point. I'm curious...was Graendal(sp?) able to capture/compel any of the Wise One Dreamwalkers during the Last Battle? I ask because they were closest to Perrin's skill level in T'A'R.

 

Having said all that, I put forth that if Perrin was compulsed(sp?), it had to have been before he could defuse OP weaves in T'A'R. Had anyone tried to compel Perrin after that milestone, I feel Perrin would have immediately sensed the intrusion in his mind. Proof is Perrin's ability to sense the wolves. And the wolves ability to enter Perrin's mind on a sub-conscious level where they would watch over his dreams.

 

Thinking about this further, one could argue this makes Perrin immune to compulsion, unless he was compelled during his youth in the Two Rivers. Had Perrin been compelled after the wolf connection was established, I feel the wolves would have remarked on the personality change or perhaps stopped communicating with him. No proof here, just a gut feeling.

 

Another gut feeling, and somewhat off-topic...how many of the female Forsaken, in female bodies, actually died...as in final deaths - no resurrections? My memory is really foggy here but I don't think any did. Lanfear would have been the first in the series then. I'll leave this idea for now. If it has merit, I think it should have a separate topic. I don't mind necro-rezzing but no need to derail a topic I didn't start.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Aan-Alone
Grammar

[Storeebooq]

I don't think Perrin is immune to compulsion...but using it on him successfully probably took a lot of care and sublty, which I know Lanfear was capable of. 

 

My interpretation is that she slowly got to know how he thought and maybe did small weaves on him until the end. She was probably also assisted by the fact the area around the hole in the D.O.'s prison was somewhat in the dream world. Perrin was duped by Lanfear and I applaud how well she did it, cause the readers were duped as well lol